Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ?

[atrib]

He can know anything He wants. And to assert that God must know everything would violate His absolute ability to do anything He wants.

It doesn't matter if god actually chooses to know everything or not. The fact that god can choose to know the future, which would fall under the category of knowing everything, requires that the future be unchangeable. Everything is predetermined. Therefore, free will does not exist. Also, god does not have the power to alter the future, which makes god a programmed robot. So much for omnipotence!

 

[atrib]

I just don't see how my totally spontaneous free will choice to have vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate is rendered null and void by the fact that someone else happens to be able to correctly prophesy my choice.

The two events - my action and the other persons act of prediction - aren't connected by logical necessity. I might be totally unaware that somewhere there exists someone who can say what free choice I will make. Its not like my decisions might be affected by the knowledge that I'm being observed.

If it is predetermined that you will "choose" vanilla instead of chocolate, then it is impossible for you to choose any flavor other than vanilla. Therefore, your choice is an illusion.

 

[atrib]

Omniscience is a subset of omnipotence - it's one of God's abilities.
God can do anything He wants and "to know" is a verb.

He can know anything He wants. And to assert that God must know everything would violate His absolute ability to do anything He wants.

God CAN choose not to know something. And if He can't, then He is not omnipotent.

How do YOU know all this about god?

He made it up.

 

[DBT]

And yet only one is needed.

Lack of evidence.

the only evidence you will accepted when you met god face to face

If that was to happen, I stand face to face with God, it proves me wrong if and when that happens, but it doesn't make me wrong now. As it stands now, there is insufficient evidence to justify a conviction/belief in the existence of a God. That being the logical position to hold until evidence happens to emerge, if it does.

 

[Kharakov]

Omniscience is a subset of omnipotence - it's one of God's abilities.
God can do anything He wants and "to know" is a verb.

He can know anything He wants. And to assert that God must know everything would violate His absolute ability to do anything He wants.

God CAN choose not to know something. And if He can't, then He is not omnipotent.

God: You know what would be fun? Planning out a huge war among these mortals, however, I'll limit myself so that I think I am one of them and barely win everything so I really enjoy it. I'll even set up a bunch of liars who get lots of wealth by preaching about my existence to make it look like there really is no God, just so I really enjoy the win in the body of the mortal.

You know what... I think I'll just make myself into an unsympathetic asshole like myself and enjoy a YUGE win. Screw the people who are smart enough to figure it out, they'd never like or believe in me anyway, because I set up all those liars to make me look like I don't exist...

God 1, smart people \(-\infty\)

 

[LordKiran]

He can know anything He wants. And to assert that God must know everything would violate His absolute ability to do anything He wants.

It doesn't matter if god actually chooses to know everything or not. The fact that god can choose to know the future, which would fall under the category of knowing everything, requires that the future be unchangeable. Everything is predetermined. Therefore, free will does not exist. Also, god does not have the power to alter the future, which makes god a programmed robot. So much for omnipotence!

Ehh, god can alter the future if he wants in this hypothetical, the point is that WE have no control over the future, not that god doesn't.

 

[OLDMAN]

It doesn't matter if god actually chooses to know everything or not. The fact that god can choose to know the future, which would fall under the category of knowing everything, requires that the future be unchangeable. Everything is predetermined. Therefore, free will does not exist. Also, god does not have the power to alter the future, which makes god a programmed robot. So much for omnipotence!

Ehh, god can alter the future if he wants in this hypothetical, the point is that WE have no control over the future, not that god doesn't.

If God knows everything, then he knows he is going to make the changes he is going to make...that doesn't alter the fact he is either determining our future or unaware of it.

 

[DBT]

Yes, as if changing the future is supposed to be a big surprise to an Omniscient Being....''gosh, I didn't know I was going to do that.''

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I never could reconcile materialism with the concept of free will. If we are nothing but neurons firing in response to stimuli, I don't see how we could emerge anything that would qualify as free will. So I have to conclude that free will is an illusion, though I can see how this would be the best argument I can think of for spiritualism. If there is a me making decisions and not just neurons firing and making myself think I am doing so, I don't see why that wouldn't have to be something supernatural. Even then, I'm not sure supernatural fixes anything.

 

[DBT]

The ghost in the machine, if such a thing exists, appears to be overridden by brain state and condition. Chemical imbalances altering perception and thought processes, neuronal connective failures experienced as an inability to recall or recognise. The Ghost, if it exists, appears to have no control of the machine....

 

[blastula]

I never could reconcile materialism with the concept of free will. If we are nothing but neurons firing in response to stimuli, I don't see how we could emerge anything that would qualify as free will. So I have to conclude that free will is an illusion, though I can see how this would be the best argument I can think of for spiritualism. If there is a me making decisions and not just neurons firing and making myself think I am doing so, I don't see why that wouldn't have to be something supernatural. Even then, I'm not sure supernatural fixes anything.

If you believe that, why do you talk as though "you" do make decisions and is if there is a "you" at all?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I never could reconcile materialism with the concept of free will. If we are nothing but neurons firing in response to stimuli, I don't see how we could emerge anything that would qualify as free will. So I have to conclude that free will is an illusion, though I can see how this would be the best argument I can think of for spiritualism. If there is a me making decisions and not just neurons firing and making myself think I am doing so, I don't see why that wouldn't have to be something supernatural. Even then, I'm not sure supernatural fixes anything.

If you believe that, why do you talk as though "you" do make decisions and is if there is a "you" at all?

Well, it's not like he has a choice in the matter or anything.

 

[LordKiran]

I never could reconcile materialism with the concept of free will. If we are nothing but neurons firing in response to stimuli, I don't see how we could emerge anything that would qualify as free will. So I have to conclude that free will is an illusion, though I can see how this would be the best argument I can think of for spiritualism. If there is a me making decisions and not just neurons firing and making myself think I am doing so, I don't see why that wouldn't have to be something supernatural. Even then, I'm not sure supernatural fixes anything.

People are unique in the animal world in that they are possibly the only species on this planet that can willingly and consciously go against their own biological programming. The fact that people regularly and knowingly kill themselves is pretty great in a silver-linings kind of way, because it affirms that we are not slaves to instinct the same way your dog is.

 

[Lion IRC]

The ghost in the machine, if such a thing exists, appears to be overridden by brain state and condition. Chemical imbalances altering perception and thought processes, neuronal connective failures experienced as an inability to recall or recognise. The Ghost, if it exists, appears to have no control of the machine....

Speak for yourself.
The ghost exists and many are able to control their machines quite well.

How to Pass a Lie Detector Test
http://www.livescience.com/33512-pass-lie-detector-polygraph.html

Honing the power to control things with the mind may be much more attainable for those who practice yoga and meditation.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/yogis-a...eurodegenerative-disease-could-benefit-305408

 

[DBT]

The ghost in the machine, if such a thing exists, appears to be overridden by brain state and condition. Chemical imbalances altering perception and thought processes, neuronal connective failures experienced as an inability to recall or recognise. The Ghost, if it exists, appears to have no control of the machine....

Speak for yourself.
The ghost exists and many are able to control their machines quite well.

How to Pass a Lie Detector Test
http://www.livescience.com/33512-pass-lie-detector-polygraph.html

Honing the power to control things with the mind may be much more attainable for those who practice yoga and meditation.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/yogis-a...eurodegenerative-disease-could-benefit-305408

Sorry, but that doesn't support your proposition of a ghost in the machine.

All abilities, cheating lie detector tests, etc, are abilities that are enabled by neural architecture/complexity....rabbits, for example, have no ability to cheat on lie detector tests - or even understand the concept of 'lying'

Neural architecture being the means of consciousness, self, thought and decision making. Inputs, a lie detector test, etc, stimulating neuronal activity, information processing and response. Nor are all people able to cheat the lie detector test, or do calculus, understand highly abstract concepts, etc.....all abilities that are enabled by brain state and condition.

 

[OLDMAN]

We have it backwards. We are not people with brains that we use to figure things out. We are brains with personas, which the brain uses to figure things out.

 

[DBT]

We have it backwards. We are not people with brains that we use to figure things out. We are brains with personas, which the brain uses to figure things out.

Exactly. Brains that develop the means with which to interact with the external world of objects and events, people and places, challenges and pleasures with character and personality, the ability to learn and adapt....as far as the neural architecture and plasticity allows. An intelligent system of information processing, parallel not linear.

 

[Lion IRC]

We are brains with personas not people. We figure out stuff with our brains which makes sense because we are brains. Brains which 'interact' with the matrix external world.

 

[DBT]

We are brains with personas not people. We figure out stuff with our brains which makes sense because we are brains. Brains which 'interact' with the matrix external world.

Brains with bodies and persona's are people. A brain with a body but with a destroyed memory function is brain/body without a persona, which is a living brain/body that is unable to recognize or interact coherently with others.