# Firearms and home invasion/defence, split from Rants

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
We have a repeat offender criminal that keeps trying to break into our office.

The guy likely got into our place a few times before we noticed. Then one time he stole the petty cash and our pool car. We hadn't noticed he stole the pool car. We were kind of okay with the pool car getting stolen. Not the petty cash, but the pool car...

So, filed police report, blah blah. Breaks in again. He is like that robot on Futurama in the first season when Fry is locked up in a robot mental health institute. We get him on video breaking and fix some inadequacies to our entry. We are inside a building and in an isolated area, so at the right times of day, you can do a lot without being noticed.

At this point, we are satisfied that the tenet and our company have taken security seriously and think we are set. Then to have the alarms going off on the weekend, with the guy climbing up and over the door through the drop ceiling!

And just recently, he was caught trying to drill into our door, by luckily two large males who could manage themselves after he tried to strangle one of them. He wasn't armed.

This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.

#### Gospel

##### Aethiopian
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.

Nah, all you need is a real goon in the office. I'm that goon. At my job people don't like my street mentality until situations like what Jimmy mentioned. Then all of a sudden they all crowd my desk talking about some shirtless dude sleeping by the mailbox. I just go out and say "yo yo yo you can't be out here bruh!" while tugging up at my belt and they usually say sorry and leave.

Edit: And if they really want a fight I got it all gift wrapped and ready to unpack.

#### crazyfingers

##### Supermagnon
Staff member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.

Nah, all you need is a real goon in the office. I'm that goon. At my job people don't like my street mentality until situations like what Jimmy mentioned. Then all of a sudden they all crowd my desk talking about some shirtless dude sleeping by the mailbox. I just go out and say "yo yo yo you can't be out here bruh!" while tugging up at my belt and they usually say sorry and leave.

Edit: And if they really want a fight I got it all gift wrapped and ready to unpack.
I can't imagine you a goon.

#### Gospel

##### Aethiopian
Oh Imma goon. One with honor, respect, self-respect, respect for others, respect for the law, respect for women, respect for everyone's rights even the rights of those who hate me with a passion.

Edit: But, I'm very happy to lay the smack down on candy ass where appropriate.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?

#### Toni

##### Contributor
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
Only cowardly wannabe tough guys.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.

Nah, all you need is a real goon in the office. I'm that goon. At my job people don't like my street mentality until situations like what Jimmy mentioned. Then all of a sudden they all crowd my desk talking about some shirtless dude sleeping by the mailbox. I just go out and say "yo yo yo you can't be out here bruh!" while tugging up at my belt and they usually say sorry and leave.

Edit: And if they really want a fight I got it all gift wrapped and ready to unpack.
If we were fully stocked ie not much of a pandemic and partial crewing, we have a couple ex-football players at one point or another in their lives. One of them is soft spoken and formidable, the other is soft spoken and very formidable, as in a Mack Truck. Way back, we had a state level amateur wrestler. But right place, right time (or wrong) sort of thing.

This person needs some level of help, the police are very familiar with him. But the system in the US doesn't help the mentally ill. Reagan helped see a big part of that and lower funding from states has been critical to killing budgeting for services for people that need it. The trouble with people with mental health issues is that they are a tad unpredictable.

Hopefully they don't come back. Hopefully they finally get whatever they need to become more functional. Hopefully no one gets hurt.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
Only cowardly wannabe tough guys.
The trouble with a firearm in this situation (excluding obvious moral issues), you pull the gun, you almost are going to have to use it. Pulling the gun means you have given up, because if he takes one step, you have to fire, because if he (The mentally ill person you just pulled a gun at) gets it....

So clearly, such an escalation, when other non-lethal avenues are available, seems short-sighted.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
The trouble with a firearm in this situation (excluding obvious moral issues), you pull the gun, you almost are going to have to use it. Pulling the gun means you have given up, because if he takes one step, you have to fire, because if he (The mentally ill person you just pulled a gun at) gets it....

So clearly, such an escalation, when other non-lethal avenues are available, seems short-sighted.

You've already said that you've reached a point where you can't protect your workers against a possibly lethal threat (attempting to strangle someone can easily be lethal even when the attacker didn't intend it to be--blood chokes are safe, airway chokes are decidedly unsafe and should be considered lethal force) and you say there are non-lethal options? Like what, abandoning the office?

The fact that he's mentally ill has nothing to do with this.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.

I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun. The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.

I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun. The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun.
I don't.

Mainly because I am insinuating no such thing.

That you assume such lurid beliefs on the part of people who haven't expressed them suggests strongly that you are not sufficiently stable as to be trusted with lethal weapons.
The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.
Or, as those of us in the civilised world would put it, 'never'.

Almost nobody is ever in such a situation in the developed world. You might as well invest in a safe to store your winnings, just in case you win the lottery, as invest in a firearm, just in case you are in a position where the employment of lethal force is practically achievable, unavoidable, and essential to save lives.

It's something that only happens in fantasy (such as that routinely presented by Hollywood).

Real guns are not defensive devices.

I have no problem at all with guns for hunting; For sporting purposes such as target shooting; For warfare; Or even in extreme situations for law enforcement.

But the gun for self defence is a delusional fantasy, and a highly dangerous one at that.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Jimmy's original post stated that there was a real threat of someone in the office being assaulted by this mentally ill person, and that they had been unable to come up with a plan to keep the employees in the office safe. He actually said this twice (highlighted above), so he clearly believes the threat to be credible. The police have been apparently called in, and the person has been arrested multiple times, but he continues to be a threat. How does an office worker who has no training in dealing with a potentially violent, mentally ill person handle the situation if it does happen, following the scenario that Jimmy talks about? What if this mentally ill person is armed?

Such events are rare, but they do happen. I was robbed at gunpoint 31 years ago in Atlanta while walking back to my apartment from the GT campus. I wasn't hurt that day, but it could easily have turned out differently.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
Its not just the mentally ill, there are also armed criminals. I think of my CWP as an insurance policy; I hope never to use it, but I have it just in case I do.

I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun.
I don't.

Mainly because I am insinuating no such thing.

That you assume such lurid beliefs on the part of people who haven't expressed them suggests strongly that you are not sufficiently stable as to be trusted with lethal weapons.
There you go again. Saying that people are mentally unstable because they pointed out that some adults have the emotional and intellectual maturity, as well as the appropriate training to allow themselves to legally carry firearms without being a threat to people around them.

The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.
Or, as those of us in the civilised world would put it, 'never'.

Almost nobody is ever in such a situation in the developed world. You might as well invest in a safe to store your winnings, just in case you win the lottery, as invest in a firearm, just in case you are in a position where the employment of lethal force is practically achievable, unavoidable, and essential to save lives.

It's something that only happens in fantasy (such as that routinely presented by Hollywood).

Real guns are not defensive devices.

I have no problem at all with guns for hunting; For sporting purposes such as target shooting; For warfare; Or even in extreme situations for law enforcement.

But the gun for self defence is a delusional fantasy, and a highly dangerous one at that.
My life experiences over the past 55 years tell me otherwise. Come walk a mile in my shoes before you pass judgement.

Speaking of security, we had engaged the services of a crack security ninja cat to guard our home about 16 months ago. But as soon as the long-term employment contract was signed and the cat established in our home, said security ninja turned into a slacker who spends his days guarding his bed on the couch, or my lap. Such is life:

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Jimmy's original post stated that there was a real threat of someone in the office being assaulted by this mentally ill person, and that they had been unable to come up with a plan to keep the employees in the office safe. He actually said this twice (highlighted above), so he clearly believes the threat to be credible. The police have been apparently called in, and the person has been arrested multiple times, but he continues to be a threat. How does an office worker who has no training in dealing with a potentially violent, mentally ill person handle the situation if it does happen, following the scenario that Jimmy talks about? What if this mentally ill person is armed?

Such events are rare, but they do happen. I was robbed at gunpoint 31 years ago in Atlanta while walking back to my apartment from the GT campus. I wasn't hurt that day, but it could easily have turned out differently.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
Its not just the mentally ill, there are also armed criminals. I think of my CWP as an insurance policy; I hope never to use it, but I have it just in case I do.

I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun.
I don't.

Mainly because I am insinuating no such thing.

That you assume such lurid beliefs on the part of people who haven't expressed them suggests strongly that you are not sufficiently stable as to be trusted with lethal weapons.
There you go again. Saying that people are mentally unstable because they pointed out that some adults have the emotional and intellectual maturity, as well as the appropriate training to allow themselves to legally carry firearms without being a threat to people around them.
I never suggested that 'some adults' lacked that stability; Only that your statements suggested that you aren't one of them
The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.
Or, as those of us in the civilised world would put it, 'never'.

Almost nobody is ever in such a situation in the developed world. You might as well invest in a safe to store your winnings, just in case you win the lottery, as invest in a firearm, just in case you are in a position where the employment of lethal force is practically achievable, unavoidable, and essential to save lives.

It's something that only happens in fantasy (such as that routinely presented by Hollywood).

Real guns are not defensive devices.

I have no problem at all with guns for hunting; For sporting purposes such as target shooting; For warfare; Or even in extreme situations for law enforcement.

But the gun for self defence is a delusional fantasy, and a highly dangerous one at that.
My life experiences over the past 55 years tell me otherwise. Come walk a mile in my shoes before you pass judgement.
No, I shall pass judgement just fine based on my own extensive and directly relevant experience, thanks all the same.
Speaking of security, we had engaged the services of a crack security ninja cat to guard our home about 16 months ago. But as soon as the long-term employment contract was signed and the cat established in our home, said security ninja turned into a slacker who spends his days guarding his bed on the couch, or my lap. Such is life:

View attachment 36653View attachment 36654

No matter how cute your cat is, it remains true that a gun isn't a defensive device.

I suspect that most Americans have little grasp of the meaning of the word 'defence'.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Jimmy's original post stated that there was a real threat of someone in the office being assaulted by this mentally ill person, and that they had been unable to come up with a plan to keep the employees in the office safe. He actually said this twice (highlighted above), so he clearly believes the threat to be credible. The police have been apparently called in, and the person has been arrested multiple times, but he continues to be a threat. How does an office worker who has no training in dealing with a potentially violent, mentally ill person handle the situation if it does happen, following the scenario that Jimmy talks about? What if this mentally ill person is armed?

Such events are rare, but they do happen. I was robbed at gunpoint 31 years ago in Atlanta while walking back to my apartment from the GT campus. I wasn't hurt that day, but it could easily have turned out differently.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
Its not just the mentally ill, there are also armed criminals. I think of my CWP as an insurance policy; I hope never to use it, but I have it just in case I do.
The guy was seen walking around the building our office is in again. My company has changed policy again on access, which we were waiting for. This will make it pretty hard for him to get into our office again, without a bunch of brute force. I actually use an alternative entry which I think, for the moment is more secure.

Regarding concealed weapons, as I noted before, the trouble with a gun, and especially of our entry layout, there is virtually no room to move much. If the guy takes a couple step, gun is out and you have to shoot. And you can't draw the gun and leave the scene quickly to avoid an engagement. When you draw a gun, you are actually eliminating many of your options.

#### Gospel

##### Aethiopian
I suspect that most Americans have little grasp of the meaning of the word 'defence'.

That depends on which of the multiverses your dictionary comes from. Judging by how you spell it you live on earth's surface somewhere so what's your excuse? "The action of defending from or resisting attack" can be anything from throwing water balloons at an attacker to blasting them with a bazooka.

Edit: It can also be turning tail and running (which I'm certain you're familiar with since you abandoned logic as often as possible).

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Jimmy's original post stated that there was a real threat of someone in the office being assaulted by this mentally ill person, and that they had been unable to come up with a plan to keep the employees in the office safe. He actually said this twice (highlighted above), so he clearly believes the threat to be credible. The police have been apparently called in, and the person has been arrested multiple times, but he continues to be a threat. How does an office worker who has no training in dealing with a potentially violent, mentally ill person handle the situation if it does happen, following the scenario that Jimmy talks about? What if this mentally ill person is armed?

Such events are rare, but they do happen. I was robbed at gunpoint 31 years ago in Atlanta while walking back to my apartment from the GT campus. I wasn't hurt that day, but it could easily have turned out differently.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
Its not just the mentally ill, there are also armed criminals. I think of my CWP as an insurance policy; I hope never to use it, but I have it just in case I do.
The guy was seen walking around the building our office is in again. My company has changed policy again on access, which we were waiting for. This will make it pretty hard for him to get into our office again, without a bunch of brute force. I actually use an alternative entry which I think, for the moment is more secure.
You have to bring it up with the office leadership and ask them to resolve it. Your employer cannot reasonably expect people to show up for work when there is a credible threat to the safety of the people in the office.

Has this person been given a formal trespass notice by anyone in your workplace? If not, you need to this the next time he shows up, and do this with the police present. If yes, the police can arrest him for criminal trespass the next time he shows up, and he would likely be looking at either jail time or some period of incarceration in a mental health facility. Its a temporary solution, but you have to do everything you can to get all your ducks lined up.

Regarding concealed weapons, as I noted before, the trouble with a gun, and especially of our entry layout, there is virtually no room to move much. If the guy takes a couple step, gun is out and you have to shoot. And you can't draw the gun and leave the scene quickly to avoid an engagement. When you draw a gun, you are actually eliminating many of your options.
Guns are a last resort, and an option only for those people who have been trained in all the safety and legal protocols and successfully completed a concealed weapons certification class which is required by many/most states, and for situations where a gun might be used to defend yourself/somebody else without putting other people in harm's way. Your employer likely has a policy that forbids employees from carrying guns into the office, which makes the point moot.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
And if that mentally ill person decided that you looked like the spawn of Satan, and he was going to send you back to Hell using the 4-inch knife he carries in his backpack, that concealed firearm may just save your life.
Sure.

And if he had a time machine, he could go back in time and kill your grandfather.

Jimmy's original post stated that there was a real threat of someone in the office being assaulted by this mentally ill person, and that they had been unable to come up with a plan to keep the employees in the office safe. He actually said this twice (highlighted above), so he clearly believes the threat to be credible. The police have been apparently called in, and the person has been arrested multiple times, but he continues to be a threat. How does an office worker who has no training in dealing with a potentially violent, mentally ill person handle the situation if it does happen, following the scenario that Jimmy talks about? What if this mentally ill person is armed?

Such events are rare, but they do happen. I was robbed at gunpoint 31 years ago in Atlanta while walking back to my apartment from the GT campus. I wasn't hurt that day, but it could easily have turned out differently.

But meanwhile in reality, mentally ill people are far more at risk, than they are posing a risk.

The nutter who suddenly kills at random isn't a threat that's sufficiently common as to justify precautions against it - EVEN if you are already regularly interacting with a mentally ill person.
Its not just the mentally ill, there are also armed criminals. I think of my CWP as an insurance policy; I hope never to use it, but I have it just in case I do.

I think you do a disservice to all the people who carry firearms responsibly and in full conformance with the law by insinuating that every concealed weapons permit holder is out lusting for blood, and is unable to respond to a potentially threatening situation without drawing their gun.
I don't.

Mainly because I am insinuating no such thing.

That you assume such lurid beliefs on the part of people who haven't expressed them suggests strongly that you are not sufficiently stable as to be trusted with lethal weapons.
There you go again. Saying that people are mentally unstable because they pointed out that some adults have the emotional and intellectual maturity, as well as the appropriate training to allow themselves to legally carry firearms without being a threat to people around them.
I never suggested that 'some adults' lacked that stability; Only that your statements suggested that you aren't one of them
The gun is a last resort, to be used when there is an immediate threat to your life, or the life of someone in your vicinity, and you have no way to safely walk away from the threat without drawing the weapon.
Or, as those of us in the civilised world would put it, 'never'.

Almost nobody is ever in such a situation in the developed world. You might as well invest in a safe to store your winnings, just in case you win the lottery, as invest in a firearm, just in case you are in a position where the employment of lethal force is practically achievable, unavoidable, and essential to save lives.

It's something that only happens in fantasy (such as that routinely presented by Hollywood).

Real guns are not defensive devices.

I have no problem at all with guns for hunting; For sporting purposes such as target shooting; For warfare; Or even in extreme situations for law enforcement.

But the gun for self defence is a delusional fantasy, and a highly dangerous one at that.
My life experiences over the past 55 years tell me otherwise. Come walk a mile in my shoes before you pass judgement.
No, I shall pass judgement just fine based on my own extensive and directly relevant experience, thanks all the same.
And when the zombies rise up, and come breaking down your door to feast on your brains, you may regret your choices. I did try to warn you. I have guns and a security ninja cat to protect me, so I'll be ok.

Speaking of security, we had engaged the services of a crack security ninja cat to guard our home about 16 months ago. But as soon as the long-term employment contract was signed and the cat established in our home, said security ninja turned into a slacker who spends his days guarding his bed on the couch, or my lap. Such is life:

View attachment 36653View attachment 36654

No matter how cute your cat is, it remains true that a gun isn't a defensive device.

I suspect that most Americans have little grasp of the meaning of the word 'defence'.
I can understand why your thinking is so muddled, being that you live on the bottom half of the planet where you are always upside down and the blood is constantly pooling in your brain. Low oxygen supply to the brain - that's the problem. You can fix that temporarily by doing headstands every 10 minutes or so, especially when you need to think.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

#### Toni

##### Contributor
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??
My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

#### skepticalbip

##### Contributor
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??
My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.
Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??
My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.
Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.
I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.
People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.
People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.
I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide.

You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.
People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.
I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide.

You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police.
Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a $400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors. #### skepticalbip ##### Contributor And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife? It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because?? Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl. I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists. What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds. Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee?? My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them. Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock. My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away. My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's. Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired. My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood). None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers. A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie. I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous. I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves. Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker. I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings. I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind. I don’t disagree, honestly. BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food. Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon. I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots. Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently. But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night. That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed. According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed. #### Jimmy Higgins ##### Contributor And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off. #### skepticalbip ##### Contributor And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off. You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home. #### Toni ##### Contributor But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night. People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US. If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family. I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide. You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police. Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a$400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors.
It depends, I suppose, on your tolerance for risk. I live in a neighborhood that is low risk for break ins. It's a small enough place that police would be able to respond quickly. I don't keep much in the way of valuables in the house and would not trade anything I own for my life --or for someone else's. I feel...perhaps overconfident....that I could manage a break in. I also feel pretty confident that I would not handle it very well if I were to shoot someone. And much worse if my weapon were taken from me by an attacker or if I accidentally hurt someone I did not intend to hurt. Or kill, really. I was taught that you only shoot to kill. I quit hunting with my dad because I didn't want to kill squirrels, although I helped him dress squirrels he shot as well as rabbits and other game and ate them all, with relish. I've been with people I loved when they died. I've been with animals I loved when they died. I've made decisions that helped to shorten the life of someone--more than one someone-- I loved because I loved them. If I need to, I will do that again. I hope I don't have to do that but I would. Hell, if it were necessary, I'd take up hunting if I needed to to keep me and mine alive. I've sacrificed research animals in the name of science. Some, by cervical dislocation.

I've seen enough death.

I am actively, knowingly choosing not to have a firearm in my home or on my person. I know from very close experience that a weapon can be taken away from you and used against you or someone you love. A weapon can be stolen and used to kill someone. A weapon can be used to kill a child.

On average, one child in the US is shot--not every day but every hour of every day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/interactive/2022/kids-shot-killed-2021-gun-violence-record/

I would rather take my chances than contribute to that horrible, unforgiveable statistic.

Other countries seem to manage to keep their citizens safe without arming everybody to the teeth. There is not the epidemic of school shootings in other countries as there is here in the US. There are no shootings at malls or movie theaters or concerts. There is no little girl or boy shot dead in their bed at night or while they're doing their homework at the kitchen table.

Only here.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.
You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.
My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.

#### skepticalbip

##### Contributor
And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.
You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.
My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.
You skipped the opening, "You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one." He was not prepared to use the weapon to protect his family. Your uncle and his family was lucky that his invader didn't have more malicious intent. I prefer to not depend on luck.

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#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
I am actively, knowingly choosing not to have a firearm in my home or on my person.
I understand and respect that. I am not advocating for every person to go out and buy firearms. And I am against people owning firearms if they are not willing to take on the responsibility that accompanies this right.

#### Tharmas

##### Veteran Member
Some interesting statistics about gun ownership in the USA, from this source (Pubmed):

For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??
My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.
Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.
I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.
That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed.

According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed.
So far, I've done pretty well fending off would be rapists. None were in my actual home, but definitely in places where I felt I was perfectly safe-the homes of close friends and relatives. Which is extremely common. Almost all rapes victims know their attacker. I knew mine.

In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents.

In 2020, there were a total of
Some interesting statistics about gun ownership in the USA, from this source (Pubmed):

For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
Excellent point.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.
You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.
My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.
You skipped the opening, "You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one." He was not prepared to use the weapon to protect his family. Your uncle was lucky that his invader didn't have more malicious intent. I prefer to not depend on luck.
He absolutely was prepared to use his weapon to defend himself and his family. He reached for a gun and was shot at by one of the invaders. If my uncle had reached his gun first, I doubt he would have missed.

He was a farmer and did not go about his work with a gun strapped to him as though he was in a Louis L'Amour novel or a cowboy movie.

#### skepticalbip

##### Contributor
And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??
My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.
Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.
I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.
That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed.

According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed.
So far, I've done pretty well fending off would be rapists. None were in my actual home, but definitely in places where I felt I was perfectly safe-the homes of close friends and relatives. Which is extremely common. Almost all rapes victims know their attacker. I knew mine.
I don't know how that applies to the topic. True sociopaths that break into your home are not likely to be anything like your friends and/or acquaintances that you would go to parties with.
In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents
That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents
That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.
Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.

#### skepticalbip

##### Contributor
In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents
That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.
Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.
That is true. But like having taken the Coved vaccine does not prevent me being infected, repelling home invaders prevents a more serious outcome.

#### Angry Floof

##### Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.
This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?
Not only that, but in the US, access to firearms is the main point of conflict, so it's also, "If only it were easier for any moron or disgruntled employee or whatever to get automatic weapons with zero tracking or oversight so as to kill whoever they imagine have wronged them, the situation would be so much better."

#### Toni

##### Contributor
In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents
That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.
Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.
That is true. But like having taken the Coved vaccine does not prevent me being infected, repelling home invaders prevents a more serious outcome.
Having a personal firearm *may* detour home invaders/burglars, but it can also result in your firearm being stolen or used against you or you accidentally shooting someone you did not intend to shoot. Are you prepared to take gun safety classes! Commit to safely storing any firearms in your home? Keep in mind, that means unloaded.

It’s simpler and probably more effective and possibly cheaper to have a good security system. Or dog.

#### steve_bank

##### Contributor
This has become routine in Seattle. Decriminalizing drugs and a lenient justice system has eliminated fear in crinals.

My apartment biding is a routine target. A few months ago our maintenance guy was assaulted in the building. I interupted somebody trying to steal a computer from out community room. Som,ebody broke a door lock with tools and locked himself in a riomm that had a computer. When the door was opened he said he belonged in the building.

In Seattle people arrested for stealing from a store was released with no bail and went back to tye same store. Repeat felons have been released withour bail and end up killing.

A local treported looked at homeless camps u and down the coast. As a generalization he siad 30% ofitis crime related, pele use camps as a shield. 30% are really homeless. 30% have drug and mental issues.

Your guy may have mental or drug issues, or just sees your place as an easy target. It seems that people in the area know the layout of pur buildings and how to get in. They wait until the garage doors are almost closed when somebody drives out and duck in. Thy use the intercom at the door and say they forget their key or they know somebody and ask to be let in. Sometimes people do. They will run up when somebody opes the door and will go in if nobody says anything.

Somebody repeatedly targeting one business is common around here. It is bad enough that an area in downtown Seattle has lost businesses. A section on 3rd ave looks like a ghost town, excpet for the street people. Boarded up store fronts.

We also have problems with flash mob robberies. Organized online a group appears at a mall or store and run through grabbing as they go.

We stopped calling the police. There is no point. If my eyesight was better I'd get a gun. I carry pepper spray both insie and outside the buildings.

For home invasion the best defense is a simple shotgun. We have home invasions and occasional they are faced with an armed homeowner.

#### Loren Pechtel

Staff member
Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a $400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors. This. Unless you have a good hiding area 911 isn't going to get there in time. If someone breaks in chances are either an immediate encounter or that you're in the master bedroom which is certainly going to be on their list of places to go. Now, for most people the risk is very low--but most people are not all people. Note that in the situation that spawned this sub-thread the peaceful defense options had already been exhausted and the guy has demonstrated a willingness to use deadly force. It's not about wanting to kill a bad guy--anyone who wants to should automatically be disqualified from owning firearms. It's just if something bad happens much better that it happen to a bad guy than to an innocent. #### bilby ##### Fair dinkum thinkum And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife? It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because?? Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl. I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists. What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds. Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee?? My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them. Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock. My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away. My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's. Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired. My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood). None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers. A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie. I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous. I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves. Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker. I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings. I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind. I don’t disagree, honestly. BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food. Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon. I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots. Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently. But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night. That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed. I don't think that's true outside the US. Certainly it's not compatible with my experiences and observations in the UK and Australia. Housebreakers and burglars usually respond to detection by fleeing. They aren't there to get in a fight. They are certainly not there to commit rape (that's a pure Hollywood fantasy - opportunist rape by strangers is almost unheard of, with almost all rape being either by someone known to the victim, or as a premeditated act). And outside the US, they are almost certainly not armed. According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. That may be true, but you didn't complete the thought. Is this the case outside the US? Is this the result of the cultural expectation that firearms might be present in any situation, and the (foolish and nonsensical) belief that having your own gun can somehow protect you from someone else's? Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed. In my experience, you can persuade a housebreaker to flee just by looking at him. #### skepticalbip ##### Contributor And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife? It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because?? Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl. I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists. What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds. Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee?? My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them. Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock. My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away. My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's. Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired. My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood). None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers. A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie. I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous. I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves. Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker. I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings. I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind. I don’t disagree, honestly. BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food. Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon. I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots. Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently. But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night. That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed. I don't think that's true outside the US. Certainly it's not compatible with my experiences and observations in the UK and Australia. Housebreakers and burglars usually respond to detection by fleeing. They aren't there to get in a fight. They are certainly not there to commit rape (that's a pure Hollywood fantasy - opportunist rape by strangers is almost unheard of, with almost all rape being either by someone known to the victim, or as a premeditated act). And outside the US, they are almost certainly not armed. According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. That may be true, but you didn't complete the thought. Is this the case outside the US? Is this the result of the cultural expectation that firearms might be present in any situation, and the (foolish and nonsensical) belief that having your own gun can somehow protect you from someone else's? Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed. In my experience, you can persuade a housebreaker to flee just by looking at him. As I said, the percentage of the population that are seriously injured victims of home invasions is only a small percentage of the total population, as are the percentage of the population that are killed in an auto accident. I don't doubt that you have no first hand knowledge of a serious home invasion. But the fact that you don't know of any doesn't mean that they do not happen even in Australia ... as this news report from Sydney indicates: #### Attachments • 1642032982779.png 114.6 KB · Views: 1 #### Toni ##### Contributor And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife? It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because?? Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl. I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists. What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds. Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee?? My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them. Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock. My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away. My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's. Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired. My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood). None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers. A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie. I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous. I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves. Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker. I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings. I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind. I don’t disagree, honestly. BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food. Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon. I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots. Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently. But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night. That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed. I don't think that's true outside the US. Certainly it's not compatible with my experiences and observations in the UK and Australia. Housebreakers and burglars usually respond to detection by fleeing. They aren't there to get in a fight. They are certainly not there to commit rape (that's a pure Hollywood fantasy - opportunist rape by strangers is almost unheard of, with almost all rape being either by someone known to the victim, or as a premeditated act). And outside the US, they are almost certainly not armed. According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. That may be true, but you didn't complete the thought. Is this the case outside the US? Is this the result of the cultural expectation that firearms might be present in any situation, and the (foolish and nonsensical) belief that having your own gun can somehow protect you from someone else's? Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed. In my experience, you can persuade a housebreaker to flee just by looking at him. As I said, the percentage of the population that are seriously injured victims of home invasions is only a small percentage of the total population, as are the percentage of the population that are killed in an auto accident. I don't doubt that you have no first hand knowledge of a serious home invasion. But the fact that you don't know of any doesn't mean that they do not happen even in Australia ... as this news report from Sydney indicates: Actually I’ve described two very serious home invasions that I know a great deal about because they happened to very close family members, in homes where I spent a great deal of time. Both crimes involved weapons and very credible threats of violence. In one case, my uncle was shot at in his own home. My other family member was rescued by multiple SWAT teams. They had been held hostage with a knife at their throat. Their spouse had been held at gunpoint. The only person who was shot at was the only person actually proficient in the use of firearms. Many more people are killed in motor vehicle accidents than are killed in home invasions. I went to the funeral of a16 year old killed in an auto accident. #### Jimmy Higgins ##### Contributor Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a$400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors.
This. Unless you have a good hiding area 911 isn't going to get there in time. If someone breaks in chances are either an immediate encounter or that you're in the master bedroom which is certainly going to be on their list of places to go.

Now, for most people the risk is very low--but most people are not all people. Note that in the situation that spawned this sub-thread the peaceful defense options had already been exhausted and the guy has demonstrated a willingness to use deadly force.

It's not about wanting to kill a bad guy--anyone who wants to should automatically be disqualified from owning firearms. It's just if something bad happens much better that it happen to a bad guy than to an innocent.
Can we get to the part where all employees at my place would need to be armed for this plan to work?

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents
That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.
Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.
That is true. But like having taken the Coved vaccine does not prevent me being infected, repelling home invaders prevents a more serious outcome.
I was more or less being a wiseass.

And I'm all for repelling. The trouble is when the repellent isn't effective or helps to incite panic or further aggression.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.
You only draw your gun when you are fully committed to using it.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
Other countries seem to manage to keep their citizens safe without arming everybody to the teeth. There is not the epidemic of school shootings in other countries as there is here in the US. There are no shootings at malls or movie theaters or concerts. There is no little girl or boy shot dead in their bed at night or while they're doing their homework at the kitchen table.

Only here.
The genie is out of the bottle, and there is no way to put it back in.