H1-Bs -- some damning data

[prideandfall]

the price of fruit would go up like 5,000 percent

Well, then they could pay a lot of money to people to harvest that fruit.

You're saying immigrants are destroying those high paid jobs.

right because one thing americans would totally do is pay 40 dollars for a bottle of orange juice or 90 dollars for a cantaloupe.

 

[dismal]

Well, then they could pay a lot of money to people to harvest that fruit.

You're saying immigrants are destroying those high paid jobs.

right because one thing americans would totally do is pay 40 dollars for a bottle of orange juice or 90 dollars for a cantaloupe.

You're the one that said price would go up 5000%. Not me.

But you've got some of the economics correct now. If the wage of fruit pickers were higher the price of fruit would go up. If the price went up the demand would go down.

But a higher price of fruit allows growers to pay people more to pick fruit.

There'd be an equilibrium. Without immigrant labor there'd be fewer, higher paying fruit jobs and less, more expensive fruit.

When you bring in a new supply of labor the new equilibrium is at a lower fruit picker wage and cheaper fruit.

But if you're talking about software instead of fruit, well, um, it's, well, er, exactly the same.

 

[laughing dog]

Someone was not paying attention in econ 101. Labor markets are notoriously slow to "equilibrate". High demand jobs usually means jobs for which there is a current shortage of workers (i.e the market wage has not risen sufficiently to bring the market to an equilibrium).

But dismal asked exactly what high demand jobs are and what are low demand jobs. They are based on their wage.

No, they are not. It is based on whether there is shortage at the wage.

Everybody wants to a bank manager because it pays as high as it does.

No, they do not. I know lots of people who do not want to be a bank manager.

Nobody wants to clean toilets because it pays lower than other opportunities.

And yet, people clean toilets. And, I knew people who did want to clean toilets.

But even then we can only say we think it's high demand.

I fail to see the relevance.

 

[bilby]

Questioning? How are your internal thought processes forming a concept into a query something real?

If you want to have a discussion about the reality of human social structures, start a thread in the philosophy forum and anyone who's interested in such a discussion can join you in staring at each other's navel lint. I am not one of those people, so I will not be joining you in that thread.

Okay. But the whole argument comes down to. I deserve a job because I was born between two imaginary lines. tomorrow we could easily say that there is no border between Canada and the US.

Most of human society is based on imaginary concepts. The USA is imaginary, so is the Microsoft corporation, so is the US dollar. Almost everything we do is based on the shared acceptance of imaginary constructs. This is not actually a problem, nor does it render those constructs any less real. The USA exists because we agree that it exists. If enough people stop agreeing that it exists, then it will stop existing. Until then, it is real, because enough people agree that it is real and act as though it was real. Whether it is reflective of any kind of fundamental truth is irrelevant, in the same way that Christianity is real, whether or not Jesus ever actually existed.

 

[lpetrich]

The American people benefit as consumers from things being cheaper.

So "consumers" have a right to get everything for free? Do "consumers" get their money from picking money trees on their property?

No nation has ever achieved prosperity by forcing things to be artificially more expensive.

We did that by abolishing slavery. The US was soon conquered by European nations, as we all know (sarcasm).

You are not entitled to earn a high salary for a given profession at the expense of others.

Except, of course, for business leaders and other members of the economic elite. Right, dismal?

But the whole argument comes down to. I deserve a job because I was born between two imaginary lines.

So you don't recognize the legitimacy of nation-states? I thought that right-wingers believed in patriotism and were opposed to a one-world government.

 

[dismal]

So "consumers" have a right to get everything for free? Do "consumers" get their money from picking money trees on their property?

No nation has ever achieved prosperity by forcing things to be artificially more expensive.

We did that by abolishing slavery. The US was soon conquered by European nations, as we all know (sarcasm).

You are not entitled to earn a high salary for a given profession at the expense of others.

Except, of course, for business leaders and other members of the economic elite. Right, dismal?

Wow, you got almost all the elements of leftist argument in there.

Poor reading comprehension, failure to address the actual point being made, general assholery, and the invocation of slavery! Points off only because you left out Hitler.

tip: I am advocating voluntary exchange among free citizens. If anyone is on the side of Hitler and slavery here it's you.

 

[lpetrich]

So "consumers" have a right to get everything for free? Do "consumers" get their money from picking money trees on their property?
We did that by abolishing slavery. The US was soon conquered by European nations, as we all know (sarcasm).

You are not entitled to earn a high salary for a given profession at the expense of others.

Except, of course, for business leaders and other members of the economic elite. Right, dismal?

Wow, you got almost all the elements of leftist argument in there.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo Talk about content-free name-calling.

tip: I am advocating voluntary exchange among free citizens.

Empty ideological blather.

 

[Tristan Scott]

Well, then they could pay a lot of money to people to harvest that fruit.

You're saying immigrants are destroying those high paid jobs.

right because one thing americans would totally do is pay 40 dollars for a bottle of orange juice or 90 dollars for a cantaloupe.

They wouldn't, and herein lies the problem.

These industries would die here-the orchards and fields would go fallow, or be developed for some other purpose and these commodities would be imported.

It's happened before, the sugar beet industry used to be big in colorado and SW Wyoming, but when they were forced to hire American Union labor, the industries died and the land has mostly gone to alfalfa production and the processing plants have closed.

If we think it sucks being dependent on foreign oil, wait till we are dependent on foreign food.

 

[bilby]

right because one thing americans would totally do is pay 40 dollars for a bottle of orange juice or 90 dollars for a cantaloupe.

They wouldn't, and herein lies the problem.

These industries would die here-the orchards and fields would go fallow, or be developed for some other purpose and these commodities would be imported.

It's happened before, the sugar beet industry used to be big in colorado and SW Wyoming, but when they were forced to hire American Union labor, the industries died and the land has mostly gone to alfalfa production and the processing plants have closed.

If we think it sucks being dependent on foreign oil, wait till we are dependent on foreign food.

How is either worse than being dependent on foreign workers?

It's an international economy. Everyone is dependent upon foreigners for something - even the North Koreans, despite their almost suicidal attempts to avoid it.

 

[denarius]

Sixty Minutes ran an expose tonight (Mar 19) on the subject of H-1B visas and how they are being abused by corporate interests. The original H-1B visa law prevented foreigners from taking jobs away from U.S. citizens, but corporate lobbying got Congress to add a loophole to the law which allows companies to fire highly paid citizen workers and replace them with cheap foreign workers on H-1B visas. In many cases, the companies are forcing the fired workers to train their replacements. How can anyone not think that this is outrageous?

http://twitchy.com/wa-37/2017/03/19...e-malkin-take-a-look-at-the-h1b-visa-program/

 

[atrib]

By what magick do temporary workers depress wages but immigrants not?

The magick is that the H1-B worker arrives in the US for a salary, and the nature of his H1-B says that he must stay with that company and in that job or go back to his country of origin. He cannot demonstrate his skills and get hired to a better position, the H1-B won't let him. He is bonded to that job. The employer knows this and has no reason to pay a higher price to someone who is not bonded, the H1-B worker can't leave for a company or even an internal transfer to a position that he has proved he can do.

That's how. The H1-B depresses wages because he is not mobile. He is not free to compete for other jobs for quite a few years.

Actually, that is not true. If the H-1B worker can find another employer willing to hire him and sponsor his H-1B work visa, he is free to move when said employer files the appropriate paperwork with USCIS. In fact, this move does not even count against the total H-1B visa annual quota set by law since it is considered a transfer, not a new applicant for a new visa.

 

[atrib]

Bottom line, India/China have way more IT monkeys than they can support. So american born IT monkeys must "suffer"

Does the American need to lose their jobs in such away. It needs to ensure work visas are only issued where there is a shortage of skills and these skills are not paid less than the average in the company that hires them. This is not fully enforceable but works quite well in Hong Kong.

This is the correct answer. Better enforcement of existing laws to reduce/eliminate abuse.

 

[Trausti]

Sixty Minutes ran an expose tonight (Mar 19) on the subject of H-1B visas and how they are being abused by corporate interests. The original H-1B visa law prevented foreigners from taking jobs away from U.S. citizens, but corporate lobbying got Congress to add a loophole to the law which allows companies to fire highly paid citizen workers and replace them with cheap foreign workers on H-1B visas. In many cases, the companies are forcing the fired workers to train their replacements. How can anyone not think that this is outrageous?

http://twitchy.com/wa-37/2017/03/19...e-malkin-take-a-look-at-the-h1b-visa-program/

Well, enough did think it outrageous that Trump got elected. In earlier times, one would imagine the Dems criticizing H1-Bs as hurting American workers (which they do). However, since the Dems shifted to identity politics (native = stale/bad; foreigner = vibrant/good), HB-Bs are good for "diversity." The pragmatic Trump was able to snatch this issue from them. Good. I don't care if the person who fixes this has an R or D or I by their name, just fix it.

 

[Underseer]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-...commentary-the-h1b-problem-as-ieeeusa-sees-it

Most of them are making far below market rate. Strangely enough, a lot are making a little over the threshold that greatly reduces the scrutiny.

Fake news!

You're citing a communist news source because you obviously hate our freedom! You're probably working with the immigrants, who are all rapists and terrorists! Fake news!

 

[Underseer]

Employers need the freedom to hire whomever they want. Loren has launched an all-out attack on our freedoms that is going to cost jobs!!!!! Fake news! Make America great again!!!!!!!! [/Conservolibertarian]

 

[Tristan Scott]

They wouldn't, and herein lies the problem.

These industries would die here-the orchards and fields would go fallow, or be developed for some other purpose and these commodities would be imported.

It's happened before, the sugar beet industry used to be big in colorado and SW Wyoming, but when they were forced to hire American Union labor, the industries died and the land has mostly gone to alfalfa production and the processing plants have closed.

If we think it sucks being dependent on foreign oil, wait till we are dependent on foreign food.

How is either worse than being dependent on foreign workers?

1. Believe it or not, we have very tight controls on the produce that is grown in this country. The standards for food produced in many other countries are not as stringent.

2. Like with everything else it is beneficial to produce commodities here because of residual benefits such as equipment sales, fertilizer and soil conditioner sales.

3. The initial revenue from the sales of these commodities stays here, unless the fields are owned by foreign investors.

4. If we are dependent on foreign countries for our food, geo-political decisions can be influenced due to that dependence, much like it is with oil.

There are I'm sure many other reasons.

 

[Underseer]

How is either worse than being dependent on foreign workers?

1. Believe it or not, we have very tight controls on the produce that is grown in this country. The standards for food produced in many other countries are not as stringent.

2. Like with everything else it is beneficial to produce commodities here because of residual benefits such as equipment sales, fertilizer and soil conditioner sales.

3. The initial revenue from the sales of these commodities stays here, unless the fields are owned by foreign investors.

4. If we are dependent on foreign countries for our food, geo-political decisions can be influenced due to that dependence, much like it is with oil.

There are I'm sure many other reasons.

Any business that cannot survive if it pays a living wage doesn't deserve to exist.

If you argue that we have to exploit workers that way, then you are admitting that capitalism is a failure and that we would be better off with the long bread lines of a communist system.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Lower labor cost is good for consumers, so bring on the immigrant workers!

Well, ya. Isn't the entire point of them to reduce salaries so that the upper echelons of the company can keep more of the money, so that the upper 1% get even richer?

That's not the ultimate end, but just the means.

The real point is to serve consumers better, by lowering the cost of production, which results in lower prices. It's not the upper 1% vs. the workers -- it's the overpaid workers vs. consumers.

The "entire point" is to serve consumers better.

That's the rationale for about 90% of American laws. It would be kind of racist if the laws affecting foreigners had a different standard than the laws affecting Americans.

There's only one standard that matters: Serve the consumers better, whatever it takes. I.e., the function of business is to serve consumers, not pander to the crybaby wage-earners.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

A little healthy exploitation is good for the economy.

The H1-B is a bit of a farce now. It had good intentions to begin with but a lot of companies use it inappropriately and exploit the people on it.

It's inappropriate only for uncompetitive crybabies. But it's appropriate for consumers who are made better off.

 

[Juma]

That's not the ultimate end, but just the means.

The real point is to serve consumers better, by lowering the cost of production, which results in lower prices. It's not the upper 1% vs. the workers -- it's the overpaid workers vs. consumers.

The "entire point" is to serve consumers better.

That's the rationale for about 90% of American laws. It would be kind of racist if the laws affecting foreigners had a different standard than the laws affecting Americans.

There's only one standard that matters: Serve the consumers better, whatever it takes. I.e., the function of business is to serve consumers, not pander to the crybaby wage-earners.

The "entire point" is to build a good society where people live good lives.