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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

The Gnostic wing of Christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to Christianity and Catholicism.

If the old Gnostic Christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original Orthodox Catholic Church or it's various offshoots in Protestantism or Islam. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have a fit and would be quite disappointed I think. I know that this Gnostic Christian is.

The two main differences that moved the old Christians to kill Gnostic Christians and burn their scriptures was literalism in reading scriptures and the fact that the Gnostic version of Jesus was a Universalist.

That Gnostic Christian Jesus, and the Gnostic Christians of that flavor, (there are likely as many Gnostic sects as Christian sects), sees a spark of God in all people including women and gays. That fact, to me, makes Gnostic Christianity a more desirable denomination of Christianity than all the rest.

If a religion cannot abide with equality of the sexes then to my mind it is not a just religion and is not worthy of the support of moral people. Inequality is an immoral position and most of the Abrahamic cults are of that immoral persuasion.

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?

Regards
DL
 

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What happened to the Gnostic Christians of old was a travesty, however the fact that your woo is very different from the woo of mainstream Christianity doesn't really change the fact that it's woo. It's all just a pile of ad hoc fallacies and argument from ignorance fallacies. Whether the fallacies in question are more imaginative or more appealing than the fallacies of the next religion is pretty much beside the point.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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What happened to the Gnostic Christians of old was a travesty, however the fact that your woo is very different from the woo of mainstream Christianity doesn't really change the fact that it's woo. It's all just a pile of ad hoc fallacies and argument from ignorance fallacies. Whether the fallacies in question are more imaginative or more appealing than the fallacies of the next religion is pretty much beside the point.

You make a good point.

The thing about Gnostic Christians is that we know that all religions are based on myths and we just know that those myths can be internalized to activate the pineal gland and open the third or single eye.

If you have a spiritual itch to scratch, although it sounds like you do not, bring whatever you want to believe to it and seek your God within.

If you have no spiritual itch to scratch, no problem. We likely share the same morals as I dislike the Christian ones.

Meditation and seeking the higher man within you, you can still do even if an atheist and that is all I recommend.

You think it woo but it worked for me and there is no woo involved just meditation.

Gnostic Christians believe that there is nothing greater than man and that God is to serve us and not us him.

Regards
DL
 

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The only moral version of Christianity is one that is completely metaphor, in which case the details of the story become irrelevant to truth as the metaphors can be replaced with any other metaphorical model from any mythology with no moral qualms. If the story of Jesus represents personal transcendence, then so can the story of a phoenix rising from ashes or any other resurrection myth.

Had Gnostic Christianity won out in the competitive selection process, it would still likely exist today as just as destructive a force of divisiveness and ignorance as the current versions. All you need is a handful of ideological teachers and mouthpieces preaching any part of the story as literal and/or forwarding the story as superior to other myths and belief systems, that these particular symbols and stories actually are the truth and not just another image of the search for truth.

Do you go to a restaurant and eat the menu because it shows symbols representing food? If not, then why consume a belief system of symbols as if the symbols are what they represent? That is poisonous ideology in a nutshell.
 

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Why yes, I have. The Gnostics were the only ones to really have a good answer to the Problem of Evil.

The fact that such a reasonable group of Christians were wiped out through violence is a salutory lesson on how the cult mentality works.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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The only moral version of Christianity is one that is completely metaphor, in which case the details of the story become irrelevant to truth as the metaphors can be replaced with any other metaphorical model from any mythology with no moral qualms. If the story of Jesus represents personal transcendence, then so can the story of a phoenix rising from ashes or any other resurrection myth.

Had Gnostic Christianity won out in the competitive selection process, it would still likely exist today as just as destructive a force of divisiveness and ignorance as the current versions. All you need is a handful of ideological teachers and mouthpieces preaching any part of the story as literal and/or forwarding the story as superior to other myths and belief systems, that these particular symbols and stories actually are the truth and not just another image of the search for truth.

Do you go to a restaurant and eat the menu because it shows symbols representing food? If not, then why consume a belief system of symbols as if the symbols are what they represent? That is poisonous ideology in a nutshell.

I will not try to predict what Gnostic Christianity would be if Christians had not almost destroyed all of it's scriptures but I like it for it's morality and Universalism.

It just happens that it is easier for our minds to absorb symbols and use them internally for enlightenment than to try to use real life characters. Real life is in the left hemisphere of the brain and it is the right side that needs the stimulation.

Constantine likely had us killed off due to the fact that we gave women the equality they should never have lost. That an the Christian sheep were just that. Sheep.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Why yes, I have. The Gnostics were the only ones to really have a good answer to the Problem of Evil.

The fact that such a reasonable group of Christians were wiped out through violence is a salutory lesson on how the cult mentality works.

I hear you and blame Constantine.

Can I ask you to expand on the Gnostic Christian explanation for evil as you know it?

Do you mean our invention of the demiurge?

Regards
DL
 

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The only moral version of Christianity is one that is completely metaphor, in which case the details of the story become irrelevant to truth as the metaphors can be replaced with any other metaphorical model from any mythology with no moral qualms. If the story of Jesus represents personal transcendence, then so can the story of a phoenix rising from ashes or any other resurrection myth.

Had Gnostic Christianity won out in the competitive selection process, it would still likely exist today as just as destructive a force of divisiveness and ignorance as the current versions. All you need is a handful of ideological teachers and mouthpieces preaching any part of the story as literal and/or forwarding the story as superior to other myths and belief systems, that these particular symbols and stories actually are the truth and not just another image of the search for truth.

Do you go to a restaurant and eat the menu because it shows symbols representing food? If not, then why consume a belief system of symbols as if the symbols are what they represent? That is poisonous ideology in a nutshell.

I will not try to predict what Gnostic Christianity would be if Christians had not almost destroyed all of it's scriptures but I like it for it's morality and Universalism.
Why not? You might find it a useful exercise to question why any belief system might morph into zealotry. At the very least, such an exercise could reveal what underlying assumptions you might be accepting without question.

It just happens that it is easier for our minds to absorb symbols and use them internally for enlightenment than to try to use real life characters.
True, I agree that low cognitive effort contributes to our inability as a species to rise above ideological disease.

Real life is in the left hemisphere of the brain and it is the right side that needs the stimulation.
Sounds like cognitive behavioral science would be a more useful belief system for you. I mean, if you must choose one above all others...

Constantine likely had us killed off due to the fact that we gave women the equality they should never have lost. That an the Christian sheep were just that. Sheep.

So you are willing, after all, to examine what might have been...

In my view, if you can't list at least a dozen schools of thought, philosophies, ideologies, views, belief systems, etc., as influencing your own, then you're probably a fanatic waiting to happen. I mean, you're clearly a thoughtful, humane person and you've picked a belief system that you think best reflects and inspires that in you. That's admirable, but it's still one system you're forwarding. If you truly recognize that the answers are in you and not in any symbols, no matter how nice, then you don't need to place any one story above all others. You certainly don't need to encourage that in others. If you do, then your personal transcendence has limited value for anyone else, Bishop.
 

Sarpedon

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They are the only ones to have a convincing explanation of how there could be an all good god and an evil world. By positing that creation was an involuntary act, hijacked by an imperfect lesser being, Gnosticism avoids the inevitable conclusion that God is Evil that all other monotheistic sects fall into (yet vigorously deny)

The fact that gnosticism was destroyed by violence shows that even plausible seeming religions aren't necessarily true. Of course, religious people have all kinds of excuses for the Problem of Losing (tm), but having your religion wiped out remains a fairly convincing argument that your god isn't real.
 

Angry Floof

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They are the only ones to have a convincing explanation of how there could be an all good god and an evil world. By positing that creation was an involuntary act, hijacked by an imperfect lesser being, Gnosticism avoids the inevitable conclusion that God is Evil that all other monotheistic sects fall into (yet vigorously deny)

The fact that gnosticism was destroyed by violence shows that even plausible seeming religions aren't necessarily true. Of course, religious people have all kinds of excuses for the Problem of Losing (tm), but having your religion wiped out remains a fairly convincing argument that your god isn't real.
Or that it could be true (or truer than others) but still not be useful to the peace and well being of humanity.

As far as I can tell, Socrates' simple questioning method is the only useful ideology. Anything that claims to be the answer is just another story distracting us from looking further.
 

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@Gnostic Christian Bishop, do you have a definition of God, and is the story of Jesus myth in your opinion...?
 

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If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?
No, i do not.
What i see in your post is marketing. You're claiming your product is more palatable to modern morality.
But while i may agree with the bullet points of your morality, it's still based on a great big assumption i find hard to swallow. So there's no great advantage to one system over another, if i don't share that assumption. To join with or approve of a religion, i'd have to have some reason to think they're right, not just easier to swallow.

Don't take this wrong, but glossier, longer-lasting lipstick on the pig doesn't make it any more fun to kiss.
 

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What happened to the Gnostic Christians of old was a travesty, however the fact that your woo is very different from the woo of mainstream Christianity doesn't really change the fact that it's woo. It's all just a pile of ad hoc fallacies and argument from ignorance fallacies. Whether the fallacies in question are more imaginative or more appealing than the fallacies of the next religion is pretty much beside the point.

You make a good point.

The thing about Gnostic Christians is that we know that all religions are based on myths and we just know that those myths can be internalized to activate the pineal gland and open the third or single eye.

If you have a spiritual itch to scratch, although it sounds like you do not, bring whatever you want to believe to it and seek your God within.

If you have no spiritual itch to scratch, no problem. We likely share the same morals as I dislike the Christian ones.

Meditation and seeking the higher man within you, you can still do even if an atheist and that is all I recommend.

You think it woo but it worked for me and there is no woo involved just meditation.

Gnostic Christians believe that there is nothing greater than man and that God is to serve us and not us him.

Regards
DL

Meditation involves nothing but internal observation. If it helps calm you down or whatever, then great, but no truth arrived at by meditation can ever be proved to anyone other than yourself, which makes discoveries derived from meditation necessarily useless knowledge-wise.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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The only moral version of Christianity is one that is completely metaphor, in which case the details of the story become irrelevant to truth as the metaphors can be replaced with any other metaphorical model from any mythology with no moral qualms. If the story of Jesus represents personal transcendence, then so can the story of a phoenix rising from ashes or any other resurrection myth.

Had Gnostic Christianity won out in the competitive selection process, it would still likely exist today as just as destructive a force of divisiveness and ignorance as the current versions. All you need is a handful of ideological teachers and mouthpieces preaching any part of the story as literal and/or forwarding the story as superior to other myths and belief systems, that these particular symbols and stories actually are the truth and not just another image of the search for truth.

Do you go to a restaurant and eat the menu because it shows symbols representing food? If not, then why consume a belief system of symbols as if the symbols are what they represent? That is poisonous ideology in a nutshell.

I will not try to predict what Gnostic Christianity would be if Christians had not almost destroyed all of it's scriptures but I like it for it's morality and Universalism.
Why not? You might find it a useful exercise to question why any belief system might morph into zealotry. At the very least, such an exercise could reveal what underlying assumptions you might be accepting without question.

It just happens that it is easier for our minds to absorb symbols and use them internally for enlightenment than to try to use real life characters.
True, I agree that low cognitive effort contributes to our inability as a species to rise above ideological disease.

Real life is in the left hemisphere of the brain and it is the right side that needs the stimulation.
Sounds like cognitive behavioral science would be a more useful belief system for you. I mean, if you must choose one above all others...

Constantine likely had us killed off due to the fact that we gave women the equality they should never have lost. That an the Christian sheep were just that. Sheep.

So you are willing, after all, to examine what might have been...

In my view, if you can't list at least a dozen schools of thought, philosophies, ideologies, views, belief systems, etc., as influencing your own, then you're probably a fanatic waiting to happen. I mean, you're clearly a thoughtful, humane person and you've picked a belief system that you think best reflects and inspires that in you. That's admirable, but it's still one system you're forwarding. If you truly recognize that the answers are in you and not in any symbols, no matter how nice, then you don't need to place any one story above all others. You certainly don't need to encourage that in others. If you do, then your personal transcendence has limited value for anyone else, Bishop.

I do not mind commenting on a historical event like when or why we were killed. That is quite different from making up a scenario where we were the winners.

As a Gnostic Christian, I am aware that all answers for me are within me. When I name God, I am, I mean me. I am where the buck stops. If you can do the same, that is great and your God is allowed to be a set of rules or laws. That is all that left brain thinkers can have. That is all I had or needed till my right side kicked in and enlightenment hit me.

We are likely close morally and if you have no spiritual itch to scratch, and do not seek a higher ideal, no sweat. You are not condemned by Gnostic Christianity the way you are with most of the other Abrahamic cults. I hope you do seek higher laws for us because we need them be they come from a religion or as will most likely happen, from a non-believing source. Those laws as you know are less draconian and more designed for humans than absentee Gods.

Be I am and follow your heart. --- or not and follow someone else's if they differ. Your choice.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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They are the only ones to have a convincing explanation of how there could be an all good god and an evil world. By positing that creation was an involuntary act, hijacked by an imperfect lesser being, Gnosticism avoids the inevitable conclusion that God is Evil that all other monotheistic sects fall into (yet vigorously deny)

The fact that gnosticism was destroyed by violence shows that even plausible seeming religions aren't necessarily true. Of course, religious people have all kinds of excuses for the Problem of Losing (tm), but having your religion wiped out remains a fairly convincing argument that your god isn't real.

Absolutely. And I see religions as political lackeys. Likely because I see Rome as creating wimpy Jesus as their way of killing off the freedom fighting spirit in the ancient Jewish nation. The Jewish Jesus is much closer to the Gnostic Christian Jesus than Rome's invented boot licking Jesus. The Noble Lie has never been repealed and authorities continue to dumb us down.

Gnostic Christians believe that all religions and Gods should be thought of as myths until you suffer apotheosis. Only then should any reality be given to anything of the unseen world.

As to good and evil. Yes our myths explain it better than Christianity.

Todays Gnostic Christian may use his old myth to activate his pineal gland but when thinking of real evil in our real world, then I hope that most of us will teach how it is evolution that makes evil rear it's ugly head.

You cooperate and mostly produce good. When you compete as we must all do to survive, you create a victim and he is the one who will feel that evil has come his way because if he has a string of loses, he will go extinct. In this sense, we cannot help but do evil. That is likely why the scribes had Adams sin being passed down. Christianity just called that gift a curse out of ancient ignorance of evolution.

Regards
DL
 

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Well, why do you confuse the situation by using the word God then? It's a loaded term which only obfuscates what you're saying when you say it in a different context than other people are hearing it. If you mean yourself, why not just say "me". Why bring the context of a deity into a discussion which has no deities involved in it?
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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@Gnostic Christian Bishop, do you have a definition of God, and is the story of Jesus myth in your opinion...?

Myth.

I, like Joseph Campbell, see Jesus as a one of the Heroes of 1,000 faces. I do not know if a Jesus ever existed as described but doubt. I do think there may have been a Jewish Rabbi called Jesus but he was just a man. Not a God. He preached to seek God. If he had claimed to be God he would not have said to seek what was right in front of the seeker.

As to how to best describe God to you atheists, I would ask that you define God as just the best set of rules and laws to live by. You atheists do not personify, which, FMPOV, inhibits your mental growth, --- but that is pure opinion and I admit I could be quite wrong in this --- psychobabble --- which I do not like to do.

I seek God via traditional religions but focus on the morality of rules and laws. Those are the deeds and works all of us must do to find whatever or whoever we want to see as the best rules for life.

Regards
DL
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.


If a god existed that had unlimited power, knowledge and desire then he would also define what evil is and not humans.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?
No, i do not.
What i see in your post is marketing. You're claiming your product is more palatable to modern morality.
But while i may agree with the bullet points of your morality, it's still based on a great big assumption i find hard to swallow. So there's no great advantage to one system over another, if i don't share that assumption. To join with or approve of a religion, i'd have to have some reason to think they're right, not just easier to swallow.

Don't take this wrong, but glossier, longer-lasting lipstick on the pig doesn't make it any more fun to kiss.

You kiss pigs!
Just kidding.

No religion is right except to those in it.

Gnostic Christian are no more right than the next guy. The trick and what I sell is to internalize whatever belief you hold and by doing so you will see the Universality of all religions. Religions all have the same dish but just served in a variety of ways. In this, they match secular systems and governments who also all serve the same dish but in different ways.

If you have read a bit of sociology then you will know that most normal people are not all that different from a moral standpoint. This clip shows this.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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What happened to the Gnostic Christians of old was a travesty, however the fact that your woo is very different from the woo of mainstream Christianity doesn't really change the fact that it's woo. It's all just a pile of ad hoc fallacies and argument from ignorance fallacies. Whether the fallacies in question are more imaginative or more appealing than the fallacies of the next religion is pretty much beside the point.

You make a good point.

The thing about Gnostic Christians is that we know that all religions are based on myths and we just know that those myths can be internalized to activate the pineal gland and open the third or single eye.

If you have a spiritual itch to scratch, although it sounds like you do not, bring whatever you want to believe to it and seek your God within.

If you have no spiritual itch to scratch, no problem. We likely share the same morals as I dislike the Christian ones.

Meditation and seeking the higher man within you, you can still do even if an atheist and that is all I recommend.

You think it woo but it worked for me and there is no woo involved just meditation.

Gnostic Christians believe that there is nothing greater than man and that God is to serve us and not us him.

Regards
DL

Meditation involves nothing but internal observation. If it helps calm you down or whatever, then great, but no truth arrived at by meditation can ever be proved to anyone other than yourself, which makes discoveries derived from meditation necessarily useless knowledge-wise.

Not to you.

https://www.ted.com/talks/iain_mcgilchrist_the_divided_brain

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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To answer the OP's question, no.

Be you a believer or non-believer, it is in everyone's best interest to have the best moral religions out there and to speak out against the immoral ones.

All should then know a bit of Gnostic Christian theology because when it comes to equality, we are a cut above what Christianity and Islam now offer. We do not discriminate against half the world just because they do not have dicks.

All I offer is another tool in the atheist and believer tool kit.

If someone is not interested in the best morals that he can follow, religious or political, then he is not a worthy person and is a waste of good air.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Well, why do you confuse the situation by using the word God then? It's a loaded term which only obfuscates what you're saying when you say it in a different context than other people are hearing it. If you mean yourself, why not just say "me". Why bring the context of a deity into a discussion which has no deities involved in it?

But it does. It is just badly defined and this is a way of bringing it out as you have just done.

Note above how I have been able to speak of my definition of the word God, what, twice already.

That is also why I call what I found through apotheosis the Godhead. Just to indicate that it is different from God.

Regards
DL
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.

Are you talking of Theistic Evolution?

If so, getting rid of evil is the last thing we want to do. It is tied to our evolution and to take competition out of our equation would likely lead to our extinction.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.


If a god existed that had unlimited power, knowledge and desire then he would also define what evil is and not humans.

True and the absentee Gods we have on the menu just aren't showing up.

Other than the God I am that is and he does not have the ear of the masses. Without that, no God will ever be acknowledged.

Regards
DL
 

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No religion is right except to those in it.
So, religion is like UFOs, conspiracies, Bigfoot and White Supremacy. The evidence makes sense if you're already a member. Short of that, though, theres no compelling reason to join...
Gnostic Christian are no more right than the next guy. The trick and what I sell is to internalize whatever belief you hold and by doing so you will see the Universality of all religions.
i already see one universal quality of all religions, thus i'm an atheist.
If you have read a bit of sociology then you will know that most normal people are not all that different from a moral standpoint.
And thus, morals are a manmade product, so no deities are needed, either to guide our efforts or to approve of them.
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.


If a god existed that had unlimited power, knowledge and desire then he would also define what evil is and not humans.

True and the absentee Gods we have on the menu just aren't showing up.

Other than the God I am that is and he does not have the ear of the masses. Without that, no God will ever be acknowledged.


Regards
DL

I don't understand the sentences I bolded. Are claiming to be a god? Gods are acknowledged whether they actually exist or exist only in the minds of the acknowledgers don't they?

Could you elaborate more? I think I'm missing your point.
 

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Gnostic Christian Bishop;31511 said:
Be you a believer or non-believer, it is in everyone's best interest to have the best moral religions out there and to speak out against the immoral ones.
No it isn't.
Religions do not offer moral guidance, they offer a menu. They list good and bad actions, without providing the knowledge base necessary to develop our own morals. Thus the whole anti-gay-rights movement, because no one ever explained to Christains WHY gay is bad, under what circumstances, and does it apply forever or only for a given society.

What we need to do is stop pretending gods sponsor any of our morality and come up with the best moral code we can, for ourselves, based on our knowledge.
It's what people do, anyway, using their real morality to cherry pick biblical morals, but let's cut out the middle man.
 

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Well, why do you confuse the situation by using the word God then? It's a loaded term which only obfuscates what you're saying when you say it in a different context than other people are hearing it. If you mean yourself, why not just say "me". Why bring the context of a deity into a discussion which has no deities involved in it?

But it does. It is just badly defined and this is a way of bringing it out as you have just done.

Note above how I have been able to speak of my definition of the word God, what, twice already.

That is also why I call what I found through apotheosis the Godhead. Just to indicate that it is different from God.

Regards
DL

Not just this conversation, but conversations in general. It's poor grammar to use the Capital-G God to refer to non-god concepts and it has no value beyond introducing unnecessary confusion. If you want to talk about something other than a god, don't cram your definition onto a pre-existing term which already means something radically different. Make up your own term or assign your definition to a different term which might be remotely related to what you're talking about. If Belgians* want to express their philosophy, they should do it in a way that avoids obfuscation and confusion.

* I'm defining "Belgians" as "Gnostic Christians" here for no reason other than to make my point more confusing.
 

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No religion is right except to those in it.

If a religion is only right to the people who believe in it, then it isn't right to begin with; the *actual* truth isn't a matter of opinion. 1+1=2 regardless of whether or not you personally believe that math doesn't work that way. A religion that can only peddle subjective truth isn't worth following.

Gnostic Christian are no more right than the next guy. The trick and what I sell is to internalize whatever belief you hold and by doing so you will see the Universality of all religions. Religions all have the same dish but just served in a variety of ways. In this, they match secular systems and governments who also all serve the same dish but in different ways.

Religions DON'T all have the same dish, however. That's a gross oversimplification that can only persist when one is ignorant of the wide range of religious beliefs; which often outright contradict each other. You can't say that all religions serve the same dish when one religion preaches that god created the world in six days and you need to worship him or suffer for all eternity while another claims that life is an eternal wheel of torment, there is no god, and only through achieving a state of non-existence can you transcend suffering. The idea that 'all religions are just paths that lead to the same thing' is just feel-good nonsense unsupported by reality.
 

dystopian

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Be you a believer or non-believer, it is in everyone's best interest to have the best moral religions out there and to speak out against the immoral ones.

No; it's in our interests to have *no* religions at all. Religions are just cults that have become widespread enough; mixing faith (the act of believing in things without evidence) with a system of rules. The world needs LESS faith; not more: people ought to base their beliefs on facts, not makebelief. And as for rules, we already have those; they're called laws. Just because one cult is more moral than another doesn't mean it's any less dangerous in the way that it lets people believe shit they have no good reason to believe.



All should then know a bit of Gnostic Christian theology because when it comes to equality, we are a cut above what Christianity and Islam now offer. We do not discriminate against half the world just because they do not have dicks.

Not discriminating against people doesn't afford you any special rights; it just means you're not an asshole on that count. Not being an asshole doesn't make you special.

If someone is not interested in the best morals that he can follow, religious or political, then he is not a worthy person and is a waste of good air.

What a completely immoral thing to say.
 

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I haven't been through all this thread yet, but stop it with the left brain/right brain dichotomy. That has no analog in current neurological models and is a piece of woo I wish would just die. :realitycheck:

I thought we had a beating the dead horse smiley? Fuck it, I used a reality check.
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.


If a god existed that had unlimited power, knowledge and desire then he would also define what evil is and not humans.

That's not a solution to the problem of evil, that's simply redefining evil. Nonetheless, if any god existed who had unlimited power, unlimited knowledge and unlimited desire to eliminate x, then there would be no x, whatever x is. The existence of x in any amount anywhere would demonstrate that either that god lacked the power to get rid of it, lacked the knowledge that it existed or was not totally committed to the desire to eliminate x.
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.

Are you talking of Theistic Evolution?

If so, getting rid of evil is the last thing we want to do. It is tied to our evolution and to take competition out of our equation would likely lead to our extinction.

Regards
DL

No I was simply referring to Sarpedon's earlier statement that Gnostic Christianity were "the only ones that had a really good answer to the problem of evil".

A religion that has no actual god is not relevant to the problem of evil. Thousands of gods have been invented over the centuries by various cultures that are not tri-omni, and therefore they also are not relevant to the problem of evil. It is only when a religion insists upon worshiping a monotheistic god who is all powerful, all knowing and omni-benevolent that the problem of evil becomes relevant.
 

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So, religion is like UFOs, conspiracies, Bigfoot and White Supremacy. The evidence makes sense if you're already a member. Short of that, though, theres no compelling reason to join...
Gnostic Christian are no more right than the next guy. The trick and what I sell is to internalize whatever belief you hold and by doing so you will see the Universality of all religions.
i already see one universal quality of all religions, thus i'm an atheist.
If you have read a bit of sociology then you will know that most normal people are not all that different from a moral standpoint.
And thus, morals are a manmade product, so no deities are needed, either to guide our efforts or to approve of them.

Correct.

How can a God who could not have developed morals ever lead a people who had to develop morals to live with each other?
That is why the first few commandments are all about his self-centered ego.

That is why many think God amoral or FMPOV, immoral.

Regards
DL
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.


If a god existed that had unlimited power, knowledge and desire then he would also define what evil is and not humans.

True and the absentee Gods we have on the menu just aren't showing up.

Other than the God I am that is and he does not have the ear of the masses. Without that, no God will ever be acknowledged.


Regards
DL

I don't understand the sentences I bolded. Are claiming to be a god? Gods are acknowledged whether they actually exist or exist only in the minds of the acknowledgers don't they?

Could you elaborate more? I think I'm missing your point.


John 10; 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

---------------------------------
Psalm 82 King James Version (KJV)

82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


The way I understand all these passages plus what is in this link, ----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Is that the Jews and Jesus lived in a world, sort of, where all are lower case gods. Somewhat like Gnostic Christians and our belief that we all have a spark of God within us.

From this assembly of gods, a God would have been elected. Jews always had men speaking in God's name and their power came from all the other gods.

At present new have many gods but not God.

If you read revelation, only at times of great stress or trouble do the masses elect themselves a God. So to speak.

A poor analogy would be how people thought of the U.S on D day. the God of gods or in political jargon, the King of kings had arrived.

I can mix political philosophy and religious theology metaphors, as above so below, because to me, it is all the same unless one wants to get stuck in semantics. I think it keeps thoughts fluid.

I am not that familiar with your U. S. politics. Can your Senators acclaim a president?

That is somewhat the way I see the old Jewish customs and their thinking about their God.
 

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Gnostic Christian Bishop;31511 said:
Be you a believer or non-believer, it is in everyone's best interest to have the best moral religions out there and to speak out against the immoral ones.
No it isn't.
Religions do not offer moral guidance, they offer a menu. They list good and bad actions, without providing the knowledge base necessary to develop our own morals. Thus the whole anti-gay-rights movement, because no one ever explained to Christains WHY gay is bad, under what circumstances, and does it apply forever or only for a given society.

What we need to do is stop pretending gods sponsor any of our morality and come up with the best moral code we can, for ourselves, based on our knowledge.
It's what people do, anyway, using their real morality to cherry pick biblical morals, but let's cut out the middle man.

So you want someone from outside Christianity to tell them why being gay is not bad but you do not support a theology that will do just that from inside religions. Too bad.

Regards
DL
 

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If a religion is only right to the people who believe in it, then it isn't right to begin with; the *actual* truth isn't a matter of opinion. 1+1=2 regardless of whether or not you personally believe that math doesn't work that way. A religion that can only peddle subjective truth isn't worth following.

Gnostic Christian are no more right than the next guy. The trick and what I sell is to internalize whatever belief you hold and by doing so you will see the Universality of all religions. Religions all have the same dish but just served in a variety of ways. In this, they match secular systems and governments who also all serve the same dish but in different ways.

Religions DON'T all have the same dish, however. That's a gross oversimplification that can only persist when one is ignorant of the wide range of religious beliefs; which often outright contradict each other. You can't say that all religions serve the same dish when one religion preaches that god created the world in six days and you need to worship him or suffer for all eternity while another claims that life is an eternal wheel of torment, there is no god, and only through achieving a state of non-existence can you transcend suffering. The idea that 'all religions are just paths that lead to the same thing' is just feel-good nonsense unsupported by reality.

What makes you think that religions have anything to do with truth?

Does Christianity, for instance preach truth or do they preach obedience?

Do they preach of theosis or apotheosis or to follow the church?

Churches have institutionalized lying so to say they seek truth is rather odd. Governments invented religion for social manipulation and control. Not for anything resembling truth.

God was a liar from the very beginning.

Regards
DL
 

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No; it's in our interests to have *no* religions at all. Religions are just cults that have become widespread enough; mixing faith (the act of believing in things without evidence) with a system of rules. The world needs LESS faith; not more: people ought to base their beliefs on facts, not makebelief. And as for rules, we already have those; they're called laws. Just because one cult is more moral than another doesn't mean it's any less dangerous in the way that it lets people believe shit they have no good reason to believe.



All should then know a bit of Gnostic Christian theology because when it comes to equality, we are a cut above what Christianity and Islam now offer. We do not discriminate against half the world just because they do not have dicks.

Not discriminating against people doesn't afford you any special rights; it just means you're not an asshole on that count. Not being an asshole doesn't make you special.

If someone is not interested in the best morals that he can follow, religious or political, then he is not a worthy person and is a waste of good air.

What a completely immoral thing to say.

I agree that religions should base their theologies on facts. Gnosis means knowledge. When coined that meant facts. Gnostic Christians deal in facts and our theology shows it.

That is why we do not really use faith as some do. We do not have faith. We have hope. Faith leads to idol worship while hope enhances seeking God.

Regards
DL
 

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I haven't been through all this thread yet, but stop it with the left brain/right brain dichotomy. That has no analog in current neurological models and is a piece of woo I wish would just die. :realitycheck:

I thought we had a beating the dead horse smiley? Fuck it, I used a reality check.

Rather hard not to talk about the brain when all that I speak of happens in it.

Regards
DL
 

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Pardon the interruption, but that's not a solution to the problem of evil. That's simply positing a god to whom the problem of evil doesn't apply. There are thousands of such gods in mythology. Any god who lacks the ability to eliminate all evil is not amenable to the POE. Any god who lacks the knowledge of the existence of evil is also excused. Any god who lacks the absolute, unabated desire to eliminate all evil gets a pass.

But a god who is unlimited in power, unlimited in knowledge and unlimited in desire to eliminate evil cannot exist in the same universe where evil exists. There is no scenario whereby such a god would not eliminate evil.

Are you talking of Theistic Evolution?

If so, getting rid of evil is the last thing we want to do. It is tied to our evolution and to take competition out of our equation would likely lead to our extinction.

Regards
DL

No I was simply referring to Sarpedon's earlier statement that Gnostic Christianity were "the only ones that had a really good answer to the problem of evil".

A religion that has no actual god is not relevant to the problem of evil. Thousands of gods have been invented over the centuries by various cultures that are not tri-omni, and therefore they also are not relevant to the problem of evil. It is only when a religion insists upon worshiping a monotheistic god who is all powerful, all knowing and omni-benevolent that the problem of evil becomes relevant.

I think I see where you are at.

No argument.

Regards
DL
 

dystopian

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What makes you think that religions have anything to do with truth?

What makes you think that *I'm* claiming that? What part of my post could possibly give you that obviously false impression? I'm not claiming any such thing of course; religions however, *are*.

God was a liar from the very beginning.

You're not doing a very good job on convincing me of your particular brand of insanity. They may be full of shit, but at least regular christians don't try to convince me by acknowledging that they're full of shit but 'hey, it's cool cause it lets them see how *everyone* is full of shit, yo. We can all be full of shit together on the path to enlightenment."

Yeah, no thanks. If I wanted to buy into some weak post-modernist interpretation of an ancient beliefsystem; I wouldn't be here on a *skeptics* forum.
 

dystopian

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I haven't been through all this thread yet, but stop it with the left brain/right brain dichotomy. That has no analog in current neurological models and is a piece of woo I wish would just die. :realitycheck:

I thought we had a beating the dead horse smiley? Fuck it, I used a reality check.

Rather hard not to talk about the brain when all that I speak of happens in it.

Regards
DL

What Braces_for_impact means is that the idea that there is no left/right side divide in the brain. The popular idea that one side of the brain deals with creativity and the other with reason is a demonstrable false idea that hasn't been taken serious by science for some time but which nonetheless persists; particularly among people with books to sell on the subject.

So... if you're going to talk about the brain because all you speak of 'happens within it'; then you better damn well make sure you actually know what the hell you're talking about instead of just linking to a TED talk (I don't think many of us think that highly of TED as a source of people with authority anymore, not with their current standards of quality) without any actual explanation.
 

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So you want someone from outside Christianity to tell them
Swing and a miss. I would never presume to rewrite Christainity's scripture. Not from the outside, no.
I just think that their stances on gays and women and a number of social traits, have made themselves fairly irrelevant to actual life.
but you do not support a theology that will do just that from inside religions.
I do not support using any religion to promulgate morality. No matter that it's one of two religions or inside of the one and only religion, it adds an unnecessary fiction to the development and support of that moral code.
Even if i agree with the moral code, those who are parts of different religions will tend to reject it because it's not sponsored by their gods.
Those without a religion will tend to reject it for an unnecessary woo component.
 

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What makes you think that *I'm* claiming that? What part of my post could possibly give you that obviously false impression? I'm not claiming any such thing of course; religions however, *are*.

.

"A religion that can only peddle subjective truth isn't worth following."

This is what prompted my remark.

Regards
DL
 

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Swing and a miss. I would never presume to rewrite Christainity's scripture. Not from the outside, no.
I just think that their stances on gays and women and a number of social traits, have made themselves fairly irrelevant to actual life.
but you do not support a theology that will do just that from inside religions.
I do not support using any religion to promulgate morality. No matter that it's one of two religions or inside of the one and only religion, it adds an unnecessary fiction to the development and support of that moral code.
Even if i agree with the moral code, those who are parts of different religions will tend to reject it because it's not sponsored by their gods.


Correct and questioning them, by believers or non-believers, allows others to see whether that religion is taking a good moral position or not.

Lets keep on doing so where required.

If those here are not also elsewhere fighting poor moral beliefs that effect us all in terms of the law of the land, then they are not moral men as moral men recognize their social conscience and their duty to humanity and their own families.

A good example is the equality of women and gays. If those here do not fight for that then they do not care if their own wives and female children are considered second class citizens.

Regards
DL
 

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Correct and questioning them, by believers or non-believers, allows others to see whether that religion is taking a good moral position or not.

Lets keep on doing so where required.
But it's not required.
Judging religions by their moral codes does not help us identify which religion has the right take on the gods that exist. For that, we'd need to have independent access to the gods.
If those here are not also elsewhere fighting poor moral beliefs that effect us all in terms of the law of the land, then they are not moral men as moral men recognize their social conscience and their duty to humanity and their own families.
Grand.
But I don't oppose the Ten Commandments being on courthouse steps because i dislike the morality. I oppose that because it's unconstitutional.
Others can live by the moral code, but they cannot expect me to live by their moral code, jus tbecause their god says its a good code.
A good example is the equality of women and gays. If those here do not fight for that then they do not care if their own wives and female children are considered second class citizens.
Kind of a sweeping generalization and a pompous judgment on people you've never met, Bishop.
 
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