Followup on Gaza fatalities

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/e...errorist-organizations-half-affiliated-hamas/

So far, of the 187 dead 150 have been identified as members of terrorist organizations. Amazing how selective the IDF can be at targeting those who have no identifying features.

 

[laughing dog]

I seriously doubt you even bothered to read the report you cite. The report has two categories - membership and affiliation. Of the 150, 91 are "affiliated" with alleged terrorist organizations (I say alleged, because Fatah is included). I could find no operational definition of "affiliation". Since Hamas employs teachers, social workers, etc.... along with terrorists, the notion of undefined "affiliation" means that these numbers are, at best, upper estimates, that cannot be taken as accurate.

And, of course, killing people who are not posing an immediate threat is wrong, regardless of what one believes they may do in the future.

 

[Derec]

I seriously doubt you even bothered to read the report you cite. The report has two categories - membership and affiliation. Of the 150, 91 are "affiliated" with alleged terrorist organizations (I say alleged, because Fatah is included). I could find no operational definition of "affiliation". Since Hamas employs teachers, social workers, etc.... along with terrorists, the notion of undefined "affiliation" means that these numbers are, at best, upper estimates, that cannot be taken as accurate.

Even looking at confirmed fighters belonging to various terror groups, their share, about a third, is quite high. And I see no indication that public sector employees like teachers are counted as "affiliated". Do you have any evidence that it is so?

And, of course, killing people who are not posing an immediate threat is wrong, regardless of what one believes they may do in the future.

I would say people who throw explosives over the border fence, try to infiltrate a sovereign country, use burning tires to cover up the aforementioned activities and send incendiary and explosive balloons across the border are more than enough of a threat to use lethal force. IDF is using extraordinary restraint. Why don't Gazans ever try to pull that shit on the border with Egypt? Because they know very well al-Sisi doesn't play and the fatalities would be at least 10 times as high!

 

[untermensche]

Opposing Israel and Israeli oppression does not make you a terrorist.

Violently opposing violent oppression is not terrorism.

It may not be justified but it is resistance not terrorism.

 

[laughing dog]

I seriously doubt you even bothered to read the report you cite. The report has two categories - membership and affiliation. Of the 150, 91 are "affiliated" with alleged terrorist organizations (I say alleged, because Fatah is included). I could find no operational definition of "affiliation". Since Hamas employs teachers, social workers, etc.... along with terrorists, the notion of undefined "affiliation" means that these numbers are, at best, upper estimates, that cannot be taken as accurate.

Even looking at confirmed fighters belonging to various terror groups, their share, about a third, is quite high. And I see no indication that public sector employees like teachers are counted as "affiliated". Do you have any evidence that it is so?

There is no definition, so it is entirely possible. Do you have any indication what "affiliated" means? Given that Fatah - which is also a political organization - is counted as a terrorist organization, there is certainly reason to believe that "affiliate" may include people who are not terrorists.

I would say people who throw explosives over the border fence, try to infiltrate a sovereign country, use burning tires to cover up the aforementioned activities and send incendiary and explosive balloons across the border are more than enough of a threat to use lethal force.

That is non-responsive to what I wrote which specifically identified people who are not an immediate threat.

IDF is using extraordinary restraint.

You know that every single one of those people posed a threat?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I seriously doubt you even bothered to read the report you cite. The report has two categories - membership and affiliation. Of the 150, 91 are "affiliated" with alleged terrorist organizations (I say alleged, because Fatah is included). I could find no operational definition of "affiliation". Since Hamas employs teachers, social workers, etc.... along with terrorists, the notion of undefined "affiliation" means that these numbers are, at best, upper estimates, that cannot be taken as accurate.

And, of course, killing people who are not posing an immediate threat is wrong, regardless of what one believes they may do in the future.

Grasping at straws again.

1) Even if you were right the highly selective targeting says a lot. It's very much not random based on a characteristic they can't see. Thus there must be some characteristic they can see that's related to it--their actions.

2) "Affiliated" doesn't have a formal definition AFIAK. The terrorist organizations are trying to keep the information under wraps but they're not that good at it. (Note that over time this number creeps up as often the terrorist organizations only post the martyrdom pages after the reporters have lost interest in the situation. Only those following it in detail and for the long term find them.)

3) If Israel doesn't defend the border fence they would be mobbed, large numbers of terrorists coming in behind a mass of civilians. And a member of an enemy army crossing your border certainly is a valid target.

 

[untermensche]

If you are oppressing people they are morally justified to try to stop you.

 

[Derec]

If you are oppressing people they are morally justified to try to stop you.

Israel is not oppressing Gaza. It is the other way around. The rulers of Gaza (Islamofascist Hamas terrorists) want to erase the border and tear Israelis' hearts out.
Remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Pretty much as soon as they did it, Gaza responded with aggression by launching 100s of rockets and mortars at Israel. That is an act of war that is still ongoing. ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF!

 

[untermensche]

If you are oppressing people they are morally justified to try to stop you.

Israel is not oppressing Gaza. It is the other way around. The rulers of Gaza (Islamofascist Hamas terrorists) want to erase the border and tear Israelis' hearts out.
Remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Pretty much as soon as they did it, Gaza responded with aggression by launching 100s of rockets and mortars at Israel. That is an act of war that is still ongoing. ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF!

Gaza is a huge prison.

Because this is what Israel allows.

No ports. No air travel. No free trade with the world. No travel across borders without permission.

And Hamas is the strongest gang in the prison.

So the Palestinians are doubly oppressed.

By Israel and by the gang Israeli oppression has created.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you are oppressing people they are morally justified to try to stop you.

Israel is not oppressing Gaza. It is the other way around. The rulers of Gaza (Islamofascist Hamas terrorists) want to erase the border and tear Israelis' hearts out.
Remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Pretty much as soon as they did it, Gaza responded with aggression by launching 100s of rockets and mortars at Israel. That is an act of war that is still ongoing. ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF!

Gaza is a huge prison.

Because this is what Israel allows.

No ports. No air travel. No free trade with the world. No travel across borders without permission.

And Hamas is the strongest gang in the prison.

So the Palestinians are doubly oppressed.

By Israel and by the gang Israeli oppression has created.

Gaza does not contain anyplace that would make a reasonable port in the first place.

They have free trade of all non-military items. It has to go through Israel to be inspected for smuggling (Israel finds plenty of weapons hidden in civilian items) but that's all.

Nobody has the ability to travel across borders without permission. There is a border with Egypt--but Egypt has no more interest in terrorists than Israel.

Hamas isn't the strongest gang in the prison, Hamas is the prison guards and they keep making themselves enough of a problem that the walls remain.

Note that there didn't used to be that pressure on Gaza. They (West Bank/Gaza) had the highest standard of living of any non-oil Arab nation. Letting the people get comfortable was unacceptable to the Islamists, they started a wave of violence that resulted in the wall and trashing their economy. They did it to themselves.

 

[untermensche]

Gaza is a huge prison.

Because this is what Israel allows.

No ports. No air travel. No free trade with the world. No travel across borders without permission.

And Hamas is the strongest gang in the prison.

So the Palestinians are doubly oppressed.

By Israel and by the gang Israeli oppression has created.

Gaza does not contain anyplace that would make a reasonable port in the first place.

Total lie!

They have free trade of all non-military items. It has to go through Israel to be inspected for smuggling (Israel finds plenty of weapons hidden in civilian items) but that's all.

That's not free trade. That is whatever trade an oppressing power allows.

Nobody has the ability to travel across borders without permission.

People are allowed to get into a boat and travel out into the waters that surround their nation.

And come and go.

Except people under the boot of oppression.

There is a border with Egypt--but Egypt has no more interest in terrorists than Israel.

Nobody is interested in terrorists.

That is why the people want the brutal oppression to end.

It creates terrorists.

Hamas isn't the strongest gang in the prison, Hamas is the prison guards and they keep making themselves enough of a problem that the walls remain.

Israel is the guards and the force keeping people in prison.

And Hamas is merely what not being allowed to have a modern nation with a modern military and police force allows.

Note that there didn't used to be that pressure on Gaza. They (West Bank/Gaza) had the highest standard of living of any non-oil Arab nation. Letting the people get comfortable was unacceptable to the Islamists, they started a wave of violence that resulted in the wall and trashing their economy. They did it to themselves.

They have been oppressed by Israel.

Doubly oppressed.

It is sickening and sickening to have to read people who defend oppression.

Hint: Oppression creates bad people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Total lie!

Look at the world--port locations aren't that common.

They have free trade of all non-military items. It has to go through Israel to be inspected for smuggling (Israel finds plenty of weapons hidden in civilian items) but that's all.

That's not free trade. That is whatever trade an oppressing power allows.

Which is everything but weapons.

Nobody has the ability to travel across borders without permission.

People are allowed to get into a boat and travel out into the waters that surround their nation.

And come and go.

Except people under the boot of oppression.

You're forgetting the only reason they want to do it is to bring in weapons. Fishing is an inshore thing.

There is a border with Egypt--but Egypt has no more interest in terrorists than Israel.

Nobody is interested in terrorists.

That is why the people want the brutal oppression to end.

It creates terrorists.

Then get rid of the real oppressor, Hamas.

Hamas isn't the strongest gang in the prison, Hamas is the prison guards and they keep making themselves enough of a problem that the walls remain.

Israel is the guards and the force keeping people in prison.

And Hamas is merely what not being allowed to have a modern nation with a modern military and police force allows.

They are at war. Any military they have would be destroyed.

Note that there didn't used to be that pressure on Gaza. They (West Bank/Gaza) had the highest standard of living of any non-oil Arab nation. Letting the people get comfortable was unacceptable to the Islamists, they started a wave of violence that resulted in the wall and trashing their economy. They did it to themselves.

They have been oppressed by Israel.

Doubly oppressed.

It is sickening and sickening to have to read people who defend oppression.

Hint: Oppression creates bad people.

What you don't see is who the real oppressor is.

 

[untermensche]

What you don't see is who the real oppressor is.

The real oppressor is the side that tells the other side what it can and cannot do.

 

[Arctish]

Gaza does not contain anyplace that would make a reasonable port in the first place.

Total lie!

Look at the world--port locations aren't that common.

Wow, it's almost as though you never heard of the Port of Gaza, or knew that freighters can dock and unload there, or knew about the dredging to deepen the harbor or the installation of the breakwater or heard about the international funding for further port improvements.

In fact, it's almost as though you're bullshitting.

Remember that flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid and volunteers that was headed for Gaza when the IDF raided it in international waters? Where do you think they were going to tie up and offload their cargo?

 

[Ford]

In fact, it's almost as though you're bullshitting.

Or faithfully repeating Bibi's propaganda.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What you don't see is who the real oppressor is.

The real oppressor is the side that tells the other side what it can and cannot do.

You mean like shooting those who try to escape from a house that the IDF is about to bomb? Sacrificing people in order to have civilian casualties to parade before the media.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at the world--port locations aren't that common.

Wow, it's almost as though you never heard of the Port of Gaza, or knew that freighters can dock and unload there, or knew about the dredging to deepen the harbor or the installation of the breakwater or heard about the international funding for further port improvements.

In fact, it's almost as though you're bullshitting.

Remember that flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid and volunteers that was headed for Gaza when the IDF raided it in international waters? Where do you think they were going to tie up and offload their cargo?

1) They have a location suitable for small ships. Not for normal oceangoing freighters.

2) That "freedom flotilla" wasn't carrying any meaningful aid. They either had nothing at all or a bunch of junk simply tossed in the hold. The purpose wasn't to go to Gaza, the purpose was to cause a conflict at sea where some martyrs would die. (Hint: The "civilians" that died left martyrdom videos.)

 

[Derec]

Wow, it's almost as though you never heard of the Port of Gaza,

It's basically a glorified marina.

or knew that freighters can dock and unload there,

There are freighters and there are freighters.

or knew about the dredging to deepen the harbor or the installation of the breakwater or heard about the international funding for further port improvements.

Things planned for possible future development are just that - plans. Unlikely to be realized anytime soon, given how Gaza is being governed by a terrorist organization.

Remember that flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid and volunteers that was headed for Gaza when the IDF raided it in international waters? Where do you think they were going to tie up and offload their cargo?

First of all, plenty of humanitarian aid and other goods enters Gaza through Kerem Shalom crossing every day.

Volunteers can enter through Rafah and Erez crossings. The flotilla had one real purpose - set a precedent breaking the blockade so Hamas could be supplied with weapons easier.
Second, those were pretty small ships, carrying only symbolic amounts of cargo, hardly real freighters.

 

[untermensche]

The reason people in Gaza want weapons is because they are under a brutal oppression and have been for decades.

End the oppression Israel.

End the oppression.

It is dangerous but that is no excuse. You don't get to carry out decades of oppression and pay no price.

 

[Derec]

The reason people in Gaza want weapons is because they are under a brutal oppression and have been for decades.

Wrong. They want the weapons because they want to invade and conquer Israel.

This is the head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar.