• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-freddie-gray-20150419-story.html#page=1

Freddie Gray, a Baltimore man injured during an arrest by Baltimore police last week, died Sunday at Shock Trauma, prompting protests by city residents and out-of-town activists and promises from city officials for a thorough investigation..

Gray, 25, died a week after he suffered a broken vertabra after being arrested near Gilmor Homes in Sandtown-Winchester.

I had no idea black men had such fragile spinal cords.

Police have not given a cause for Gray's injuries or specified why he was arrested, citing an investigation into the incident. Officials are expected to look into any criminal conduct by Gray and whether criminal charges against officers are warranted.

i.e. CYA mode has been fully engaged
 
Last edited:

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Criminal activity has a positive correlation with weak vertebrae.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
I suspect that his injury was self-inflicted. The video of the scene gives no indication of aggressive tactics by the arresting officers. Apparently, he noticed the cops, set off running, and was arrested "without force or incident." http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death/

A severed spine is an extraordinary injury. If it were easy to cause, it would be more common in stories where the victim is set upon by a mob. But it isn't. Here, Gray has no other reported injuries. It's probable that in running away from the cops, he had a bad fall. That would cause a severed spine.
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
If it was a bad fall from running away then why didn't the police department just say that was how the injury occured?
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
If it was a bad fall from running away then why didn't the police department just say that was how the injury occured?

They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion. Ya know, the whole "don't rush to judgment" thing. Oh, wait, maybe you don't about that.

But it would be remarkable if the arresting officers had such talent to severe a spine while not leaving a bruise or scratch on his body. Bike cop jujitsu.
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2001
Messages
799
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
It's probable that in running away from the cops, he had a bad fall. That would cause a severed spine.

So you're telling us that they cuffed a man with a catastrophic neck injury, hoisted him to his feet with his head dangling, and stuffed him in the van?

Those are the steps that we seen in the video. Certainly looks like he's being dragged to the van. Seems exactly the wrong thing to do to someone that had a bad fall and is not fighting back or capable of fighting back.

Maybe he went head first into that brick wall.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
20,142
Location
Minnesota
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
If it was a bad fall from running away then why didn't the police department just say that was how the injury occured?

They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion. Ya know, the whole "don't rush to judgment" thing. Oh, wait, maybe you don't about that.
Coming from someone who literally concocted an explanation, that is pretty ironic.
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
If it was a bad fall from running away then why didn't the police department just say that was how the injury occured?

They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion. Ya know, the whole "don't rush to judgment" thing. Oh, wait, maybe you don't about that.

But it would be remarkable if the arresting officers had such talent to severe a spine while not leaving a bruise or scratch on his body. Bike cop jujitsu.

Almost as remarkable as having a fall bad enough to break his spine while not leaving a bruise or scratch on his body.

Maybe Freddie turned on his black superpowers too quickly and the resultant force broke his spine.

- - - Updated - - -

They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion.

You mean deleting losing as much as they can before announcing a conclusion.
 

Sarpedon

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Messages
2,976
Location
MN, US
Basic Beliefs
the Philosophy of Not Giving a Damn
And that's one of many crazy things about living in a country where there's a trillion dollar gun industry. Carry a rifle down the street, you are a patriot. Carry a knife and you are a criminal.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion. Ya know, the whole "don't rush to judgment" thing. Oh, wait, maybe you don't about that.

But it would be remarkable if the arresting officers had such talent to severe a spine while not leaving a bruise or scratch on his body. Bike cop jujitsu.

Almost as remarkable as having a fall bad enough to break his spine while not leaving a bruise or scratch on his body.

Maybe Freddie turned on his black superpowers too quickly and the resultant force broke his spine.

- - - Updated - - -

They're reviewing as must as they can before announcing a conclusion.

You mean deleting losing as much as they can before announcing a conclusion.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUkbxwzcpUk[/YOUTUBE]
 

RavenSky

The Doctor's Wife
Staff member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
10,705
Location
Miami, Florida
Basic Beliefs
atheist
It's probable that in running away from the cops, he had a bad fall. That would cause a severed spine.

So you're telling us that they cuffed a man with a catastrophic neck injury, hoisted him to his feet with his head dangling, and stuffed him in the van?

Those are the steps that we seen in the video. Certainly looks like he's being dragged to the van. Seems exactly the wrong thing to do to someone that had a bad fall and is not fighting back or capable of fighting back.

Good questions
 

Derec

Contributor
Joined
Aug 19, 2002
Messages
21,174
Location
Atlanta, GA
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Maybe Freddie turned on his black superpowers too quickly and the resultant force broke his spine.

Have you decided to go back to making racial comments in these threads again?

Hard to resist the temptation?

Maybe he just watched too many movies and can't decide whether Grey was Will Smith's John Hancock or Samuel L. Jackson's Elijah Price.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
You are aware that there are differing extents to spinal cord injuries and that link didn't do a good job trying to indicate how a nearly severed spinal cord injury was something to shrug off.

It is odd and bizarre and certainly should make any person on the planet stop and think, "This needs to be thoroughly explained by the officers in an expedited manner."

Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!
 

Derec

Contributor
Joined
Aug 19, 2002
Messages
21,174
Location
Atlanta, GA
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!
It shows that fatal freak spinal injuries can happen relatively easily if you are unlucky.
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
I think we can agree that Freddie Gray was unlucky.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!
It shows that fatal freak spinal injuries can happen relatively easily if you are unlucky.
Unlucky? How many sporting events on the planet, and there is one video of one incident. Seems like unlucky may be an understatement. How many athletes have broken their back in the US during physical play? Three, four? From how many games, how many sports? How many pro wrestlers sever their spine?

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.

It's dreadful, it is, to have a house fall on you, but accidents will happen.
 
Last edited:

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.
 

arkirk

Veteran Member
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,403
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Basic Beliefs
atheist/agnostic
The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.

He was indeed unlucky. He was black, He ran into some police in Baltimore. He got arrested. They broke his spine. Lotsa "bad luck." They are still formulating a story. You'll know soon "how he died.";)

The real problem: COP OPACITY.
 

dismal

Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Messages
10,329
Location
texas
Basic Beliefs
none
The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.

He was indeed unlucky. He was black, He ran into some police in Baltimore. He got arrested. They broke his spine. Lotsa "bad luck." They are still formulating a story. You'll know soon "how he died.";)

The real problem: COP OPACITY.

The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.
 

Sarpedon

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Messages
2,976
Location
MN, US
Basic Beliefs
the Philosophy of Not Giving a Damn
dismal said:
The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!
It shows that fatal freak spinal injuries can happen relatively easily if you are unlucky.

It also because of the nature of the injury. Spinal injuries are highly associated with sport or occupational accidents. (Use the Google should you doubt.) If in an extraordinary rare occurrence a spinal injury happened during a battery, you'd expect to see other indicia of trauma; such as swelling, bruising, scratches, and scars. None have been reported here.

- - - Updated - - -

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody.

No. The police said that he died in their custody. If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody.

No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.
 

dismal

Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Messages
10,329
Location
texas
Basic Beliefs
none
dismal said:
The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.

Wikipedia says the Baltimore PD was 43% black as of the O'Malley administration, which was 1999-2007. It seems odd that an institution that has multiple layers of black management and 43% black membership would be so steeped in racism.

Currently, the department is administered by Commissioner Anthony Batts and Deputy Commissioner of Patrol Garnell Green, both of whom are African American. [24]

During Martin O'Malley's administration as mayor, the department had become 43% African American.[25] While progress has been made to improve the department's relationship with Baltimore's now majority African American community, improvements are still being made to the department which for several years has been subject to criticism for its treatment of African American citizens. Police community relations have remained strained with the war on drugs that has plagued several African American neighborhoods in East and West Baltimore and coincidentally enough, many of the most despised officers in several of Baltimore's African American neighborhoods are also African American.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

He was able to talk in the van, not walk. In the video you can her the women filming yell out that they broke his leg. [They didn't break his leg.]

Police investigators said they still do not understand precisely how — or when — Mr. Gray was injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-police-officers-suspended-in-freddie-gray-inquiry-are-identified.html

- - - Updated - - -

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.

Wikipedia says the Baltimore PD was 43% black as of the O'Malley administration, which was 1999-2007. It seems odd that an institution that has multiple layers of black management and 43% black membership would be so steeped in racism.

Currently, the department is administered by Commissioner Anthony Batts and Deputy Commissioner of Patrol Garnell Green, both of whom are African American. [24]

During Martin O'Malley's administration as mayor, the department had become 43% African American.[25] While progress has been made to improve the department's relationship with Baltimore's now majority African American community, improvements are still being made to the department which for several years has been subject to criticism for its treatment of African American citizens. Police community relations have remained strained with the war on drugs that has plagued several African American neighborhoods in East and West Baltimore and coincidentally enough, many of the most despised officers in several of Baltimore's African American neighborhoods are also African American.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department

As I understand, as long as there is a white heterosexual male walking somewhere on the planet, blame racism.
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
He was able to talk in the van, not walk. In the video you can her the women filming yell out that they broke his leg. [They didn't break his leg.]

Police investigators said they still do not understand precisely how — or when — Mr. Gray was injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-police-officers-suspended-in-freddie-gray-inquiry-are-identified.html

[Mayor] Rawlings-Blake has indicated that the injury probably occurred after Mr. Gray was placed in the van.

I'll reiterate, before Gray's encounter with the police he was fine. After his encounter with the police he was not fine. Which indicates his injury occured during his encounter with the police.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
34,192
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

A traffic accident from something like 20 years ago comes to mind. A friend of the family was rear-ended on the freeway but with a relatively low closing velocity--at the time she didn't realize she had actually been hurt. A few days later she went to the doctor--who promptly sent her to the hospital. Her neck was cracked and hanging by a thread, she could have dropped dead at any moment.

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.
 

credoconsolans

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
2,900
Location
Texas
Basic Beliefs
neopagan leaning toward moral relativism
It would be really bizarre if there was all this huge outpouring of rage and accusations of police brutality and it turns out it was just a freak injury.

It has happened in the past.

One poor kid fell off the last step of the school bus and tore his brainstem. He was dead within minutes.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
25,723
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
As The Good Soldier Švejk says, 'a man under arrest is like a baby in swaddling clothes'. He must be cared for, fed and clothed because he is, by his arrest, rendered incapable of doing these things for himself.

An arrestee is, by law, innocent until he has had his day in court. It is not acceptable to write off any harm that befalls an arrested man as 'accidental'; by depriving him of his liberty to defend himself, to seek medical care and to determine in his own right when and if to leave his current situation, the police must take on the duty of his care themselves; and they must accept responsibility for any harm that befalls him while he is in custody.

Anything less is a denial of civilisation. It is not enough for police not to be brutal. In a civilised society, police must care for prisoners as well as, or even better than, they care for themselves; and they must be seen by society at large to do so. A society that does not make this demand of its police abdicates the right to consider itself civilised.

Whether the motive for failing in their duty to care for a particular arrestee is racism, or simple neglect, changes nothing. Civilised societies do not mistreat arrestees.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
As The Good Soldier Švejk says, 'a man under arrest is like a baby in swaddling clothes'. He must be cared for, fed and clothed because he is, by his arrest, rendered incapable of doing these things for himself.

An arrestee is, by law, innocent until he has had his day in court. It is not acceptable to write off any harm that befalls an arrested man as 'accidental'; by depriving him of his liberty to defend himself, to seek medical care and to determine in his own right when and if to leave his current situation, the police must take on the duty of his care themselves; and they must accept responsibility for any harm that befalls him while he is in custody.

Anything less is a denial of civilisation. It is not enough for police not to be brutal. In a civilised society, police must care for prisoners as well as, or even better than, they care for themselves; and they must be seen by society at large to do so. A society that does not make this demand of its police abdicates the right to consider itself civilised.

Whether the motive for failing in their duty to care for a particular arrestee is racism, or simple neglect, changes nothing. Civilised societies do not mistreat arrestees.

What you write is true, and for which I would agree, once in custody the police are responsible for his care. To say that the police did not timely notice his condition and provide him with medical care is a different question than alleging that they caused his injury; for that, there is no evidence.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

A traffic accident from something like 20 years ago comes to mind. A friend of the family was rear-ended on the freeway but with a relatively low closing velocity--at the time she didn't realize she had actually been hurt. A few days later she went to the doctor--who promptly sent her to the hospital. Her neck was cracked and hanging by a thread, she could have dropped dead at any moment.

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.
I'm curious, what in the fuck would a red flag indicating possible abuse by police look like to you? I understand you don't have a personal anecdote to draw from, but please, if a nearly severed spine isn't a red flag that doesn't prevent instant defense of the police, what in the hell is?
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
12,680
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?
 

Derec

Contributor
Joined
Aug 19, 2002
Messages
21,174
Location
Atlanta, GA
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Unlucky? How many sporting events on the planet, and there is one video of one incident. Seems like unlucky may be an understatement. How many athletes have broken their back in the US during physical play? Three, four? From how many games, how many sports? How many pro wrestlers sever their spine?
And many people get arrested every day. Very unlikely freak accidents will still happen occasionally.

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.
It gives an example of a similar freak accident.

Do you have any evidence this was a "murder" (as the protesters are claiming) and not an accident?
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
And many people get arrested every day. Very unlikely freak accidents will still happen occasionally.
It's dreadful, it is, to have a house fall on you, but accidents will happen. - Glinda from Wicked

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.
It gives an example of a similar freak accident.

Do you have any evidence this was a "murder" (as the protesters are claiming) and not an accident?
Do you have a single shred of evidence to suggest I have claimed this was a murder. What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.
 

Sarpedon

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Messages
2,976
Location
MN, US
Basic Beliefs
the Philosophy of Not Giving a Damn
Freak accidents happen, but the atmosphere of mistrust that has turned this incident into a crisis has been years in the making.

If the police had cultivated trust and good behavior, they could easily sail through the occasional freak accident.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
34,192
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.
Yeah, that'd take experience and training to be able to get a handle on someone faking it.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
27,858
Location
Frozen in Michigan
Gender
Old Fart
Basic Beliefs
Democratic Socialist Atheist
I've heard of cops doing "brake Jobs" on people in their custody. Someone is belligerent, hit the brakes quickly and let them smash into the shield.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
I've heard of cops doing "brake Jobs" on people in their custody. Someone is belligerent, hit the brakes quickly and let them smash into the shield.

That explains why the paddy wagon had a cracked windshield.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on.
Just a near severed spine. That's all. It is serious deal, but we can write that off. I mean other than the whole near severed spine, no indications of any physical abnormalities that could have occurred when in custody.

I mean sure, he was breathing and fine when put into the vehicle and near dead a half hour later when removed, but to suggest something happened to him in the vehicle, there is simply no evidence... (and certainly no reason to suspect something may have happened in there... what are you a cop hater?) excluding the nearly severed spine of course. And we know that at least one case of whacky spine bustage happened in India in a football fixture once. Therefore... what are you looking at?!
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on.
Just a near severed spine. That's all. It is serious deal, but we can write that off. I mean other than the whole near severed spine, no indications of any physical abnormalities that could have occurred when in custody.

I mean sure, he was breathing and fine when put into the vehicle and near dead a half hour later when removed, but to suggest something happened to him in the vehicle, there is simply no evidence... (and certainly no reason to suspect something may have happened in there... what are you a cop hater?) excluding the nearly severed spine of course. And we know that at least one case of whacky spine bustage happened in India in a football fixture once. Therefore... what are you looking at?!

If we're gonna blame the cops for the injury, we need to decide whether the injury occurred at the time Gray was arrested or while he was in the van. Consistency, people, consistency!
 

ksen

Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
6,540
Location
Florida
Basic Beliefs
Calvinist
What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

The autopsy hasn't been released so how do you know none of those things were present?
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
12,680
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.

So you agree with me completely that when someone claims to have a medical issue, Cops call an ambulance and don't try to diagnose it themselves. Then we never again have to watch a video of a man dying in a backseat of a cop car over the course of 8 minutes while he begs for medical attention, or a man with a nearly severed spine getting no medical attention as he cries out for it.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,070
Location
Northwest
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

The autopsy hasn't been released so how do you know none of those things were present?

Good point. The deputy police commissioner is a notorious scallywag.

"The autopsy was done today (Monday) ... We have no evidence of any use of force," Rodriguez said.

Rodriguez said the autopsy shows Gray suffered a serious injury to his spinal cord that caused his death. There were no broken limbs or other injury to his body.

"What we don't have at this point is how Mr. Gray sustained those injuries," Rodriguez said.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/charging-documents-freddie-gray-ran-from-police/32468120
 
Top Bottom