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For the Wealthiest, a Private Tax System That Saves Them Billions

It's somewhat embarrassing to argue that the government's primary job is to protect people and property rights when said government's primary spending is on taking money from Person A and giving money (and things) to Person B.

Indeed. The government's primary job is to counterbalance the economic forces that tend to concentrate wealth in fewer and fewer hands over time. Absent this vital service, society would rapidly dissolve into feudalism, to the detriment of all but a tiny number of nobles.

This is the reason why democracy is a better system than any other yet tried - when power is concentrated in few hands, it is difficult to prevent the same from becoming true of wealth, to the detriment of all but the powerful.

You see the forcible redistribution of wealth by government as a problem; but it is not a bug - it's a feature.


What was the mechanism for that by the government considering we didn't even have an income tax for the first 130 or so years the government ran?


I think it's already past the degree of acceptability. In recent times, wealth has become far too concentrated in the hands of the few.

Maybe paper wealth, but we live in a time with the least amount of power from the wealthy and actually some of the most power by the people.
 
Maybe paper wealth, but we live in a time with the least amount of power from the wealthy and actually some of the most power by the people.

Yeah, no.


That just talked about a small sliver now. So you would make the argument that in 1800 the average person had more say in government than they do today? It would be very hard to go back and do the same paper.
 
That just talked about a small sliver now.

At least I had a citation for my claim.

So you would make the argument that in 1800 the average person had more say in government than they do today?

Yes.

It would be very hard to go back and do the same paper.

So?

Are you really claiming that financial power doesn't translate into political power?

Funny coming from a time that women and blacks couldn't even vote.
 
you said "person". Obviously those two don't count.
 
So you would make the argument that in 1800 the average person had more say in government than they do today?
yes

I take this part back.

As you reminded me blacks and women didn't have the vote in the 1800s and neither were they really able to accumulate wealth or earn much for their labor.

Also inequality during the 1800s was nearly what it is today (see page 117 at link).

So, I'd say the average person had about as much political power as the average person does today.

Also see: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9354310
 
Because your position of power to change the rules so you don't "Have to" pay taxes anymore is unethical. Using that same position to avoid being punished for your unethical behavior is corruption.

And using sheer force of numbers, public discord, and an armed cadre of police and/or military officers who feel the same way to forcibly drag said unethical corrupt individuals out of their homes and beat them to death with bars of soap is potentially a thing of beauty.


That's kinda what I mean: if there's nothing wrong with the rich acting unethically in their own interests, then there's nothing wrong with the poor doing the same. When a person or persons have the power to unilaterally reshape the laws in their own favor, the citizens have no further moral obligation to obey it.

What is ethical or moral is not the same as what is legal.
That's irrelevant. If the LAW is unethical, then violating it is not. "Legal" is only relevant to the extent that it can be enforced, and those laws may become unenforceable if enough of the enforcers decide the law ought not be implemented.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
The top 0.1% controls what, 50% of the wealth?
What's your point?
Fundamentally government is about protecting people and property rights. If someone owns 50% of the wealth they need to pay for the government that makes that kind of wealth accumulation possible. Bill Gates wouldn't have 80 billion dollars if he had to pay for his own airforce, navy, CIA, FBI and mercenaries etc to enforce Microsoft copyrights and protect his physical properties.
But Bill Gates has already been taxed on the income that his $80 billion is left over from. He, along with the others above the percentile who collectively own 50% of the wealth (actually about 2%, not 0.1%), already paid for the government that makes that kind of wealth accumulation possible. They paid at rates that already discriminate against them, because they're a minority and the majority collectively have the political power to vote themselves services and vote others the bill. So what more is left to pay for, to be laid at the door of the wealth difference? You and JH appear to be arguing that the circumstance that Bill Gates et al. didn't consume enough to use up all their after-tax income is grounds for the government to discriminate against them. I don't see why. Consuming less doesn't harm the community; quite the reverse. Are you suggesting that, unlike protecting accumulations of property, protecting the property rights of people who consume their income isn't a burden on the government, because they don't have much stuff to be protected? That's not how it works. Without government protection of their property, people who don't save wouldn't be consuming their income. Their income would be consumed by robbers, the same as Bill Gates' billions would be.
 
Consuming less doesn't harm the community; quite the reverse.

Actually, given our current economy, consuming less does harm the community. If you don't think so then just imagine if everyone decided to consume less.
 
Because your position of power to change the rules so you don't "Have to" pay taxes anymore is unethical. Using that same position to avoid being punished for your unethical behavior is corruption.

And using sheer force of numbers, public discord, and an armed cadre of police and/or military officers who feel the same way to forcibly drag said unethical corrupt individuals out of their homes and beat them to death with bars of soap is potentially a thing of beauty.

Hopefully, anyone critical of the rich for acting in their own interest is not so hypocritical as to take deductions or fail to give gifts to the treasury in excess of actual tax liability.
That's kinda what I mean: if there's nothing wrong with the rich acting unethically in their own interests, then there's nothing wrong with the poor doing the same. When a person or persons have the power to unilaterally reshape the laws in their own favor, the citizens have no further moral obligation to obey it.
What is ethical or moral is not the same as what is legal.
That's irrelevant. If the LAW is unethical, then violating it is not. "Legal" is only relevant to the extent that it can be enforced, and those laws may become unenforceable if enough of the enforcers decide the law ought not be implemented.
Does that cut both ways? Would you also say that if there's nothing wrong with the poor acting unethically in their own interests, then there's nothing wrong with the rich doing the same?

Apparently we're calling lower taxes "don't have to pay taxes anymore". The poor, due to their numbers, have a position of power, which they used to change the rules so they "don't have to pay taxes anymore", to a far greater degree than the rich can be described as having done -- the rich are after all still paying higher tax rates than the poor. So was it unethical for the poor to support politicians who promised to enact a progressive income tax? The poor have not been punished for voting services for themselves and voting the bill to somebody else -- in a democracy any bill to punish them for that sort of behavior would make no headway against the power of their superior numbers. Do you therefore call that corruption? The poor have the power to unilaterally reshape the laws in their own favor. Does that mean the rich have no further moral obligation to obey them?
 
Consuming less doesn't harm the community; quite the reverse.

Actually, given our current economy, consuming less does harm the community. If you don't think so then just imagine if everyone decided to consume less.
Each person's act of consuming less might potentially harm himself, but that doesn't mean anyone's act of consuming less harmed other people in general. And the community would probably actually be better off if everyone decided to consume less, since people would simply be deferring consumption to a time in the future when they'd find consumption more useful.

The widespread notion that consuming your property is good for the community makes no mathematical sense. When Bill earns a billion dollars and doesn't spend it, one of three things happens. Either (a) Bill gives it away, which means somebody else gets to spend it; or (b) Bill invests it, which means he makes it available to somebody else in return for interest or equity -- interest or equity the receiver of Bill's money is only willing to give up because he intends to spend Bill's money; or (c) Bill stuffs it under his mattress, which reduces the number of dollars chasing goods and services, which reduces the risk of inflation -- and fear of inflation is the only thing stopping the government from paying for its own expenses by printing money. Stuffing your money under your mattress is economically identical to lending it to the government, and the government borrows money so it can spend it.

So Bill Gates' billions are getting spent and inducing economic activity whether Bill consumes billions of dollars worth of resources or not. The difference is that if he doesn't consume the resources, then we get the economic activity plus we still have those resources.
 
You're assuming the investment is in productive assets and not just paper financial instruments that don't produce anything other than interest or dividends.

The problem becomes more and more cash being in the hands of people with less propensity to consume.

The economy is a body and money is the blood. Let a couple parts of the body keep most of the blood from circulating and the body dies.
 
You're assuming the investment is in productive assets and not just paper financial instruments that don't produce anything other than interest or dividends.
You're assuming that paper financial instruments that don't produce anything you can see other than interest or dividends aren't producing anything you can't see. But never mind that -- it's inessential to the issue at hand.

The problem becomes more and more cash being in the hands of people with less propensity to consume.

The economy is a body and money is the blood. Let a couple parts of the body keep most of the blood from circulating and the body dies.
Failing to drink your own blood has no power to stop blood from circulating through other people's bodies. The total blood supply is not a fixed quantity. Money is a debt instrument -- money is the memory of favors done and not yet returned. If too many people owe too many favors to a few people who are not calling in their favors, and the resulting shortage of IOUs is causing economic activity in general to decline, it's not the nonconsumption that's the problem. Nonconsumption has no magical power to stop people from scrawling up new IOUs and continuing to do favors for one another. The problem is not enough IOUs. You don't need rich people to call in their favors to fix that; you need a printing press. The cure for a recession caused by low demand isn't Bill Gates buying stuff he doesn't need; it's government buying stuff people do need. Isn't that what Keynes said?
 
Indeed. The government's primary job is to counterbalance the economic forces that tend to concentrate wealth in fewer and fewer hands over time. Absent this vital service, society would rapidly dissolve into feudalism, to the detriment of all but a tiny number of nobles.

This is the reason why democracy is a better system than any other yet tried - when power is concentrated in few hands, it is difficult to prevent the same from becoming true of wealth, to the detriment of all but the powerful.

You see the forcible redistribution of wealth by government as a problem; but it is not a bug - it's a feature.


What was the mechanism for that by the government considering we didn't even have an income tax for the first 130 or so years the government ran?
Are you of the impression that income tax is the only form of taxation?

Taxation is as old as government.

I think it's already past the degree of acceptability. In recent times, wealth has become far too concentrated in the hands of the few.

Maybe paper wealth, but we live in a time with the least amount of power from the wealthy and actually some of the most power by the people.

And as a result, the most prosperous society in history - by far.


(btw, I didn't say that second bit)
 
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You're assuming that paper financial instruments that don't produce anything you can see other than interest or dividends aren't producing anything you can't see. But never mind that -- it's inessential to the issue at hand.

The problem becomes more and more cash being in the hands of people with less propensity to consume.

The economy is a body and money is the blood. Let a couple parts of the body keep most of the blood from circulating and the body dies.
Failing to drink your own blood has no power to stop blood from circulating through other people's bodies. The total blood supply is not a fixed quantity. Money is a debt instrument -- money is the memory of favors done and not yet returned. If too many people owe too many favors to a few people who are not calling in their favors, and the resulting shortage of IOUs is causing economic activity in general to decline, it's not the nonconsumption that's the problem. Nonconsumption has no magical power to stop people from scrawling up new IOUs and continuing to do favors for one another. The problem is not enough IOUs. You don't need rich people to call in their favors to fix that; you need a printing press. The cure for a recession caused by low demand isn't Bill Gates buying stuff he doesn't need; it's government buying stuff people do need. Isn't that what Keynes said?

Actually, the solution is Bill Gates buying people stuff they do need. The government just acts to compel him to do so - because it is in the interests of the nation and the people to do that, but it isn't in the interest of Bill Gates. Whether the money is taken from Bill as taxes, or whether his money is simply devalued by the government printing more of it, is not all that important - but psychologically, taxation generally produces better results than inflation, even though they are economically similar.

The aim of the game is to minimise poverty and suffering, and maximise happiness, for the entire population. Fairness and property rights can, at times, help with this goal, and can at other times hinder it; but they are not goals in their own right. Free market capitalism provides the helping part of that process, and government provides a mechanism to be deliberately unfair, and to confiscate property, in a controlled way that keeps that free market capitalism in check, without destroying it. Too much of either freedom or oppression leads to a sub-optimal result.

Many people are so enamoured with freedom (Americans are culturally inclined to be even more so that other OECD citizens) that they often think there's no such thing as 'too much freedom'. But that's a consequence of not thinking it through, and/or not looking at the actual real-world results.

Freedom is not the aim of the game; Nor is fairness. The aim of the game is wealth - universal wealth. It lies somewhere between feudalism and soviet-style central planning; and it is a bad idea to accidentally run into one of these extremes, while running away from the other.
 
You're assuming that paper financial instruments that don't produce anything you can see other than interest or dividends aren't producing anything you can't see.

I just logged onto my robin hood account and bought some apple stock.

So, what is that stock going to produce other than interest (in the form of capital gains) or dividends?

But never mind that -- it's inessential to the issue at hand.

No, it's kind of essential since not all spending and investment is equal.

The problem becomes more and more cash being in the hands of people with less propensity to consume.

The economy is a body and money is the blood. Let a couple parts of the body keep most of the blood from circulating and the body dies.
Failing to drink your own blood has no power to stop blood from circulating through other people's bodies. The total blood supply is not a fixed quantity. Money is a debt instrument -- money is the memory of favors done and not yet returned. If too many people owe too many favors to a few people who are not calling in their favors, and the resulting shortage of IOUs is causing economic activity in general to decline, it's not the nonconsumption that's the problem. Nonconsumption has no magical power to stop people from scrawling up new IOUs and continuing to do favors for one another. The problem is not enough IOUs. You don't need rich people to call in their favors to fix that; you need a printing press. The cure for a recession caused by low demand isn't Bill Gates buying stuff he doesn't need; it's government buying stuff people do need. Isn't that what Keynes said?

What are you blabbering about?
 
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