Harmlessly Stupid Beliefs

[LoAmmo]

My wife and I noticed an online ad for a beaded "Tree of Life" bracelet while reading a non-related news article, and both thought it looked so perfect for our daughter we ended up buying it.
But, in examining the options on the site, which is teamplanting.com, I also noticed several ridiculous new-age-y claims, such as:

...you might not realize that there are 114 energy centers and 72,000 channels in your body. These channels ("nadis") facilitate the movement of prana, the life force that exists in all living things. One of the best ways to achieve chakra balance is through the use of gemstones' healing properties. By keeping this energetic system active, clean, and flowing, you will feel better, be more energetic, and be more balanced.

Make yourself a go-getter, a dreamer, and a positive thinker! Our one-of-a-kind bracelet is endowed with outstanding healing qualities.

Our one-of-a-kind bracelet helps you release any toxic emotions stopping you from living your natural state of joy and vitality.

One enthusiastic reviewer gushed, in his five-star review, that

I felt a strong sense of energy after putting this on. I won't say it works for everyone but it works for me. I was diagnosed with cancer in January and have been undergoing chemotherapy since then. After putting this bracelet on, I could feel the energy and went to the doctor; my cancer is now gone. I am so relieved and happy that I am cancer free.

uhhhhhhhhhhhh, bolding mne.

The product description for another bracelet casually mentioned that minerals have a deep wisdom, as a result of their having lived/existed deep in the Earth for untold generations, and wearing them --you guessed it--grants the wearer some measure of insight into that wisdom.

Couple of thoughts here:

I don't know why it's "not enough" to simply offer beautiful pieces of jewelry that feature various gemstones/minerals, because many of their pieces ARE visually very stunning. I mean, I know why--they're marketing to a niche of deluded people who believe, to one degree or another, these laughably inane claims, while not alienating buyers such as myself who are in it simply for the beautiful piece of jewelry as a gift. Reality is apparently just too boring for some percentage of people.

Secondly, I'm at least struck by the relative harmlessness of these particular beliefs being held--even deeply--by their adherents. We're not in any danger of federal, state, or local governments passing new laws recognizing these claims or prescribing behavior with the assumption that they are real. Unlike the HOST of existing and potential new laws coming from (let's just say it) Conservative legislative bodies which directly or indirectly draw their motivation from perceived Christian values. Anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, transphobic (and other) such beliefs are as equally stupid as the claims made on behalf of a bracelet made from tourmaline beads, but FAR from equally harmless.

To what degree, I wonder, is a given belief's harmlessness, its essentially inconsequential impact even when believed/expressed/acted upon, a contributing factor in much MORE harmful and consequentially impactful beliefs becoming normalized and imposed on society as a whole?

 

[steve_bank]

I would not say beliefs are stupid as a generalization. Beliefs can be and are beneficial to individuals.

Like anything human, beliefs can be carried to a harmful extreme.

 

[LoAmmo]

The belief that minerals are imbued with "wisdom," as a result of their long "experience" accumulated from life deep in the Earth, is stupid. There's a period at the end of that sentence because it's over. Full stop. That's stupid.

If you believe that, you're stupid.

I know how intolerant that sounds, but...I'm also tired of pretending that demonstrably false claims have equal merit, and are due the same degree of consideration, as demonstrably true claims, purely in the name of a less confrontational social equilibrium.

The belief that the Earth is flat is stupid, and if you believe it, YOU are stupid. Anyone who doesn't like the way that sounds is out of luck, with me.
There are plenty of beliefs I am very willing to say are stupid, as a generalization.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I would not say beliefs are stupid as a generalization.

I don't see where anyone did.

But belief that a rock has an old soul? I wonder how the soul enjoyed the tumble in teh polisher... Or when the big stone was made into 30 beads, did they get thirty new old souls?
This shit's stupie.

 

[LoAmmo]

This shit's stupie.

Precisely.

And to refuse to label that particular idea as such does no favors to either the misguided souls who do believe it OR the rest of us.
The general concept that some sort of decorum precludes dumb ideas being shouted down as dumb is, I think, part of the problem:

The (well-intentioned, perhaps) social construct that, ideally, all opinions are to be respected, "allowed" to be held and expressed, is a wide net, that allows dumb-but-harmless ideas (Rocks have old souls) to freely pass through as well as dumb-but-dangerous ideas (Trump really won the 2020 election, but was cheated out of it by widespread Democratic fraud.)
Yes, there is more public pushback on the dumb-but-dangerous ideas, especially when they are fairly widely believed and amplified--which is good, in my view--but I wonder if pushing back even on the dumb-but-harmless ones wouldn't help create an atmosphere where demonstrably false claims had a much harder path to acceptance than they do now.

I didn't really want this to be framed as a Free Speech issue (although obviously that's a factor), so much as a question of, do we invite the dumb-and-dangerous to take hold more easily by casually allowing all the dumb-but-harmless to pass, more or less unchallenged?

Should merchants be legally allowed to make claims that they could never hope to prove using evidentiary standards, such as in a court of law?

If truth matters (not that I'm convinced it does, any more) it should matter from one end of the spectrum to the other, if it's put out there for wide public exposure. In a way it reminds me of the old adage that "if you allow graffiti on buildings, the end result is abandoned buildings with no windows, being used as crack houses, in a crime-ridden neighborhood." The graffiti is essentially harmless, but what it leads to is undeniably bad. I just wonder if by freely allowing the graffiti, so to speak, we're not inviting the undeniably bad results that, at least in part, flow from that acceptance.

 

[Keith&Co.]

People are easily confused on this.
I HAVE to respect your right to HAVE an opinion.
I do NOT have to respect the content of your opinion. Patton Oswalt has a great routine about this. If your belief in the floating invisible anus is keeping you from murder, more power to you. I, however, will not be ascribing my morality to the floating invisible anus or the shit weasels within it.

Should merchants be legally allowed to make claims that they could never hope to prove using evidentiary standards, such as in a court of law?

In the case of experienced stone beadwork, it's less harmful than National Enquirer headlines, or lottery tickets sold to people who are math-challenged.
Caveat Emptor.

 

[skepticalbip]

My wife and I noticed an online ad for a beaded "Tree of Life" bracelet while reading a non-related news article, and both thought it looked so perfect for our daughter we ended up buying it.
But, in examining the options on the site, which is teamplanting.com, I also noticed several ridiculous new-age-y claims, such as:

It is the new agey claims that is being sold on that site. There is a lot of profit in catering to people who want to believe. Other sites sell the jewelry from the same manufacturer (without the stories) for about half the price.

 

[steve_bank]

I would not say beliefs are stupid as a generalization.

I don't see where anyone did.

But belief that a rock has an old soul? I wonder how the soul enjoyed the tumble in teh polisher... Or when the big stone was made into 30 beads, did they get thirty new old souls?
This shit's stupie.

Playing Devil's Advocate, why not a wise rock?

The original Star Trek narrative was logical rational Spock vs emotional MaCoy. Neither understood the other. In between was Kirk who balanced the logic and reason with emotion and irrationality.

Those of us who for whaterver reason ended up on the side of reason and science can loose sight of the fact that humans are emotional and irrational. You only have to look at the world.

If somebody believes a spirit lives in a rock and it helps him, that is ok. If the rock spirit tells him to go kill non believers in rock spurts that is not good and violates civil law.

Right now we are seeing yet more death and destruction in Ukraine from the national 'spirit' residing in Russia.

I believe we all have an inescapable irrationality. I don't think it is possible to retain sanity trying to live and think with absolute logic every day.

The Seahawks QB Russel Wilson has been traded to Denver. It is liberally traumatic to many Seahawks fans. Some teary eyed in intervuews. Some came to see Wilson as a member of their family and spak as if he is a persoanl friend.

So to me befriending a rock spirit is atypical but not unexpected.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I would not say beliefs are stupid as a generalization.

I don't see where anyone did.

But belief that a rock has an old soul? I wonder how the soul enjoyed the tumble in teh polisher... Or when the big stone was made into 30 beads, did they get thirty new old souls?
This shit's stupie.

Playing Devil's Advocate, why not a wise rock?

What mechanism is there to acquire, store, and analyze information?

The original Star Trek narrative was logical rational Spock vs emotional MaCoy. Neither understood the other. In between was Kirk who balanced the logic and reason with emotion and irrationality.

Spock understood McCoy quite well. Vulcans are not completely without emotions, they just refuse to be ruled by them. McCoy indulged his emotions, but he was a trained scientist. He understoid Spock quite well, he just thought certain questions demanded an emotional investment.
Kirk just got to pick and choose whether to depend on the emotional Hor rational path because he's the captain, dammit.

Those of us who for whaterver reason ended up on the side of reason and science can loose sight of the fact that humans are emotional and irrational. You only have to look at the world.

How can we ever lose sight of that fact? Just listen to anyone try to prove their choice was the rational one.

If somebody believes a spirit lives in a rock

They said the rock was wise, not home to a kami.

and it helps him, that is ok.

Never said it wasn't okay. Said it was stupid. They still have a right to be stupid. It just costs them a lot more

If the rock spirit tells him to go kill non believers in rock spurts that is not good and violates civil law.

But the belief in the rock is still stupid. Help, hurt, or neutral, buying a necklace because the seller offers you the wisdom stowed inside, without giving you the method of accessing the wisdom, is spending money stupidly...which makes that belief stupid.

Right now we are seeing yet more death and destruction in Ukraine from the national 'spirit' residing in Russia.

No, we're seeing the result of gaslighting, strong-arming, and the consolidation of power into a central figure. No one's replacing their healing tiger's eye brooch with a Ukranian Nazi heliotrope ring.
A whole different order of stupid.

I believe we all have an inescapable irrationality.

Which is the point of peer review, spellcheckers, beta readers, various systems to try to avoid the unavoidabld irrationality.

I don't think it is possible to retain sanity trying to live and think with absolute logic every day.

No one ever suggested doing so. Except in some Star Trek fanfic that misses the whole point of Vulcan stoicism.

The Seahawks QB Russel Wilson has been traded to Denver. It is liberally traumatic to many Seahawks fans.

That's sportball? Hiw does sportball make 'wisdum rok' any less stupid?

Some teary eyed in intervuews. Some came to see Wilson as a member of their family and spak as if he is a persoanl friend.

'Kay.

So to me befriending a rock spirit is atypical but not unexpected.

It's certainly not beyond the realm of human possibility, with or without cheap trendy mind expanding hallucinogenic pharmaceuticals.
And they have their right to do so.
But seriously, that does not in any way make it less stupid.

Humans voted for Trump. The fact that they were not alone, that the constitution cherished their right to do so, in no way lessened the stupidity.

You're playing category hop-scotch.

 

[Elixir]

A rock knows how to rock,
sure as a lock knows how to lock.
You can chuck it or tuck it
Deep in your pocket
In case someone you know needs a knock.

 

[steve_bank]

Waht I said is the way I look at things, there is form and content.

People walk around wearing the jersey of a pro athlete feeling imbued with the perceived spirit of the athlete. Christians wear a cross feeling imnbued with the percieved spirut of Jesus. Same form different content. People wear t-shirts of a band feeling they are in the spirit of the band.

We humans seem to need something to believe in for stability.

When I go to bed I sometimes listen to George Norey's Coast To Coast AM on the radio. A central place to go fr pseodoscince, conspiracy theories, UFOs and the rest. You can go to it online. There are running reports of global UFOs..

People call into the show. The range of beliefs are astounding at least to me, and they are all probably fully functional and harmless in the world. I don't begrudge any of then their beliefs.

Sometimes the show drifts into what I consider harmful pseudo-medicine. Rational sounding 'experts' who say COVID can be cured and prevented with wild plants.

Religion, psodo-science, UFOs, and Big Foot to me are all the same basic form, human imagination.

What I take to be objective rational science can be and has been harmful. The science myth is all science investigation is fundamntaly good. The future will see where genetic engineering will lead.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My one brother attends mass every sunday, takes communion, prays, etc. as a catholic. He once remarked about how stupid some of the Mormon beliefs are. Christian beliefs are as dumb as any new agey horseshit.

The dividing line for me is scientific naturalism but I don't call out stupid beliefs every time I find them, I ignore them mostly unless I see someone being hurt by them because they are scientifically illiterate. Then I try to help.

Stupid beliefs get normalized by people who are scientifically ignorant.

 

[Hermit]

I'm at least struck by the relative harmlessness of these particular beliefs being held--even deeply--by their adherents.

The belief in the magic powers of amulets and assorted trinkets can have fatal results for the believer, as well as cause extreme anguish and materially deleterious consequences for the believer's consequence. I don't know how frequently this happens, but I do know one person who decided to do without conventional medical help because they were convinced that wearing their magic bracelet and covering themselves with their magic blanket will get rid of the melanocytic mole that developed on their right forearm. The outcome was predictable and tragic for their partner and three children.

 

[Hermit]

The belief that the Earth is flat is stupid, and if you believe it, YOU are stupid.

Generally speaking, although stupidity is an enabler of stupid ideas, people who believe in stupid ideas are not necessarily stupid. There is such a thing as compartmentalisation. One could be a Young Earth Creationist who insists that everything in the Bible is literally true, yet perform competently in a job that demands high levels of skill and a thorough understanding of the knowledge required to do it well.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Waht I said is the way I look at things,

Slightly to the side of the topic you responded to.

That humans tend to do this sort of thing doesn't make it any less stupid.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The belief that the Earth is flat is stupid, and if you believe it, YOU are stupid.

Generally speaking, although stupidity is an enabler of stupid ideas, people who believe in stupid ideas are not necessarily stupid. There is such a thing as compartmentalisation. One could be a Young Earth Creationist who insists that everything in the Bible is literally true, yet perform competently in a job that demands high levels of skill and a thorough understanding of the knowledge required to do it well.

I suppose we could classify some statements people make as stupid, but maybe we should label them as mistaken beliefs, not stupid beliefs. At least if we label them as mistaken beliefs we're not making a judgement about the person so much as about the person's rational state that leads to them making such statements. We're not all the same mentally and our individual mental states change.

Does a person act on those statements of belief? That's the important question. People that do may end up in psyche wards because they pose a danger to themselves and society depending on the belief. People use "holy water" and magical objects in my extended family and pray to invisible creatures but those beliefs don't seem to impact their lives or mine. We're all free to ignore.

Stroke victims say the darndest things sometimes because their brains have been affected. Again, their rational faculties have been compromised so we can understand the behavior. Kids are impressionable and may mime something they heard so we understand.

Regardless the mistaken belief or statement the decider is a person's behavior. Mistaken beliefs typically say that a person isn't overly bright and informed when it comes to rational thought. That's pretty much it.

 

[Hermit]

The belief that the Earth is flat is stupid, and if you believe it, YOU are stupid.

Generally speaking, although stupidity is an enabler of stupid ideas, people who believe in stupid ideas are not necessarily stupid. There is such a thing as compartmentalisation. One could be a Young Earth Creationist who insists that everything in the Bible is literally true, yet perform competently in a job that demands high levels of skill and a thorough understanding of the knowledge required to do it well.

I suppose we could classify some statements people make as stupid, but maybe we should label them as mistaken beliefs, not stupid beliefs. At least if we label them as mistaken beliefs we're not making a judgement about the person so much as about the person's rational state that leads to them making such statements. We're not all the same mentally and our individual mental states change.

Does a person act on those statements of belief? That's the important question. People that do may end up in psyche wards because they pose a danger to themselves and society depending on the belief. People use "holy water" and magical objects in my extended family and pray to invisible creatures but those beliefs don't seem to impact their lives or mine. We're all free to ignore.

Stroke victims say the darndest things sometimes because their brains have been affected. Again, their rational faculties have been compromised so we can understand the behavior. Kids are impressionable and may mime something they heard so we understand.

Regardless the mistaken belief or statement the decider is a person's behavior. Mistaken beliefs typically say that a person isn't overly bright and informed when it comes to rational thought. That's pretty much it.

Why not just look at beliefs, people and behaviour as separate entities that could be mixed in various ways?

 

[Swammerdami]

The belief that minerals are imbued with "wisdom," as a result of their long "experience" accumulated from life deep in the Earth, is stupid. There's a period at the end of that sentence because it's over. Full stop. That's stupid.

If you believe that, you're stupid.

Much religion, or spirituality more generally, involves using ideas or talismans to channel one's thinking and decision-making. Self-hypnosis is a word that comes to mind, though probably not the best.

Call it a "placebo" effect if you wish, but focusing on some ideas — even "false" ideas — can improve one's spiritual and emotional trajectory. If a person somehow feels empowered or enlightened by holding or contemplating some mineral, I say: More power to them!

 

[bilby]

The belief that minerals are imbued with "wisdom," as a result of their long "experience" accumulated from life deep in the Earth, is stupid. There's a period at the end of that sentence because it's over. Full stop. That's stupid.

If you believe that, you're stupid.

Much religion, or spirituality more generally, involves using ideas or talismans to channel one's thinking and decision-making. Self-hypnosis is a word that comes to mind, though probably not the best.

Call it a "placebo" effect if you wish, but focusing on some ideas — even "false" ideas — can improve one's spiritual and emotional trajectory. If a person somehow feels empowered or enlightened by holding or contemplating some mineral, I say: More power to them!

And do you say the same about the people who exploit that feeling to extract money from the gullible?

Being stupid is no crime. But exploiting stupid people by selling them magic rocks is fraud. People should go to jail for it far more often than they do.

Churches that collect donations should be required to prove that their religion is based on facts, or to return all the money they cheated out of their congregations.

Selling my granny a new roof that her house doesn't need and that you have neither the means nor the intent to install, is apparently different in some important way from selling her life after death that you cannot possibly actually provide.

I am not sure how these two frauds differ (other than in trivial matters of detail), but one is routinely prosecuted, while the other is loudly supported by politicians and senior law enforcement officials.