Greeks eschew the Euro & resort to grassroots currencies

[dismal]

Right. Because I am not a fool.



Here you make my point with great precision. I don't know who is out there issuing Tems and for what. I don't know who will be willing to take Tems and for what.

That's because you are not a local where this currency is being circulated. Those who have this information are perfectly willing to give them a chance and use them as a medium of exchange.

If you lived in this area, you might very well know the business owners who are issuing them and accepting and trust their word that they'll honor them.

If someone offered me a gift certificate for some random group of small businesses in a different country, I probably wouldn't trust it either. However, if it was a gift certificate for the business just down the block, I would be far more willing to accept it as a type of payment.

I might take Tem if I had some confidence I could unload them before they became worthless. I would still prefer Euros. So I would be worse off unless there were some discount applied.

A $10 gift certificate to Bob's Store is inferior in every way to a $10 bill. I run the risk of Bob's Store going bankrupt. I run the risk of Bob hassling me about taking it or refusing to honor it. I run the risk that some clown prints up 10,000 more counterfeit gift certificates to Bob's store causing Bob to stop honoring them or go bankrupt. I can only use the gift certificate in Bob's Store. Bob may not carry things I like in his store. Bob may price things more expensively than the other stores in town. I may be on the other side of town from Bob's Store when I want to buy something. It may have an expiration date.

If none of these things are a factor it approaches being as good as a $10 bill. It's never better.

And I would add that Tems don't appear to be gift certificates. They are a currency. There is no Bob's store that is contractually obligated stand behind them. There is just the hope someone will take them.

From the article:

One Tem is the equivalent of one euro. My oil and soap came to 70 Tem and with that I bought oranges, pies, napkins, cleaning products and Christmas decorations," said the mother-of-five. "I've got 30 Tem left over.

Who decided her oil and soap were worth 70 Tem? The merchant that bought them? Where did the 70 Tem come from? Did the merchant that bought them make them up from nothing? If he received them in trade who exactly did make them up? What stops a merchant from making up Tem willy nilly for everything he buys? What stops a merchant who has made up a bunch of Tem and received real goods from putting a sign up in his window that says "sorry we no longer accept Tem"?

If Tem exist someone must have created them. If they contain no obligation to redeem anything anywhere the person that created them got some real goods or services for nothing. This creates a strong incentive to make up new Tem. Government's and independent central banks are known to succumb to this temptation (see, Venezuela.) But government's have the advantage they can pass laws and send armies to force people to use their currency. The Tem is just a faith-based currency. An inferior currency to the legal tender. If the ability to create Tem is distributed about the community it's a virtual certainty the currency will devalue and ultimately collapse.

Gresham's Law (Bad Money drives out Good) applies when both Bad and Good are legal tender. When the good money is legal tender and the bad money is not, the law would be more like "Why the eff would the Bad Money even exist?") And the answer would be "If you wait a little bit it won't".

 

[Bronzeage]

That's because you are not a local where this currency is being circulated. Those who have this information are perfectly willing to give them a chance and use them as a medium of exchange.

If you lived in this area, you might very well know the business owners who are issuing them and accepting and trust their word that they'll honor them.

If someone offered me a gift certificate for some random group of small businesses in a different country, I probably wouldn't trust it either. However, if it was a gift certificate for the business just down the block, I would be far more willing to accept it as a type of payment.

I might take Tem if I had some confidence I could unload them before they became worthless. I would still prefer Euros. So I would be worse off unless there were some discount applied.

A $10 gift certificate to Bob's Store is inferior in every way to a $10 bill. I run the risk of Bob's Store going bankrupt. I run the risk of Bob hassling me about taking it or refusing to honor it. I run the risk that some clown prints up 10,000 more counterfeit gift certificates to Bob's store causing Bob to stop honoring them or go bankrupt. I can only use the gift certificate in Bob's Store. Bob may not carry things I like in his store. Bob may price things more expensively than the other stores in town. I may be on the other side of town from Bob's Store when I want to buy something. It may have an expiration date.

If none of these things are a factor it approaches being as good as a $10 bill. It's never better.

And I would add that Tems don't appear to be gift certificates. They are a currency. There is no Bob's store that is contractually obligated stand behind them. There is just the hope someone will take them.

From the article:

One Tem is the equivalent of one euro. My oil and soap came to 70 Tem and with that I bought oranges, pies, napkins, cleaning products and Christmas decorations," said the mother-of-five. "I've got 30 Tem left over.

Who decided her oil and soap were worth 70 Tem? The merchant that bought them? Where did the 70 Tem come from? Did the merchant that bought them make them up from nothing? If he received them in trade who exactly did make them up? What stops a merchant from making up Tem willy nilly for everything he buys? What stops a merchant who has made up a bunch of Tem and received real goods from putting a sign up in his window that says "sorry we no longer accept Tem"?

If Tem exist someone must have created them. If they contain no obligation to redeem anything anywhere the person that created them got some real goods or services for nothing. This creates a strong incentive to make up new Tem. Government's and independent central banks are known to succumb to this temptation (see, Venezuela.) But government's have the advantage they can pass laws and send armies to force people to use their currency. The Tem is just a faith-based currency. An inferior currency to the legal tender. If the ability to create Tem is distributed about the community it's a virtual certainty the currency will devalue and ultimately collapse.

Gresham's Law (Bad Money drives out Good) applies when both Bad and Good are legal tender. When the good money is legal tender and the bad money is not, the law would be more like "Why the eff would the Bad Money even exist?") And the answer would be "If you wait a little bit it won't".

It does begin to sound like a Craigslist scam, where the buyer is sending a someone with a money order to pick up the item. The money order is made out for twice the sale price, and you are supposed to cash the money order and give this person the difference.

Tems are a fiat currency made up of IOU's. Instead of paying for a haircut, I give my barber a certificate good for an oil change. He can trade his oil change for a couple pairs of socks, or maybe get a plumber to snake his drains. It works as well as any currency, until one person says he isn't going to play anymore.

 

[Axulus]

Some technical details about the system:

“The group’s concept is simple. People sign up online and get access to a database that is kind of like a members-only Craigslist. One unit of TEM is equal in value to one euro, and it can be used to exchange good and services. Members start their accounts with zero, and they accrue credit by offering goods and services. They can borrow up to 300 TEMs, but they are expected to repay the loan within a fixed period of time.

Members also receive books of vouchers of the alternative currency itself, which look like gift certificates and are printed with a special seal that makes it difficult to counterfeit. Those vouchers can be used like checks. Several businesspeople in Volos, including a veterinarian, an optician and a seamstress, accept the alternative currency in exchange for a discount on the price in euros.”

http://p2pfoundation.net/TEM_Local_Alternative_Unit_-_Greece

As I suspected, it really acts more like a microloan system, where the loan is in units that can only be used to purchase goods/services from members who have joined. I'm also guessing this gets around the burdensome financial regulations that would otherwise make microloans unprofitable. It is marketed as a way to boost the local economy (rightly or wrongly), which, combined with ability to get microloans, is likely what is attracting people to sign up.

 

[dismal]

Some technical details about the system:

“The group’s concept is simple. People sign up online and get access to a database that is kind of like a members-only Craigslist. One unit of TEM is equal in value to one euro, and it can be used to exchange good and services. Members start their accounts with zero, and they accrue credit by offering goods and services. They can borrow up to 300 TEMs, but they are expected to repay the loan within a fixed period of time.

Members also receive books of vouchers of the alternative currency itself, which look like gift certificates and are printed with a special seal that makes it difficult to counterfeit. Those vouchers can be used like checks. Several businesspeople in Volos, including a veterinarian, an optician and a seamstress, accept the alternative currency in exchange for a discount on the price in euros.”

http://p2pfoundation.net/TEM_Local_Alternative_Unit_-_Greece

As I suspected, it really acts more like a microloan system, where the loan is in units that can only be used to purchase goods/services from members who have joined. I'm also guessing this gets around the burdensome financial regulations that would otherwise make microloans unprofitable. It is marketed as a way to boost the local economy (rightly or wrongly), which, combined with ability to get microloans, is likely what is attracting people to sign up.

So, the only reason the TEM exists is I can sign up for it and print 300 of them for myself. I can't print Euros, so if I'm the sort of person who wants to get real goods and services for money I don't have I print the Tem. They are not "eschewing the Euro" they are embracing free stuff.

I think generally as currencies go this would be considered a bug not a feature.

 

[Axulus]

Some technical details about the system:



http://p2pfoundation.net/TEM_Local_Alternative_Unit_-_Greece

As I suspected, it really acts more like a microloan system, where the loan is in units that can only be used to purchase goods/services from members who have joined. I'm also guessing this gets around the burdensome financial regulations that would otherwise make microloans unprofitable. It is marketed as a way to boost the local economy (rightly or wrongly), which, combined with ability to get microloans, is likely what is attracting people to sign up.

So, the only reason the TEM exists is I can sign up for it and print 300 of them for myself. I can't print Euros, so if I'm the sort of person who wants to get real goods and services for money I don't have I print the Tem. They are not "eschewing the Euro" they are embracing free stuff.

I think generally as currencies go this would be considered a bug not a feature.

It's not free - you are entering into a contract to pay the loan back, either in Euros or in TEMs, within a specified period of time.

While you might prefer Euros - if you can still make a risk adjusted profit as a small business in Greece with TEMs, you might very well accept them. It's kind of like a way to price discriminate. Those with plenty of euros probably won't bother to obtain TEMs. It therefore allows you to increase sales and hence profits by a little bit.

 

[dismal]

So, the only reason the TEM exists is I can sign up for it and print 300 of them for myself. I can't print Euros, so if I'm the sort of person who wants to get real goods and services for money I don't have I print the Tem. They are not "eschewing the Euro" they are embracing free stuff.

I think generally as currencies go this would be considered a bug not a feature.

It's not free - you are entering into a contract to pay the loan back, either in Euros or in TEMs, within a specified period of time.

While you might prefer Euros - if you can still make a risk adjusted profit as a small business in Greece with TEMs, you might very well accept them. It's kind of like a way to price discriminate. Those with plenty of euros probably won't bother to obtain TEMs. It therefore allows you to increase sales and hence profits by a little bit.

Who is going to enforce that contract?

 

[Axulus]

It's not free - you are entering into a contract to pay the loan back, either in Euros or in TEMs, within a specified period of time.

While you might prefer Euros - if you can still make a risk adjusted profit as a small business in Greece with TEMs, you might very well accept them. It's kind of like a way to price discriminate. Those with plenty of euros probably won't bother to obtain TEMs. It therefore allows you to increase sales and hence profits by a little bit.

Who is going to enforce that contract?

Presumably Greece has a functioning legal system - I'm sure small claims court is an option if it came down to it.

There is a non-profit organization that is the central hub for this currency - it would be up to them to enforce it.

 

[dismal]

Who is going to enforce that contract?

Presumably Greece has a functioning legal system - I'm sure small claims court is an option if it came down to it.

There is a non-profit organization that is the central hub for this currency - it would be up to them to enforce it.

Assuming they had any inclination to do so, where are they going to get the time and money to chase these people down, bring them to court, and enforce a judgment?

Keeping in mind the pot of gold at the end of the process is <= 300 Euros.

 

[Axulus]

Presumably Greece has a functioning legal system - I'm sure small claims court is an option if it came down to it.

There is a non-profit organization that is the central hub for this currency - it would be up to them to enforce it.

Assuming they had any inclination to do so, where are they going to get the time and money to chase these people down, bring them to court, and enforce a judgment?

Keeping in mind the pot of gold at the end of the process is <= 300 Euros.

The legal system is a blunt instrument - most people are trustworthy and can work out their disputes with out bringing in heavy handed enforcement.

Just look at repayment rates for microloans in general, Kiva for example:

Total amount lent through Kiva: $673,413,050
Kiva Users: 2,064,785
Kiva Users who have funded a loan: 1,260,255
Borrowers funded through Kiva: 1,557,053
Number of loans made through Kiva: 842,136
Kiva Field Partners: 291
Countries where Kiva Field Partners are located: 86
Repayment rate: 98.77%
Average loan size: $417.11
Average loans made per Kiva lender: 9.83

If there are similar repayment rates with the TEM, I'm sure the system can function fine with some sort of minor merchant fee. A 1.3% loss is less than most credit card transaction fees. Easily made up with the additional profit they are getting from the extra business it generates.

 

[bilby]

Presumably Greece has a functioning legal system - I'm sure small claims court is an option if it came down to it.

There is a non-profit organization that is the central hub for this currency - it would be up to them to enforce it.

Assuming they had any inclination to do so, where are they going to get the time and money to chase these people down, bring them to court, and enforce a judgment?

Keeping in mind the pot of gold at the end of the process is <= 300 Euros.

Keep in mind that if people acted the way you assume that they should act, there would be no such thing as a gift certificate.

Being a dumb idea that is doomed to certain failure hasn't prevented other fiat currencies (or other ideas of all kinds) from becoming highly successful. Which suggests that we need more than just 'it is demonstrably a dumb idea' to predict the failure of any new scheme. People are not rational actors, and assuming that they are - or even that they usually are; or that they are in the long term - is therefore not a recipe for a successful economic forecast or prediction.

Gift certificates exist. Pet rocks exist. Tems exist, and are being used by Greeks.

Observation always trumps theory.

 

[dismal]

Assuming they had any inclination to do so, where are they going to get the time and money to chase these people down, bring them to court, and enforce a judgment?

Keeping in mind the pot of gold at the end of the process is <= 300 Euros.

Keep in mind that if people acted the way you assume that they should act, there would be no such thing as a gift certificate.

Being a dumb idea that is doomed to certain failure hasn't prevented other fiat currencies (or other ideas of all kinds) from becoming highly successful. Which suggests that we need more than just 'it is demonstrably a dumb idea' to predict the failure of any new scheme. People are not rational actors, and assuming that they are - or even that they usually are; or that they are in the long term - is therefore not a recipe for a successful economic forecast or prediction.

Gift certificates exist. Pet rocks exist. Tems exist, and are being used by Greeks.

Observation always trumps theory.

Gift certificates are not a currency. They don't exist because they are better than currency. They are certainly worse than currency as I have already described in the thread.

As for TEMs they exist today.

Because of the naïve utopianism of some and the desire for free stuff of others. We'll see how that holds up as the basis for a currency.

 

[Bronzeage]

Assuming they had any inclination to do so, where are they going to get the time and money to chase these people down, bring them to court, and enforce a judgment?

Keeping in mind the pot of gold at the end of the process is <= 300 Euros.

Keep in mind that if people acted the way you assume that they should act, there would be no such thing as a gift certificate.

Being a dumb idea that is doomed to certain failure hasn't prevented other fiat currencies (or other ideas of all kinds) from becoming highly successful. Which suggests that we need more than just 'it is demonstrably a dumb idea' to predict the failure of any new scheme. People are not rational actors, and assuming that they are - or even that they usually are; or that they are in the long term - is therefore not a recipe for a successful economic forecast or prediction.

Gift certificates exist. Pet rocks exist. Tems exist, and are being used by Greeks.

Observation always trumps theory.

Two critical elements of a fiat currency never change. First, there must be a government which issues the currency, and second, this government must accept this currency for tax payments, and have the practical power to force people to pay those taxes.

The word government can be replaced by International Corporation, or Warlord, and it all works the same. If the person with the power accepts the paper, the paper is good.

 

[arkirk]

Keep in mind that if people acted the way you assume that they should act, there would be no such thing as a gift certificate.

Being a dumb idea that is doomed to certain failure hasn't prevented other fiat currencies (or other ideas of all kinds) from becoming highly successful. Which suggests that we need more than just 'it is demonstrably a dumb idea' to predict the failure of any new scheme. People are not rational actors, and assuming that they are - or even that they usually are; or that they are in the long term - is therefore not a recipe for a successful economic forecast or prediction.

Gift certificates exist. Pet rocks exist. Tems exist, and are being used by Greeks.

Observation always trumps theory.

Two critical elements of a fiat currency never change. First, there must be a government which issues the currency, and second, this government must accept this currency for tax payments, and have the practical power to force people to pay those taxes.

The word government can be replaced by International Corporation, or Warlord, and it all works the same. If the person with the power accepts the paper, the paper is good.

The United States began its existence with an emergency currency. (the Continental) Regardless of whether it has always been a moral or ethical operation, the government here has persisted for several hundred years. Whatever monetary device the Greeks resort to, it is definitely only a temporary thing and not the culmination of a Utopian plan. It is silly to criticize whatever they do at this point on the basis of it not being able to last too long.

This international finance business has proven to more of a square dance than some sort of lasting and solid set of relationships. They just keep changing partners. This partner changing relates only to the music of the haves, but sometimes they have to go to the barber themselves.
When you see where Greece is geopraphically, you should take that into account. The Greeks sent their representatives and will continue to send their representative to all the financial centers of the world as a matter of protocol and not so much a matter of actual hope for resolution of the problem of onerous debt.

 

[Bronzeage]

Two critical elements of a fiat currency never change. First, there must be a government which issues the currency, and second, this government must accept this currency for tax payments, and have the practical power to force people to pay those taxes.

The word government can be replaced by International Corporation, or Warlord, and it all works the same. If the person with the power accepts the paper, the paper is good.

The United States began its existence with an emergency currency. (the Continental) Regardless of whether it has always been a moral or ethical operation, the government here has persisted for several hundred years. Whatever monetary device the Greeks resort to, it is definitely only a temporary thing and not the culmination of a Utopian plan. It is silly to criticize whatever they do at this point on the basis of it not being able to last too long.

This international finance business has proven to more of a square dance than some sort of lasting and solid set of relationships. They just keep changing partners. This partner changing relates only to the music of the haves, but sometimes they have to go to the barber themselves.
When you see where Greece is geopraphically, you should take that into account. The Greeks sent their representatives and will continue to send their representative to all the financial centers of the world as a matter of protocol and not so much a matter of actual hope for resolution of the problem of onerous debt.

Onerous is not really the proper word to use in this situation.

If the nation of Greece were a man, he would be a man with all his credit cards maxed out and was taking small loans from his friends, just for lunch money. To compound his problems, he misses a lot of work. That's the problem. He spends more than he makes and he makes less than he could.

The Greek government operated at a deficit far beyond their ability to sustain and covered it up with accounting tricks which did not reveal the extent of the debt.

Just like a deadbeat borrower, the lenders don't see any point in lending more money when there seems no chance of getting it back, and also like a deadbeat borrower, his family suffers, even though they had nothing to do with all of this.

Greece has only two ways out of this mess. First, is find people who will come to Greece with some money and spend it there. Let's hope they buy meals and wine, not the Parthenon. Second, is make something other European countries want to buy.

I used to buy Greek wine. It was reasonably priced and tasted good. I haven't seen it on a shelf for at least 20 years or more. I would happily contribute to the Greek economic revival, if I could get a couple cases.

 

[bilby]

The United States began its existence with an emergency currency. (the Continental) Regardless of whether it has always been a moral or ethical operation, the government here has persisted for several hundred years. Whatever monetary device the Greeks resort to, it is definitely only a temporary thing and not the culmination of a Utopian plan. It is silly to criticize whatever they do at this point on the basis of it not being able to last too long.

This international finance business has proven to more of a square dance than some sort of lasting and solid set of relationships. They just keep changing partners. This partner changing relates only to the music of the haves, but sometimes they have to go to the barber themselves.
When you see where Greece is geopraphically, you should take that into account. The Greeks sent their representatives and will continue to send their representative to all the financial centers of the world as a matter of protocol and not so much a matter of actual hope for resolution of the problem of onerous debt.

Onerous is not really the proper word to use in this situation.

If the nation of Greece were a man, he would be a man with all his credit cards maxed out and was taking small loans from his friends, just for lunch money. To compound his problems, he misses a lot of work. That's the problem. He spends more than he makes and he makes less than he could.

The Greek government operated at a deficit far beyond their ability to sustain and covered it up with accounting tricks which did not reveal the extent of the debt.

Just like a deadbeat borrower, the lenders don't see any point in lending more money when there seems no chance of getting it back, and also like a deadbeat borrower, his family suffers, even though they had nothing to do with all of this.

Greece has only two ways out of this mess. First, is find people who will come to Greece with some money and spend it there. Let's hope they buy meals and wine, not the Parthenon. Second, is make something other European countries want to buy.

I used to buy Greek wine. It was reasonably priced and tasted good. I haven't seen it on a shelf for at least 20 years or more. I would happily contribute to the Greek economic revival, if I could get a couple cases.

Comparing national economies with personal or household economies is a poor idea.

Lending to a man who spends more than he makes, and makes less than he could, would be a bad idea.

But if he was both immortal and unable to lose his job (although he can take a small paycut, his income will never fall very far, and certainly not to zero), the situation is very different. In fact, he sets his own wages to some extent, and can give himself a raise at any time - although if he sets his wage too high, there is a good chance that he will get a cut in hours.

 

[tupac chopra]

Onerous is not really the proper word to use in this situation.

If the nation of Greece were a man, he would be a man with all his credit cards maxed out and was taking small loans from his friends, just for lunch money. To compound his problems, he misses a lot of work. That's the problem. He spends more than he makes and he makes less than he could.

Some friends! You'd think they'd have arranged an intervention rather than being "enablers".
Maybe they do want his Parthenon?

I did buy some Greek wine the other day. I was down the back in the international section trying to get something exotic to impress my GF. I wasn't even sure what it was till I got it home, but for once she was stumped as to where it was from when she tried it.i

 

[arkirk]

Onerous is not really the proper word to use in this situation.

If the nation of Greece were a man, he would be a man with all his credit cards maxed out and was taking small loans from his friends, just for lunch money. To compound his problems, he misses a lot of work. That's the problem. He spends more than he makes and he makes less than he could.

The Greek government operated at a deficit far beyond their ability to sustain and covered it up with accounting tricks which did not reveal the extent of the debt.

Just like a deadbeat borrower, the lenders don't see any point in lending more money when there seems no chance of getting it back, and also like a deadbeat borrower, his family suffers, even though they had nothing to do with all of this.

Greece has only two ways out of this mess. First, is find people who will come to Greece with some money and spend it there. Let's hope they buy meals and wine, not the Parthenon. Second, is make something other European countries want to buy.

I used to buy Greek wine. It was reasonably priced and tasted good. I haven't seen it on a shelf for at least 20 years or more. I would happily contribute to the Greek economic revival, if I could get a couple cases.

Comparing national economies with personal or household economies is a poor idea.

Lending to a man who spends more than he makes, and makes less than he could, would be a bad idea.

But if he was both immortal and unable to lose his job (although he can take a small paycut, his income will never fall very far, and certainly not to zero), the situation is very different. In fact, he sets his own wages to some extent, and can give himself a raise at any time - although if he sets his wage too high, there is a good chance that he will get a cut in hours.

Have you ever heard of unemployment?..not the insurance, the fact. Unemployment is very high in Greece. What causes this...no money in the system to hire people to work. You both are assuming that Greeks are lazy louts who shirk work. Have you any documentation to prove that Greeks are of such bad character it is THEIR LAZINESS that has caused the economy to grind to a halt? Your language merely reflects ethnic prejudice. If the system is broken, you can say about anything about those stuck within the system and it won't be challenged in Fox's America. They can't answer here for themselves and you truly do not know the conditions that prevail in their lives.

If his credit cards are maxed out, it is because he does not have a sufficient wage or sufficient work available to meet his expenses. His condition may not be a character flaw so much as one in his understanding. We have the same thing in this country and it has been as bad off as Greece is now. When the depression occurred in this country, it was not due to a bad society of lazy greedy workers, but to too many speculators who expected miraculous wealth to materialize from massive short term speculation. Onerous is the word for the debt Greece and any country that finds itself in similar straits. There seems to be a will to punish the innocent on the basis of a kind of nationalistic or ethnic prejudice. The U.S. working class is saddled with huge credit card debts and makes less than it SHOULD.

Your conception of the average Greek working man is similar to Ronald Reagan's framing of black people as salient exemplars...a blight of lazy welfare sucking sluggards lacking ambition for anything but their greed for welfare checks. Reagan's "welfare queen" was an idea to further Reagan's political agenda and not a reality. His actual agenda and one which his framing promoted was to shift more and more wealth to the rich. It was always obvious to some of us that his language was merely an excuse to hold the wages of American workers down to promote increased profits for employers. Such policies have consequences and they look a lot like Greece looks today, no matter where they take hold and fulminate. These are policies of prejudice against the poor that reward the rich.

It is easy to point fingers at a whole nation of people, just because you are not where they are economically THIS WEEK. Next week things could be very different. Our stock market is not a place where well considered trade occurs. It has become a place where computer with lightning fast response play out various trading programs which are little more than ideological algorithms to manipulate the market for profits irrespective of the type of operation being traded.

To my way of thinking, even at the time it happened, it was a mistake for Greece to join the EU. This move bore no fruit for them...only debt. If the Turks have any sense, they will avoid this machine that treats is southern neighbors different from the north.

If there was a fair balance of money in the country there could be the circulation of that money that would produce jobs and incomes. Supply side economics give all the power to major holders of wealth. If they are unscrupulous, then you have a tightening of the economy and capital flight from the actual working economy of the country. That is so obvious I should not even have to reiterate that here.

 

[Archimedes]

Wouldn't a more stable way to create currency just be to create IOU certificates or gift cards? "The bearer of this certificate can exchange it for 10 euro on demand with business X", or "the bearer of this certificate can redeem it for 10 euro worth of goods/services from business X.".

Whats the difference between that and a 10 euro note?

 

[bilby]

Comparing national economies with personal or household economies is a poor idea.

Lending to a man who spends more than he makes, and makes less than he could, would be a bad idea.

But if he was both immortal and unable to lose his job (although he can take a small paycut, his income will never fall very far, and certainly not to zero), the situation is very different. In fact, he sets his own wages to some extent, and can give himself a raise at any time - although if he sets his wage too high, there is a good chance that he will get a cut in hours.

Have you ever heard of unemployment?..not the insurance, the fact. Unemployment is very high in Greece. What causes this...no money in the system to hire people to work. You both are assuming...<snipped rant>...

For someone who professes to dislike assumption, you are sure doing a lot of it here.

You might want to re-read what I wrote, which was a criticism of the validity of Bronzage's analogy, and not the agreement with it that you appear to have assumed.

Perhaps if you were to read and think about what others post, and then take some deep breaths and type a cool, reasoned and collected post with less colour and more respect for the nuance of what others post, rahther than a preconceived idea of what you think they might have posted, you could get your ideas across more effectively, and have less chance of having them dismissed as a mindless tirade.

A nation cannot lose its source of income. A nation never dies. A nation is therefore not like a person.

That is my point; I am fully aware of what unemployment is, and I do others the courtesy of assuming that they are too. You might try doing the same.

 

[tupac chopra]

A nation cannot lose its source of income. A nation never dies.

Really?