Faith without Works question

[marc]

I've heard of the debate on if Faith alone is needed, or Faith and Works.

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it? If you don't need to do good works, just believe, then it would seem that actions are irrelevant. Of course, then every atrocity is permissible, just as long as you have faith.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it?

As i understand it, 'good works' is about charity efforts over and above simply leading a moral life.
Not murdering people is moral behavior.
Good Works would actually be saving the lives of people. Donating blood, donating bone marrow, food to the shelters...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've heard of the debate on if Faith alone is needed, or Faith and Works.

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it? If you don't need to do good works, just believe, then it would seem that actions are irrelevant. Of course, then every atrocity is permissible, just as long as you have faith.

It gets worse when you consider that Calvinists think that those that don't believe were predestined to not believe.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I've heard of the debate on if Faith alone is needed, or Faith and Works.

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it? If you don't need to do good works, just believe, then it would seem that actions are irrelevant. Of course, then every atrocity is permissible, just as long as you have faith.

The only relevant thing about any person's life is the actions that person takes, whether that person is religious or not. The whole faith alone thing is asinine and could only have been born in some delusional religious mind. To me it's like having faith that you're a billionaire or that you run shelters for the homeless when in fact you are neither.

 

[Sarpedon]

Why are you asking us this?

My view on this is that religions that are big and stable encourage the 'works' point of view, because that is more profitable to them, encouraging followers to provide free labor and publicity to the church. Smaller, more cult-like religions encourage the 'faith' point of view, as it encourages blind obedience and the shunning of outsiders-useful to maintain control of newer and minority religious groups.

Religion is much easier to understand when you look at it in terms of money and power. All that other shit is just a distraction.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It's a cool system for the believers. Consider:
Atheist philanthropist constructs a charitable breakdown of his estate. He goes to hell, obviously.
Osama Bin Laden, if he had grabbed a Bible an hour before his death and decided that the Christian narrative made sense and he would repent -- obviously, he deserves heaven.

 

[doubtingt]

Why are you asking us this?

My view on this is that religions that are big and stable encourage the 'works' point of view, because that is more profitable to them, encouraging followers to provide free labor and publicity to the church. Smaller, more cult-like religions encourage the 'faith' point of view, as it encourages blind obedience and the shunning of outsiders-useful to maintain control of newer and minority religious groups.

Religion is much easier to understand when you look at it in terms of money and power. All that other shit is just a distraction.

^^^THIS^^^

But in addition to understanding that organized religion and its claims are all about money and power, one should consider the psychological motives of the individual believer that attracts them to particular variants on religion. The OP asked why believers proselytize when "good works" are not required. It is true that already established religions versus newer smaller ones differ in the relative increase in power versus threat from new people into the fold. But individuals within any sect also differ in their proselytizing. Proselytizing faith-based beliefs is not about good works, or kindness, or helping others. It is a selfish act that often harms others. Just as institutions can gain power from more people believing, individual's beliefs gains strength and power when others believe. Faith based belief is ultimately based on nothing but the desire for it to be true (or fear of punishment if you don't believe). Thus, it is often characterized by an intense desire to convince oneself that its true coupled with a nagging reality that their is no basis to think that it is. When others believe the same thing, the self-con is easier because we can use their belief as "evidence" that there must be some truth to it. So, when there is no real basis to think something is true but we want to believe it, we try to convince others that it is true because their belief help us maintain our own delusional belief in it.

OF course, if you actually came by a belief honestly and have a reasoned basis for thinking it is true, then you may want to tell others about it out of sincere generosity of letting them know useful information. But if your own belief is faith based than odds are that your "telling" others about it is selfishly motivated to protect yourself from nagging doubts.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I have often heard form the religious that faith alone gets one into heaven. BUT...according to them, having "true faith" means that because of that belief, good, kind, moral acts will come forth. Matthew 7:16

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

This argument is of course, silly because it's pretty easy to demonstrate that Christians are no more moral than the average.

 

[Underseer]

I've heard of the debate on if Faith alone is needed, or Faith and Works.

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it? If you don't need to do good works, just believe, then it would seem that actions are irrelevant. Of course, then every atrocity is permissible, just as long as you have faith.

Because all you need is faith.

Once you learn to accept conclusions without evidence, you will automagically become a better person and start making better decisions. This is why all Christians are morally superior to all non-Christians, especially atheists. [/Christian]

 

[steve_bnk]

I think the short answer is many Christians derive a mandate from the NT to go out and evangelize.

I have met Christians who believe they are saved by accepting Jesus alone.

 

[Underseer]

Why are you asking us this?

My view on this is that religions that are big and stable encourage the 'works' point of view, because that is more profitable to them, encouraging followers to provide free labor and publicity to the church. Smaller, more cult-like religions encourage the 'faith' point of view, as it encourages blind obedience and the shunning of outsiders-useful to maintain control of newer and minority religious groups.

Religion is much easier to understand when you look at it in terms of money and power. All that other shit is just a distraction.

Are you sure about that?

Because it seems to me that most proselytizers from most denominations insist that all you need is to "accept Jesus into your heart" and you will be saved. That certainly sounds like they're pushing a faith-without-works theology to me.

 

[Sarpedon]

I'm absolutely sure of it.

In the case of recruiting, the hook comes first, the collection plate later.

However, the distinction still holds. The street preacher religions tend to be the cult-like model. Lots of the 'works' religions use their charitable institutions to do their recruiting. I've never seen a catholic priest preaching on the street, but I've been to catholic hospitals, catholic soup kitchens, catholic homeless shelters, catholic schools. All of these institutions are used for recruiting, and all of them benefit from the 'works' model. This doesn't stop a religion from using both of the above, after all, religions evolve naturally, and rarely come about as a master scheme of some crazed genius.

 

[Perspicuo]

Bottom line, except for fanatics, all Christians believe that goodness is both believing and doing good.

The faith versus works thing was basically against the Roman Catholic Church's extremely corrupt system for winning heaven by means of giving your money, doing masses and pilgrimages, and other sacrifices to purge your sins. Which makes no sense if Christ already did that for you, and all you have to do is turn your ways if you still sin, which you must be doing if you are a human being.

Other parts also made no sense, but don't worry, it's all about the politics of people control.

 

[Atheos]

There aren't many doctrinal issues over which the gamut of christianity is split like this one. There was way too much trying to appeal to everyone back in the formative years for there to ever be a consensus today. Since there's no such thing as salvation it's little wonder that the mechanics by which it is achieved is as discernible as the methodology Santa uses to determine which kids were naughty and which were nice. Pretty much the same thing in the long run.

 

[DBT]

I've heard of the debate on if Faith alone is needed, or Faith and Works.

What I wonder is, if Faith alone is needed, then why bother preaching about morality, and trying to get others to conform to it? If you don't need to do good works, just believe, then it would seem that actions are irrelevant. Of course, then every atrocity is permissible, just as long as you have faith.

Given the narrative, apparently there is nothing you can do that wasn't ordained from the beginning of time:


“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” - Romans 9:21-23

John 3:17 “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.”

There goes both faith and works...gone to predestination.

 

[braces_for_impact]

How can Christians be sure when the bible is contradictory on the subject? So much for objective morality.