Far-right presidential candidate leading in Austria

[iolo]

Some of them, doubtless, are longing to control immigration as did their famous countryman, Hitler. Austria, unfortunately, was never de-Nazified.

Austria is very tolerant. I met engineers there from Asia who were working there in major companies. You will find some Filipinos working in hotels and foreign workers. It's not clear whether the right wing will decline after this point.

I think that, historically, the towns and cities have always been decent, the countryside blackly reactionary, and I understand that this election conforms entirely to the historical pattern.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Austria is very tolerant. I met engineers there from Asia who were working there in major companies. You will find some Filipinos working in hotels and foreign workers. It's not clear whether the right wing will decline after this point.

I think that, historically, the towns and cities have always been decent, the countryside blackly reactionary, and I understand that this election conforms entirely to the historical pattern.

In the UK the UKIP which includes some of ethnic backgrounds has gained support against economic migration but believes in 'reasonable migration to fill certain jobs' and asylum seekers.
I think the countryside may be as you said. I only visited Austria 2 or 3 times on business for my employer(s).

 

[SimpleDon]

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The margin was extremely small. The right has exploited the situation where immigration is not properly controlled. The increasing levels of immigration (non asylum seekers) is far above the level many European countries can cope with when they have enough economic problems of their own.

So if the levels are above a sensible amount, then shouldn't the right win some fucking elections to send a message for the left and center parties to lower immigration? Otherwise there is no accountability.

The problem is European laws preside over national laws. Economic migration is sort of fused with Asylum, usually from countries the US and allies started wars in. In such circumstances, such as high unemployment, and mass economic migration the right is bound to gain support. Ideally we don't need very much in the way of imported labour. Where we do this should be only on the basis that the person already has a work contract whereupon the British or other European Embassy provide a work visa which the sponsor (employer) has applied for.
The left don't care so much because they are driving in future voters for their parties.

The obsession with the supposed evils of immigration is a helpful in understanding of how the right's very narrow worldview limits their understanding of any ongoing situation or event.

All of the developed countries are trending toward one major problem. The birth rate of the population is becoming too low to replace the current population, that is to keep the population from decreasing. Couple this with the fact that older people are living longer and retiring earlier in some countries, Europe mainly, and you have fewer and fewer workers are supporting more retirees.

The obvious and really the only logical solution is to increase the number of workers by increasing immigration. There is really no problem doing this, there is virtually no limit to the number of people who are willing to migrate to the developed countries to have a better life for themselves and a much better life for their children, who won't be immigrants but who will be fully assimilated in the adopted country of their parents.

And as a group immigrants work harder, depend less on welfare and commit fewer crimes than the native population. But the right's worldview with its knee jerk, automatic outrage reaction to assume that any change like this is for the sole purpose of disadvantaging themselves, means that they can only see the immigrants as lazy shiftless criminals who want to take advantage of the generous welfare programs of the host country. There is no room for the truth in the eyes of the right.

This thread and the posts to it are perfect examples of this myopic vision.

There is high unemployment in countries such as Italy, Greece, Spain and others. Countries like the UK have disguised this with Zero hour contracts where the employer will take the person when there is work. Migrant workers are required but this should be on work contracts signed before they get a visa and enter.
Most work hard but some have welfare and income support for low paid jobs but it can also be a racist comment to suggest that they work harder than local citizens (of all ethnic backgrounds). Other demeaning comments such as immigrants do the jobs local citizens can't do may also be construed as 'racist'.

Without mass migration all the specialist to low paid dirty jobs were still getting done.

There is high unemployment in the PIIGS primarily because of the residual effects of the two things, the Great Financial Crisis and Recession of 2008 and the idiocy of the austerity of 2010 up to today, both products of neoliberalism, the driving philosophy behind the conservative political economics. They of course shouldn't support increased immigration until the EU, and primarily Germany, comes to their collective senses and lifts austerity. But certainly my comments still apply to all of the developed countries in the future, birth rates tend to go down in developed countries because of increased probably of children living to adulthood and the cost of raising children.

I don't believe that guest worker programs work very well. This has been demonstrated nearly everywhere that it has been tried from the US farmworker program, the Bracero Program, from World War II to the mid-sixties to the gastarbeiter in Germany from 1960 to the oil price crisis of the mid-1970's. The programs are touted as temporary programs where the workers will return to their countries when their contracts are up but most become permanent, but in most cases, illegal residents. They are then vilified for the conflicting claims that they don't try to assimilate into the host country and that they don't return to their country of origin. Heads they lose, tails they lose.

There is also the problem of the workers being virtual wage slaves to the firm that holds their contracts. The workers sign for what seems to them to be a large wage compared to what they can make in their own country but which is too low to live on in the host country, especially when the inevitable happened and they wanted their families with them.

Income support for lower paid jobs isn't welfare for the workers, it is a subsidy for the firm that pays the lower wages. If the government didn't subsidize the wages the employer would have to pay more for the work.

It is logically impossible to make a racist statement against people of all ethnic backgrounds, isn't it? What I expressed would be the opposite of xenophobia, which I don't know the proper internet pejorative for.

I still don't fully understand the logic behind all of the racial, ethnic, religious, country of origin, etc. name calling yet. With luck I never will, assuming that it has some logic behind it that is. I prefer to mock people for the logically indefensible positions that they freely take on and express openly, like neoliberalism in its various guises, free market economics, movement conservatism and libertarianism, for example.

And I didn't say or imply that immigrants do jobs that the local citizens can't do but I don't see how this could be construed as being racist, even if the word is put in quotes. But see above, I may not be understanding what you mean. Are you being sarcastic?

And your response you didn't address my main point that the developed countries will eventually need immigration to keep their population from shrinking and that this is a valid use for immigration that the developed countries will eventually have to embrace. Do you have any comment this?

 

[SimpleDon]

Some of them, doubtless, are longing to control immigration as did their famous countryman, Hitler. Austria, unfortunately, was never de-Nazified.

Austria is very tolerant. I met engineers there from Asia who were working there in major companies. You will find some Filipinos working in hotels and foreign workers. It's not clear whether the right wing will decline after this point.

My experience with Austrians and with Austria is the same. My main experience is with Austrians that live and work in Germany. The Germans seem to look down on the Austrians as kind of poor cousins, but most of my personal friends during my four years in Germany were other ex-pats, including three Austrians and their families. My commercial man in the PRC was the son of an Austrian diplomat who had lived in many countries, primarily in the Far East.

But any country is susceptible to the right and eventually, even to the far right. Conservatives have the advantage that they can convert people into being conservative simply by spreading fear. It is their stock and trade to hype threats irrationally. We see this constantly in the US. It ends up in the fascism of a Donald Trump, who tells people that, your problems are due to the illegals and 'those people,' who are taking your jobs and who the government is subsidizing so that they have a better life than you do and only a strongman like me can save you.

 

[SimpleDon]

The window for the far right to act as a gate closer will be gone when all these new people are given expedited voting rights.
Not much time...

Is it any wonder the far right is gaining throughout Europe?

No it isn't. The right recruits by spreading and hyping fear. Some of them are even proud of it and of being members of the right.

In the US it is increasingly difficult to do anything about illegal hispanic immigration because of the hispanic vote. Likewise, when Muslim population of Europe reaches a certain threshold it will become even more difficult to curtail illegal migration of Muslims into Europe. At that point, there will be nothing to stop further mass migration of Muslims and Europe becoming an Islamic society. Fortunately, European countries tend not to have automatic birthright citizenship so there is still some hope.

Imagine that, not being able to do something because of people who have some political power in a democracy. The absolute horror of not being able to prosecute the people who have committed a class 3 misdemeanor against the peace and good order of the US. The FBI is probably wasting their time with more serious crimes like putting household trash in federal trash bins or speeding on federal lands, both class 2 misdemeanors.

Many of FPÖ's policies are bad, but mainstream parties must take the threat of Muslim mass migration seriously. Otherwise, it could get real ugly in Europe. First of all, Angela Merkel should resign. She failed on migration policy in a very epic way.

Merkel is a conservative. She is selling the acceptance of the refugees as a humanitarian effort and as a way of gaining a population of people from those that properly become permanent residents who would at least partly fill their labor shortage.

Germany is a very secular country with a very large atheist population. There is every indication that as early as the second generation the children of the permanent residents become less religious. In Germany if you say that you are religious the government collects 10% of your income and sends it to your church. It is surprising how weak the binding force of religion is under this condition. Would heartly recommend this provision for the US.

Part of properly becoming a permanent resident of Germany is the process of Germanization which includes learning the language and being schooled in the public schools, which are either Catholic or protestant schools.

The Germans learned from the problems with the gastarbeiter program when they isolated the workers and ultimately branded as being illegals. The Germans then complained that the workers failed to assimilate into the German culture. Because they are lazy, no doubt.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Is it any wonder the far right is gaining throughout Europe?

No it isn't. The right recruits by spreading and hyping fear. Some of them are even proud of it and of being members of the right.

In the US it is increasingly difficult to do anything about illegal hispanic immigration because of the hispanic vote. Likewise, when Muslim population of Europe reaches a certain threshold it will become even more difficult to curtail illegal migration of Muslims into Europe. At that point, there will be nothing to stop further mass migration of Muslims and Europe becoming an Islamic society. Fortunately, European countries tend not to have automatic birthright citizenship so there is still some hope.

Imagine that, not being able to do something because of people who have some political power in a democracy. The absolute horror of not being able to prosecute the people who have committed a class 3 misdemeanor against the peace and good order of the US. The FBI is probably wasting their time with more serious crimes like putting household trash in federal trash bins or speeding on federal lands, both class 2 misdemeanors.

Many of FPÖ's policies are bad, but mainstream parties must take the threat of Muslim mass migration seriously. Otherwise, it could get real ugly in Europe. First of all, Angela Merkel should resign. She failed on migration policy in a very epic way.

Merkel is a conservative. She is selling the acceptance of the refugees as a humanitarian effort and as a way of gaining a population of people from those that properly become permanent residents who would at least partly fill their labor shortage.

Germany is a very secular country with a very large atheist population. There is every indication that as early as the second generation the children of the permanent residents become less religious. In Germany if you say that you are religious the government collects 10% of your income and sends it to your church. It is surprising how weak the binding force of religion is under this condition. Would heartly recommend this provision for the US.

Part of properly becoming a permanent resident of Germany is the process of Germanization which includes learning the language and being schooled in the public schools, which are either Catholic or protestant schools.

The Germans learned from the problems with the gastarbeiter program when they isolated the workers and ultimately branded as being illegals. The Germans then complained that the workers failed to assimilate into the German culture. Because they are lazy, no doubt.

Religions are tax exempt but accept donations. Thus tax is not necessary. Germany has low unemployment and does not have Zero rated contracts to falsely reduce the figure even further. Nonetheless around 4.8 per cent is till one in 20. Some migration is always welcome but not when in an uncontrolled manner. If 2 per thousand are potentially criminal then it theoretically implies that 2000 in one million could be. Hence with immigration must come better screening to at least minimise if not eliminate such numbers.

If Germany needs workers, let them come in on contracts with a work visa stamped on their passports. This is how Asian countries do this.

The earlier guest workers as I recall lived in camps thus were isolated. Later some mainly Turks did work in mainstream jobs.

 

[Derec]

Austrian government seems to be finally waking up.
Deny migrants right to seek asylum - Austrian foreign minister

Migrants who try to enter Europe illegally by boat should be denied the chance to apply for asylum and be sent back, Austria's foreign minister said in a newspaper interview published on Sunday.
Austria's centrist government promised tougher action on immigration after the far right's candidate very nearly won a presidential election two weeks ago on voter concerns about Europe's biggest peacetime migration crisis.
"Whoever boards a boat and tries to enter Europe illegally has ruined his chances of gaining asylum in Europe and will be sent back," Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz told Swiss newspaper NZZ am Sonntag.

Good for them!

 

[whichphilosophy]

Austrian government seems to be finally waking up.
Deny migrants right to seek asylum - Austrian foreign minister

Migrants who try to enter Europe illegally by boat should be denied the chance to apply for asylum and be sent back, Austria's foreign minister said in a newspaper interview published on Sunday.
Austria's centrist government promised tougher action on immigration after the far right's candidate very nearly won a presidential election two weeks ago on voter concerns about Europe's biggest peacetime migration crisis.
"Whoever boards a boat and tries to enter Europe illegally has ruined his chances of gaining asylum in Europe and will be sent back," Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz told Swiss newspaper NZZ am Sonntag.

Good for them!

It suggests Austria will allow asylum seekers who enter Austria legally.

 

[Derec]

It suggests Austria will allow asylum seekers who enter Austria legally.

Then you have some control over who gets in and how many. As opposed to letting anybody in who is on a dingy in the Mediterranean which has been European policy so far.

They do not exactly look like Syrian refugees to me ...

 

[whichphilosophy]

It suggests Austria will allow asylum seekers who enter Austria legally.

Then you have some control over who gets in and how many. As opposed to letting anybody in who is on a dingy in the Mediterranean which has been European policy so far.

They do not exactly look like Syrian refugees to me ...

It's hardly possible to tell what a refugee looks like, but this has attracted economic migrants and persons with unknown status (thrown ID away and faking country of origin etc).
A stricter policy of this sort is necessary. This will make it easier for asylum seekers to be processed if they enter the country correctly.

 

[Derec]

It's hardly possible to tell what a refugee looks like,

Well it's quite easy to see that these people are not from Syria. And Syrian Civil War is how the "refugees welcome" nonsense was sold to Europeans. Not economic refugees from places like Nigeria or Chad.

You are right that Europe needs stricter policies though. First of all, not let in any boat people and see the number of crossings plummet.

 

[Derec]

They have to repeat the election:
Austria presidential poll result overturned

 

[whichphilosophy]

They have to repeat the election:
Austria presidential poll result overturned

Do you think that Herr Hoffler could be the new Fuhrer. That will sure give the EU countries something to think about.