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Gender Discussion - Split from 'My City, Minneapolis, On Fire'

Metaphor

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1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.
 
1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?
 
1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

What I can personally contribute here is that there were more arsons in my neighborhood last night. The suspects in those arsons are white, and the arsons were at apartment buildings primarily housing people of color.

But sure. I'm racist for white people attempting to burn the houses of black people.
 
1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.

Actually, women have not traditionally had the same rights to inheritance as men. In some states, upon marriage, the husband assumed ownership and control of his wife's assets. Women also have only had the right to vote in the US since 1920. When I first started job hunting as a teen, want ads were marked Male and Female. Men were blatantly paid more than women. I personally was told I didn't need as much money because I'm female--by my boss. When a male high school friend told me what he was earning at a grocery store--and it was about twice what I was earning, I stated my intention to apply for a job where he worked. He just laughed and told me that girls couldn't stock shelves. They had to be cashiers--who got paid about what I was making. Until 1974, women as well as minorities had a difficult time qualifying for credit, even if they were self supporting or the main wage earner in their households. Even now, women tend to pay more on interest rates compared with a male borrower of the same qualifications and credit history. Although it is illegal to do so, women are still scrutinized for signs that she might decide to get pregnant and are assumed to be less interested in careers than men if they have children or if they get married. Women tend to lose ground, financially, when they become parents. Men are seen as more reliable if they are married and if they are parents and are rewarded for it.
 
1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

Nope.
 
1. It continues to happen today. There is a lot of unconscious bias in lending, hiring, education, on the job, etc.


2. It is easier for (in general)/more likely for a white male person to qualify for a business loan because they are more likely to have some wealth already because for hundreds of years, their family was able to acquire and maintain wealth to a much greater extent than women have been able to

You realise this is incoherent, yes? Do you have siblings, Toni? I'm certain that you have the same parents as your siblings. The family that goes back hundreds of years for 'white men' also goes back hundreds of years for white women.

Or, are you proposing that somehow, sons tend to inherit more than daughters? You don't live under Sharia law yet, Toni. Or in primogeniture England.
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

You literally just quoted the facts.

If something happened to your family generations ago (wealth accumulation) that privileges you now, that's true for you and your siblings no matter what your sex, because you have the same family. White women do not somehow come from poorer backgrounds than white men.
 
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

Nope.


Toni, since you refuse to answer my questions, I'll explain to you why your scenario is incoherent.

I have a brother and two sisters. Whatever wealth accumulation my parents and their parents have built up due to generations of white privilege will flow to us when my mother dies. But, if that's true for the white men in the family, it's also true for the white women in the family. My own sisters cannot come from a poorer background than me. If I benefit from my ancestor's accumulation of wealth, than surely my sisters must also, unless white women consistently inherit less than their brothers.

Did you family accumulate wealth due to white privilege, Toni? If so, how is it that you have not benefited from this accumulation, while the the men in your family have? Did you parents, or do your parents plan to, leave the daughters in the family less inheritance?
 
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

You literally just quoted the facts.

If something happened to your family generations ago (wealth accumulation) that privileges you now, that's true for you and your siblings no matter what your sex, because you have the same family. White women do not somehow come from poorer backgrounds than white men.
Your response is incoherent. You have no actual statistics or facts about what women have inherited vis a vis men- you simply made an assertion.
 
Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

Nope.


Toni, since you refuse to answer my questions, I'll explain to you why your scenario is incoherent.

I have a brother and two sisters. Whatever wealth accumulation my parents and their parents have built up due to generations of white privilege will flow to us when my mother dies. But, if that's true for the white men in the family, it's also true for the white women in the family. My own sisters cannot come from a poorer background than me. If I benefit from my ancestor's accumulation of wealth, than surely my sisters must also, unless white women consistently inherit less than their brothers.

Did you family accumulate wealth due to white privilege, Toni? If so, how is it that you have not benefited from this accumulation, while the the men in your family have? Did you parents, or do your parents plan to, leave the daughters in the family less inheritance?

Hey, Metaphor: I don't sit by my computer waiting for demands for my attention from you.

Things may be different in Australia but in the US, parents are not compelled to divide their estates equally among their offspring or to even leave anything at all to their offspring.

Historically, in some states, women could not inherit OR if they did inherit, upon marriage, their husband assumed control if not outright ownership of his wife's assets. This is no longer the case, but only relatively recently. Still some parents leave certain kinds of assets to their daughters and different assets to their sons. Sometimes, a large asset such as a farm or a business is left to an offspring who has shown the most interest and talent/competence in that business or asset. Sometimes assets are divided unevenly because of some real or perceived need of some one or more of the offspring or because some/one of the offspring is disinherited for whatever reason or is seen as unfit or whatever. Many times, a child who remains at home or returns to the home to care for elderly parents in their declining years may inherit the family home.

Aside from that, women were limited in terms of the types of careers they could hold and the types and levels of education they could pursue.

As I pointed out earlier, until about 1974, women did not have the same right to apply for credit or loans as men did, even if they were the main or sole bread winner. Women applying for a mortgage were often required to provide a male co-signer. It takes more than the signage of a law for that law to be enacted and followed. And it takes more than 40 or 50 years to make up for centuries of inequality.

It's great, btw, that your sisters will inherit equally with you. Not all families do that. Sometimes, there is a gender difference, and sometimes there is a difference because of different circumstances of the siblings or the perceived -or real-- needs of particular offspring. I know families where everything was divided equally among surviving children. I know of families where one child was disinherited (for good reason) or where one child inherited a certain valuable asset which was not offset by other assets flowing to other children.

Since you asked, my siblings and I inherited equal shares of a very small estate.

For the most part, my family of origin never had a great deal of wealth. Much/most of what was accumulated prior was wiped out or nearly so by the Great Depression. Grandparents divided their very meager estates between surviving children who were able to use those assets to improve their own positions, economically speaking, although progress was modest. For myself and my siblings: our ability to accumulate more wealth was primarily due to the greater opportunities for education that our parents made certain we were able to take advantage of.

Did being white help? Certainly it did! My parents and grandparents never had very much but they were able to go to school longer than if they had been black. In the area where I lived, there were lots of farmers but all of them were white--and in my county--many of them were related to each other--and to my grandparents. My father chose not to farm and managed to work his way from a watchman at a warehouse to middle management---something that would never have happened if he had had black skin. I know this because there were no management members who were black when he worked there. Despite only a high school diploma, which did limit his ability to advance further in his career, he managed to ensure that his offspring had a much more stable upbringing and much greater access--well, access which he did not have--to higher education and pushed us all to do as well as we could so that we could earn scholarships to attend university--which we did do.

When I went to university, I spent more time in class with not white people than I had collectively throughout my entire life. I learned from friends who were black that they were all counseled to pursue careers in urban development and urban planning, with a high concentration in sociology. These are not usually very lucrative careers. In my calculus classes, there was exactly one black student, a woman who was the best student in the class. In a chemistry lecture of about 400 students, there were two black men. OTOH, I was steered into courses in science and mathematics--which is where I wanted to go. But my black friends had to fight to get the chance to enroll in those classes.
 
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Do you have any actual statistics or facts to buttress your sniping?

You literally just quoted the facts.

If something happened to your family generations ago (wealth accumulation) that privileges you now, that's true for you and your siblings no matter what your sex, because you have the same family. White women do not somehow come from poorer backgrounds than white men.
Your response is incoherent. You have no actual statistics or facts about what women have inherited vis a vis men- you simply made an assertion.

Toni made a series of assertions - none of them challenged by you.

My "assertion" that brothers and sisters have the same ancestors as each other is true by definition.
 
Your response is incoherent. You have no actual statistics or facts about what women have inherited vis a vis men- you simply made an assertion.

Toni made a series of assertions - none of them challenged by you.

My "assertion" that brothers and sisters have the same ancestors as each other is true by definition.

Having the same ancestors is not the same thing as inheriting equally. Nor does it imply having the same access to education, career opportunities or loans or credit.

My 'assertions' about the history of women being limited as to inheritance, educational opportunities, the ability to own property and career opportunities are all easily verified via internet. I even checked a couple of dates myself.
 
Historically, in some states, women could not inherit OR if they did inherit, upon marriage, their husband assumed control if not outright ownership of his wife's assets. This is no longer the case, but only relatively recently.

That's quite irrelevant. Even if, in the past, no white women inherited anything, it means white men did. If your great-grandfathers, but not your great-grandmothers, inherited wealth, that wealth has passed on to you as surely as it passed on to your brothers.

Still some parents leave certain kinds of assets to their daughters and different assets to their sons. Sometimes, a large asset such as a farm or a business is left to an offspring who has shown the most interest and talent/competence in that business or asset. Sometimes assets are divided unevenly because of some real or perceived need of some one or more of the offspring or because some/one of the offspring is disinherited for whatever reason or is seen as unfit or whatever. Many times, a child who remains at home or returns to the home to care for elderly parents in their declining years may inherit the family home.

To what extent inheritances are unequal between men and women now (if they are), that does not mean that unequal, gendered inheritances in the past impact women negatively right now, because men have both sons and daughters.

Aside from that, women were limited in terms of the types of careers they could hold and the types and levels of education they could pursue.

As I pointed out earlier, until about 1974, women did not have the same right to apply for credit or loans as men did, even if they were the main or sole bread winner. Women applying for a mortgage were often required to provide a male co-signer. It takes more than the signage of a law for that law to be enacted and followed. And it takes more than 40 or 50 years to make up for centuries of inequality.

Centuries of inequality can never be made up for. Those people lived and died, and any unearned bennies or unfair hardships are buried with them.

It's great, btw, that your sisters will inherit equally with you. Not all families do that. Sometimes, there is a gender difference, and sometimes there is a difference because of different circumstances of the siblings or the perceived -or real-- needs of particular offspring. I know families where everything was divided equally among surviving children. I know of families where one child was disinherited (for good reason) or where one child inherited a certain valuable asset which was not offset by other assets flowing to other children.

Since you asked, my siblings and I inherited equal shares of a very small estate.

I feel you have failed to grasp the point. Whatever it is you inherited, white women benefited the same way white men did.

Note that this argument does not apply to black and brown families. People of color, if their ancestors were discriminated against and their ancestral wealth (such as it is) diminished, can be disadvantaged by that. That's because there has been a lot of racial segregation in marriage and reproduction.

But there was not - and mostly is not today - sex-segregation in marriage and reproduction. Quite the opposite.

That's why white women descendants qua white people cannot be 'disadvantaged' by the wealth accumulation of white men, since white people married each other and white people have sons as well as daughters. This is true even if, up until your own inheritance, only white men inherited wealth. If your mother inherited nothing because of sexism, that means your father inherited more than his share because of sexism. But the children of your parents union are all white, and they are all going to benefit equally. It cannot be only white men who have benefited from ancestral wealth accumulated partly due to white privilege. Your own situation serves as an example.
 
Having the same ancestors is not the same thing as inheriting equally. Nor does it imply having the same access to education, career opportunities or loans or credit.

You said white men, but not white women, have the benefits of wealth accumulation due to the white privilege of their ancestors. It is logically impossible for this wealth accumulation that is due to whiteness to spread only to white men, unless men never married the opposite sex and unless they only had male offspring. Both of these conditions are false.

You benefit, as a white woman, from the wealth accumulated due to white privilege of your ancestors as much as your white male brothers. You can either accept that or continue to believe the logically impossible.
 
Your response is incoherent. You have no actual statistics or facts about what women have inherited vis a vis men- you simply made an assertion.

Toni made a series of assertions - none of them challenged by you.

My "assertion" that brothers and sisters have the same ancestors as each other is true by definition.
Another incoherent response. Whether I challenged another poster is irrelevant to the fact I asked if you had actual facts or statistics. You don't.

You appear to believe that brothers and sisters having common ancestors means they have the same access to inherited wealth. That is true when there are no wills, but not true when there are wills.

Now, I have no clue what actual data indicates. I strongly suspect neither do you. Which means your original accusation of "incoherence" was pure snipe because you had (and have yet to produce) any actual data to support your snipe.
 
You appear to believe that brothers and sisters having common ancestors means they have the same access to inherited wealth. That is true when there are no wills, but not true when there are wills.

Given that Toni did not show any evidence that women inherited differently to men, she's making the assertion without evidence (that white men benefit from accumulated wealth due to ancestral white privilege that white women do not).

Now, I have no clue what actual data indicates. I strongly suspect neither do you. Which means your original accusation of "incoherence" was pure snipe because you had (and have yet to produce) any actual data to support your snipe.

Of course it is incoherent. Toni puts it in the same paragraph as her assertion about people of colour. People of colour as people of colour could be the losers in a zero-sum game of wealth inheritance, because the ancestors of people of colour are people of colour.

White women today cannot be the losers in a zero-sum game of wealth inheritance vis-a-vis white men, because the ancestors of white women are the same people as the ancestors of white men. This is true even if white women, up until this very generation, never inherited anything.

If, on the other hand, Toni believes white women to inherit less than white men in this generation, I'd like to see evidence of that.
 
This idea that there's lots of families inheriting wealth accumulated hundreds of years ago is idiotic. The parents of the richest man in America were a 17 year-old high school student and a bike shop owner.
 
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Given that Toni did not show any evidence that women inherited differently to men, she's making the assertion without evidence (that white men benefit from accumulated wealth due to ancestral white privilege that white women do not).
I asked if you had any statistics or facts. So why the obsession with what another poster posted?

Now, I have no clue what actual data indicates. I strongly suspect neither do you. Which means your original accusation of "incoherence" was pure snipe because you had (and have yet to produce) any actual data to support your snipe.
Of course it is incoherent. Toni puts it in the same paragraph as her assertion about people of colour. People of colour as people of colour could be the losers in a zero-sum game of wealth inheritance, because the ancestors of people of colour are people of colour.

White women today cannot be the losers in a zero-sum game of wealth inheritance vis-a-vis white men, because the ancestors of white women are the same people as the ancestors of white men. This is true even if white women, up until this very generation, never inherited anything.
Utter nonsense. It is an empirical question, not some incoherent handwaved nonsense.
If, on the other hand, Toni believes white women to inherit less than white men in this generation, I'd like to see evidence of that.
First, you have shifted the goal post, since "this generation" was not the context of her claim. Second, I find it fascinating while you refuse to support your claim of fact, you demand evidence of others.

This is an empirical question. I can see how it can go any direction. Toni's argument has some historical force behind it. Yours is a reasonable guess, but your argument makes a number of assumptions of fact.
 
This idea that there's lots of families inheriting wealth accumulated hundreds of years ago is idiotic. The parents of the richest man in America were a 17 year-old high school student and a bike shop owner.

As Milton Freedman put it, "'Rags to riches in three generations.' is common knowledge." And my family tale starts with a mansion, a designated historic site, which had as guests the President of the U.S. and Amelia Earhart. His son was well off and was not a spendthrift. He had an occupation. I have the business card of his son's son . His occupation was "Gentleman Adventurer." The adventurer's sons inherited very little. I have the name and signet ring of the man who built that mansion -- what's left of his wealth.

When your time comes do you want your wealth to go to your children? The children of the truly wealthy have, not white privilege, but green privilege. I, myself have planned generation skipping -- not my children but grandchildren.
 
This idea that there's lots of families inheriting wealth accumulated hundreds of years ago is idiotic.

No. What’s idiotic is that you really seem to think that anecdotes counter a very large body of evidence.

There aren’t facepalms large enough for your nonsense. There really aren’t.
 
This idea that there's lots of families inheriting wealth accumulated hundreds of years ago is idiotic. The parents of the richest man in America were a 17 year-old high school student and a bike shop owner.

As Milton Freedman put it, "'Rags to riches in three generations.' is common knowledge." And my family tale starts with a mansion, a designated historic site, which had as guests the President of the U.S. and Amelia Earhart. His son was well off and was not a spendthrift. He had an occupation. I have the business card of his son's son . His occupation was "Gentleman Adventurer." The adventurer's sons inherited very little. I have the name and signet ring of the man who built that mansion -- what's left of his wealth.

When your time comes do you want your wealth to go to your children? The children of the truly wealthy have, not white privilege, but green privilege. I, myself have planned generation skipping -- not my children but grandchildren.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that statement, glib assertion though it may be, doesn't account for unequal access to education or disparities in being able to engage in commerce or access the legal system.

Since slogans pass for data in conservative minds 'you have to spend money to make money' which requires not just willingness but capacity.
 
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