Greenpeace thugs force Shell icebreaker to turn around

[Jimmy Higgins]

Huh?

To be specific when control freaks can still get away with making women seem in the wrong when they defend something for which they fought to attain and preserve a right and compare with those bad environmentalists protesting the probable destruction of sensitive environment against a corporate giant that routinely buys favor and judgments to do so, one is standing on high side the uneven playing floor and crying foul.

I was merely pointing out the similarity of blocking the passage of a ship doing something legal with blocking women doing something legal. Just because you disagree with somebody doing something does not give you the right to prevent people doing it.

But you called them thugs. You are shifting goalposts.

And for christ's sake, web boards have been around for two decades, yet no goalpost shifting smilies?!

 

[Derec]

Good news!
US Judge Rules Greenpeace in Contempt for Oregon Protest
$2,500/h is maybe a bit cheap but it'll add up if they keep up the nonsense.
That judge is an Obama appointee by the way.

 

[Derec]

But you called them thugs.

I think people that want to coerce people to follow their political opinions are thugs. Same thing with people who would block abortion clinic access.

You are shifting goalposts.

Nope.

And for christ's sake, web boards have been around for two decades, yet no goalpost shifting smilies?!

Should the smiley feature soccer goals or handegg goals? Or maybe hockey as a compromise?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Good news!
US Judge Rules Greenpeace in Contempt for Oregon Protest
$2,500/h is maybe a bit cheap but it'll add up if they keep up the nonsense.
That judge is an Obama appointee by the way.

There was an act of civil disobedience. There were arrests. There were fines. Seems all is right, other than you calling the protestors "thugs".

- - - Updated - - -

I think people that want to coerce people to follow their political opinions are thugs.

So your definition of Thugs needs a trademark then?

 

[Jayjay]

Thats a poor analogy. Blocking a person's access to a medical service is far worse than blocking relatively minor financial loss and possibly tarnished public image to a corporation. Shell is a big corporation, they can fight their own battles and I see absolutely no need for anyone else to get outraged about it.

As for Portland police, they are not the private security of Shell and they might have more important things to do than to stop a few people rappeling down from a bridge, such as preventing bicycle accidents or interrogating lesbian bookstore owners.

[youtube]mQdu9SfSrxE[/youtube]

How did you determine the financial loss was minor? What is the daily value of the ice breaker ship and the wages of the crew that operates it?

Even if it costs millions of dollars per day, relative to Shell's size, that's still a minor inconvenience.

On top of that, there are losses to the rest of society due to disrupted energy supplies. This incident is a small part of the global energy picture, but that doesn't make the impact of the disruption zero.

It's not a disruption, because this is expoloration of future reserves that may or may not be exploited. But looking at it from that point of view, what's the cost of carbon that will be released to the atmosphere? In the end, Greenpeace might be actually doing all of us a favor by reducing global warming by some small measure.

 

[cycomiko]

I was merely pointing out the similarity of blocking the passage of a ship doing something legal with blocking women doing something legal because of a political disagreement). Just because you disagree with somebody doing something does not give you the right to prevent people doing it.

I know you weren't responding to me but...
Arrests are ok in both cases. That doesn't make any of the protesters thugs. As long as there's no violence by any of those people, I see it as a very American thing to do. The protest sheds light on a particular issue (abortion, global warming/arctic drilling, etc etc) and if enough of the public agrees with the opinions of the protesters, the "political will" begins to strengthen to do something about it.

 

[laughing dog]

They are committing acts of civil disobedience. I still don't see how that makes them "thugs".

Civil disobedience == crimes committed when you agree with the cause.
If a group were to prevent women entering an abortion clinic do you think police should not arrest them?

No, but that would not make them "thugs" unless the prevention harmed the women.

 

[bilby]

How did you determine the financial loss was minor? What is the daily value of the ice breaker ship and the wages of the crew that operates it?

Even if it costs millions of dollars per day, relative to Shell's size, that's still a minor inconvenience.

On top of that, there are losses to the rest of society due to disrupted energy supplies. This incident is a small part of the global energy picture, but that doesn't make the impact of the disruption zero.

It's not a disruption, because this is expoloration of future reserves that may or may not be exploited. But looking at it from that point of view, what's the cost of carbon that will be released to the atmosphere? In the end, Greenpeace might be actually doing all of us a favor by reducing global warming by some small measure.

If Greenpeace are interested in reducing global warming, they could do VASTLY more towards that goal by changing their policy on nuclear power from their current strong opposition to one of strong support.

Anti-nuclear protesters are at least as much to blame for global warming as oil companies.

 

[Jayjay]

Even if it costs millions of dollars per day, relative to Shell's size, that's still a minor inconvenience.

On top of that, there are losses to the rest of society due to disrupted energy supplies. This incident is a small part of the global energy picture, but that doesn't make the impact of the disruption zero.

It's not a disruption, because this is expoloration of future reserves that may or may not be exploited. But looking at it from that point of view, what's the cost of carbon that will be released to the atmosphere? In the end, Greenpeace might be actually doing all of us a favor by reducing global warming by some small measure.

If Greenpeace are interested in reducing global warming, they could do VASTLY more towards that goal by changing their policy on nuclear power from their current strong opposition to one of strong support.

Anti-nuclear protesters are at least as much to blame for global warming as oil companies.

I agree. But this particular incident is not an anti-nuclear protest. And as far as being anti-nuclear goes, Shell and Greenpeace are allies.

 

[Togo]

I think Derec sort of has a point. There is a distinction between people who deliberately break the law in their protest, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, and those who stay within the law, such as the well-known and renowned ... uh.. um.. well, you get the point.

He wants to call Ghandi a thug, he has a consistent definition to do it, I say he can go for it. He wouldn't be the first.

 

[atrib]

What percent of total police encounters involving an arrest end in death?

Not very many. How many deaths resulting from excessive use of force by police do you consider acceptable?

 

[Bomb#20]

Thugs? They are impeding an icebreaker from moving. They have caused no damage to the ship. They have hurt no one. The only damage could be said to be economical. I wasn't aware that got someone tossed under the "thug" category.

“Do you understand what I'm saying?" shouted Moist. "You can't just go around killing people!"

"Why Not? You Do." The golem lowered his arm.

"What?" snapped Moist. "I do not! Who told you that?"

"I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly.

"I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!"

"No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”

― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

 

[Valjean]

What environmental catastrophe?

http://www.endangeredspeciesinternational.org/overview.html
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/21/mass-extinction-science-warning
Global warming/greenhouse gasses appear to have been factors in several of these events.

Blockading a ship is a crime. They should be arrested and charged. What's wrong with that?

Lots of things are crimes. What's a crime today maybe legal tomorrow. What's illegal here may be legal one county over. It was once illegal to hide Dutch Jews in an Amsterdam attic.
Law changes all the time, and it's frequently unjust, hurtful or counter-productive.
A slavish conformity to law and convention is a dangerous thing. The welfare of humanity and the Planet trumps law.

 

[RavenSky]

Thugs? They are impeding an icebreaker from moving. They have caused no damage to the ship. They have hurt no one. The only damage could be said to be economical. I wasn't aware that got someone tossed under the "thug" category.

He must have seen that one of them was a black man.

 

[Derec]

Global warming/greenhouse gasses appear to have been factors in several of these events.

Captain Obvious is obvious.
But CO₂ is emitted when any fossil fuels are used. It is not limited to Arctic drilling in US exclusive economic zone (200 nautical miles) waters. Even when restricting oneself to Arctic, a number of different countries are pursuing development even outside their EEZ.

Why should ability of US to produce our own oil be selectively sacrificed and all the other countries be allowed to produce freely?
Restricting the use of fossil fuels will come from the demand side. Which raises the question - what did these danglivists and kayactivists use to get themselves and their plastic kayaks and other fancy gear to Portland? Fossil fuel burning SUVs and airplanes perhaps? "Do as I say not as I do", the maxim of the hypocrite!

Lots of things are crimes. What's a crime today maybe legal tomorrow. What's illegal here may be legal one county over. It was once illegal to hide Dutch Jews in an Amsterdam attic.
Law changes all the time, and it's frequently unjust, hurtful or counter-productive.
A slavish conformity to law and convention is a dangerous thing. The welfare of humanity and the Planet trumps law.

I am talking about laws guaranteeing freedom of movement. That is the same principle that disallows pro-lifers from blocking access to abortion clinics. I think that is a very good legal principle that should not be sacrificed just because you disagree with the one exercising their freedom of movement on political grounds. Remember, pro-lifers are claiming higher moral ground as well because in their minds they are preventing murders.

Anyway, the good news is that the ship was able to pass safely despite the "protesters".

 

[Ford]

Anyway, the good news is that the ship was able to pass safely despite the "protesters".

Well thank goodness. If it had gone much further there might have been a false rape claim, and we know how that upsets you.

 

[Derec]

He must have seen that one of them was a black man.

Well thank goodness. If it had gone much further there might have been a false rape claim, and we know how that upsets you.

If you do not have any valid arguments, goad and derail.
Btw Ford, any relation to old Henry?

 

[Ford]

Well thank goodness. If it had gone much further there might have been a false rape claim, and we know how that upsets you.

If you do not have any valid arguments, goad and derail.
Btw Ford, any relation to old Henry?

At the risk of giving you an inch, I must admit to being surprised about this thread. As far as I'm aware it is your first in a very long time (perhaps ever) that is not about some perceived injustice visited upon men, about some perceived injustice visited upon white people, or false rape claims.


You're expanding your horizons, apparently.

 

[laughing dog]

Anyway, the good news is that the ship was able to pass safely despite the "protesters".

Seems your emotional rhetoric about "thugs" was overblown - no harm no foul.

 

[Derec]

Seems your emotional rhetoric about "thugs" was overblown - no harm no foul.

Not so much overblown as the Greenpeacenicks were not up to their usual standards of vandalism. They did not even try to board the vessel!
I also wonder how the 13 danglivists avoided heat exhaustion. It was reportedly above 100°F in Portland and they dangled up there for 40 hours.