How best to foster a culture of consent

[ruby sparks]

PARENTS SHOULD ASK THEIR BABY'S PERMISSION BEFORE CHANGING DIRTY NAPPY, SEXUALITY EXPERT SAYS
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-sexuality-expert-deanne-carson-a8345581.html

I offer the above as a way of starting a conversation on the general topic as stated in the OP title.

To me, the arguably radical suggestion by Deanne Carson, as reported in that article, while well-meaning (and in some ways appealing to me) may not be entirely pragmatic and as such may be easy to question. Some may disagree and think it a wholly excellent idea.

In any case, what other measures, whether individual/bottom up or collective/top down (including legislation in the final case) would posters recommend or like to see adopted and/or popularised?

Assuming that everyone agrees that consent is an important issue.

Perhaps some think it is overstated (or a 'Social Justice Warrior' concern, with the pejoratives that sometimes seem to go along with that enterprise these days). Can seeking consent go too far? I should not be surprised, most things can. That said, I think we could do with more of it, by and large.

Note that the OP is about consent in general, though of course there will be specific areas (such as consent to sex) which are more part of the current social/public zeitgeist than others.

 

[ronburgundy]

Young kids frequently say "no" to any request even when it goes against their own welfare and interests. There is moral requirement for parents to protect their kids welfare (which includes changing dirty diapers) regardless of whether the kid wants these actions done. So, asking for "consent" in such situations just sets up a situation where an explicit refusal of consent is and should be ignored and the action is done anyway. That doesn't seem like a good recipe for instilling a respect for consent later in life. Thus, at most, consent should only be asked if the action is not important in the first place and thus there is no problem with not doing it, if the kid objects.

 

[skepticalbip]

She needs to take some more childhood development classes. A child of one is still in the "Sensorimotor Stage" of development so asking for permission to change a diaper would mean nothing to the child even though it may make the person asking feel like a "better person" for asking. Then what does she do when the child is in the "terrible twos" and says NO to everything - let the child wallow in its own poo because the kid expressly told her no?

 

[steve_bank]

Consent is important.
But is also part genetic. We are programed to mate.

Culturally the man seduces and the woman puts of a fight but in the end gives in. It is in movies going back to the start of Hollywood. I grew up watching Shaun Connery as James Bond. A powerful male image in my generation.

There is an infamous Connery interview worth Barbara Walters where he says a man should physically displace his wife if she gets 'out of hand', meaning too independent and does not comply.

 

[J842P]

Consent and the public discussion surrounding it is important.

What that person said about babies is stupid. Hopefully, stupid shit like that won't dominate the discussion. Because I think it does a disservice.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Oh sure, just shove his entire body through a vagina without so much as an “if you please”, but when he’s sitting there waiting while covered in shit, all of a sudden you should stop and leave him as is until after a conversation?

It seems that manners should be put on a back burner while someone is covered in shit.

 

[ruby sparks]

Oh sure, just shove his entire body through a vagina without so much as an “if you please”, but when he’s sitting there waiting while covered in shit, all of a sudden you should stop and leave him as is until after a conversation?

It seems that manners should be put on a back burner while someone is covered in shit.

You raise an excellent, relevant and important, nay fundamental point about consent. Pyramidhead would be especially interested.

The Case for Not Being Born
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born

“While good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place”

On a more whimsical note, I am not sure of the ethics of not feeding babies (so that there would be no dirty nappies). It may be that in a given situation of it being too late (eg them already being born, perhaps by accident) that a case could be made for it in terms of lesser long term harm, but there are probably more humane alternatives, such as smothering, or for the squeamish, cowardly or those with pillow aversion issues the lesser option of just not providing nappies, which would at least neatly solve the problem from a pedantic perspective. As for shoving entire bodies through vaginas, point taken, but I hear that there's a variety of porn for the adult version of at least attempting something along those lines, and who has the right to oppress or coerce anyone for their informed and most importantly consensual preferences?

 

[fast]

Babies can't give consent, and we don't need their permission, nor is either morally required.

ETA: I'm talking about changing diapers, in case anyone is confused.

ETA: PS, I'm not gonna; figured I'd throw that out there.

 

[southernhybrid]

Hmmm. I doubt that the kooky woman who claims that a mother should ask an infant if he/she wants his/her diaper changed, has ever raised a child. When an infant has a wet or dirty diaper, the infant will ask to have it changed by crying. If the parent doesn't respond quickly, the parent is neglecting his/her parental responsibilities.

Having good role models is important, as children often learn from the examples they are given. Still, there are people who are biologically/genetically programmed to be aggressive, have violent tendencies etc. It's unlikely that good parenting will have much impact on them. But, the idea that a parent needs to ask permission from his/her children to do what responsible parents have to do to keep their children safe, clean and healthy is simply nuts.

Anyway, my own son turned out to be very respectful of other people and seems to be a good parent, from the limited amount of time I've been able to travel to visit him and his family. So, I think my method worked out quite well. His genetic father wasn't the best or worst example, but his step father was an excellent role model for him. Still, he has a personality that is very similar to his grandmother's in some ways. He spent very little time with her due to the distance that separated us. I tend to think he inherited many of his positive personality traits from my mother. I tend to believe that genetics and other biological factors have as much or possibly more influence over individual personality
traits as environmental influences do. So, let's not pretend that how we raise our children is the only factor that influences their development.

 

[DrZoidberg]

PARENTS SHOULD ASK THEIR BABY'S PERMISSION BEFORE CHANGING DIRTY NAPPY, SEXUALITY EXPERT SAYS
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-sexuality-expert-deanne-carson-a8345581.html

I offer the above as a way of starting a conversation on the general topic as stated in the OP title.

To me, the arguably radical suggestion by Deanne Carson, as reported in that article, while well-meaning (and in some ways appealing to me) may not be entirely pragmatic and as such may be easy to question. Some may disagree and think it a wholly excellent idea.

In any case, what other measures, whether individual/bottom up or collective/top down (including legislation in the final case) would posters recommend or like to see adopted and/or popularised?

Assuming that everyone agrees that consent is an important issue.

Perhaps some think it is overstated (or a 'Social Justice Warrior' concern, with the pejoratives that sometimes seem to go along with that enterprise these days). Can seeking consent go too far? I should not be surprised, most things can. That said, I think we could do with more of it, by and large.

Note that the OP is about consent in general, though of course there will be specific areas (such as consent to sex) which are more part of the current social/public zeitgeist than others.

Isn't this instead the golden opportunity to teach kids they should obey their parents?

 

[Toni]

I get the idea. Parents talk to their babies long before the babies can effectively understand language or words. Oh! Here comes Daddy! Who's a snuggle bunny? You're a snuggle bunny! Mommy loves her little baby! It's time for a bath! Should we were our ducky sleepers or the ones with the little giraffe? Where did I put my #@!? keys? People even talk to their babies and even play music for the baby before the baby is born.

No one expects an actual response or for the baby to understand. But by talking to the baby as though the baby does understand, you aren't just building vocabulary but also fostering the idea that language is something that is shared, that it has meaning between the adult and the baby. It builds an intimate bond between parent and child. Many parents have nursery words that they use with their children that are invented words; children, especially twins, often invent words or terms for things that are particular to that child and his/her intimates.

So, when a parent says with excitement: Let's go see Grandpa! It sets up the child for a happy experience that happens to be seeing this person Parent calls Grandpa.

Do I think that parents should 'ask permission' to change their infant's diaper? Not in the sense that the infant is capable of giving a response. But I don't think it's kooky. What's kooky is the responses from people who clearly have not actually paid attention to what Carson is actually saying (comments on link).

Do I think that parents can and do teach their children about consent and privacy of body early on? Yes, they do, whether it is conscious or or deliberate or not. Reacting in horror if a toddler walks into the room where you are changing clothes is definitely teaching the child something. Saying please close the door and wait for me to finish dressing is teaching the child something else. Give Daddy some privacy when he's in the bathroom is teaching the child that people want privacy in the bathroom. Respecting the child telling you that he can do it himself while he's in the bathroom is teaching the child that he is deserving of respect. Telling your child who is running around naked after a bath that it's time to put on pj's when Auntie Jo comes to the door is teaching the child something: that there are limits to who sees your naked bum. Telling your child to not poke you in the bellybutton is telling the child that there are limits to where s/he can touch you and how you will allow touch. Parents showing affection towards one another teaches the child that people who care about each other and love one another like to sit close together and hug or kiss. Forcing a child to kiss or hug a relative or visitor when the child is reluctant for any reason tells the child that their feelings don't matter and should not be done, no matter how much the adult's feelings are hurt. Asking the child to pull up their shirt so you can see where it hurts or to listen to their heart, etc. lets the child know that s/he has some control over their body. Clearly children absorb messages early on, both positive and negative.

 

[Politesse]

Socializing a child is a two-way street. If you start asking early on, it seems to me like a good way to establish healthy habits and boundaries, on both sides of the social exchange. Certainly I do not ever touch my godson's body for any reason without asking his permission first (he is four, not a baby anymore, but I started doing this as soon as he was talking)

 

[Bronzeage]

Oh sure, just shove his entire body through a vagina without so much as an “if you please”, but when he’s sitting there waiting while covered in shit, all of a sudden you should stop and leave him as is until after a conversation?

It seems that manners should be put on a back burner while someone is covered in shit.

Finally, a rational response to the adolescent complaint, "I didn't ask to be born."

"True, but you never asked to have your diaper changed either, but you made it to toilet training without being caked in your own shit. How did that happen?"


As stupid as the proposal in the OP sounds, it has a much more serious application than changing baby diapers. The staff of nursing homes often face this challenge from adults who have lost some of their mental faculties, but are still capable of resisting any efforts to care for them. This goes beyond diaper changes and other hygiene. It's common for a person in this condition to lose the feeling of hunger. They simply feel no desire to eat and fall into malnutrition, along with all the complications. It takes time an patience to encourage a person put the spoon in their mouth. It's easy for a staff worker to take away a full tray and dismiss it by saying, "I can't force him to eat, if he doesn't want to."

This reveals the fallacy of the diaper consent dilemma. When one takes responsibility for the care and protection of another person, they also take the responsibility for consent to beneficial things and failure to do so, is a form of neglect or abuse.

 

[southernhybrid]

N

Well, I'm still not convinced that the woman in the OP isn't a bit over the top, toni Sure, you should talk to your infant, and socialize with your children often and at a young age. But I think many overly anxious parents worry too much about how very simple things and words might impact their children.


Perhaps we've just had very different experiences and that influences how we see this.

 

[steve_bank]

The larger cultural indoctrination has to change. That means music, TV, and movies. Not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Toni]

Oh sure, just shove his entire body through a vagina without so much as an “if you please”, but when he’s sitting there waiting while covered in shit, all of a sudden you should stop and leave him as is until after a conversation?

It seems that manners should be put on a back burner while someone is covered in shit.

Finally, a rational response to the adolescent complaint, "I didn't ask to be born."

"True, but you never asked to have your diaper changed either, but you made it to toilet training without being caked in your own shit. How did that happen?"


As stupid as the proposal in the OP sounds, it has a much more serious application than changing baby diapers. The staff of nursing homes often face this challenge from adults who have lost some of their mental faculties, but are still capable of resisting any efforts to care for them. This goes beyond diaper changes and other hygiene. It's common for a person in this condition to lose the feeling of hunger. They simply feel no desire to eat and fall into malnutrition, along with all the complications. It takes time an patience to encourage a person put the spoon in their mouth. It's easy for a staff worker to take away a full tray and dismiss it by saying, "I can't force him to eat, if he doesn't want to."

This reveals the fallacy of the diaper consent dilemma. When one takes responsibility for the care and protection of another person, they also take the responsibility for consent to beneficial things and failure to do so, is a form of neglect or abuse.

Yes, this is true. But still, with any person who is not capable of recognizing or responding to offers of help or even resists attempts to help, you still ask, if possible, and state as gently and kindly as possible what you are doing and why.

I've spent my share of time in dementia wards and staff do take time to do this. I've done it myself. So do pediatricians and nurses with children. Of course there are times when one cannot: one does not ask permission to cut open clothing to access an areas with a serious wound so that copious bleeding can be stopped. One cannot ask permission of an unconscious person. One cannot expect cooperation from someone who is in extreme pain or who is in an altered mental state, drug/alcohol induced or not. One still does one's best to offer whatever dignity is possible.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, the idea that parents should get consent from babies before getting their nappies changed is arguably a bit daft. In her defence, I think she put the emphasis on the asking rather than on getting consent (though she did say something about waiting for a body language response). Imo, the idea might be a bit kooky.

On the other hand, it's not totally kooky, imo. In practice, especially very early on in baby's life, there won't be any sort of a response. It'll be more about the baby learning 'that it is being asked' and that, to some extent at least (even if not completely) it's response matters. In such a way, I think it is possible for the child to learn something about what consent is about.

Or, look at it another way, how should you go about changing a baby's nappy? What are the alternatives? Is it better, for instance, to lift baby, without saying anything, up off the floor where he or she might be interacting with someone, or another baby, or a toy, or a tv, lay it on its back and not say anything about what you are doing or why? Maybe that is going to the other extreme, but on the whole, I don't see much of a problem with the 'explaining what you are doing' being phrased in a 'respectful, consent-seeking' sort of way.

I think the woman's point is that kids who get sexually molested are often very confused about what is happening and whose fault it is. Perhaps inducing at least the basic idea of bodily integrity at an early age might not be a bad thing. Dunno.

Now, you could turn that on its head and say that if baby learns that his or her nappy will be changed even if they don't want it to be, they will learn the opposite, that their response does not matter, but in practice I doubt it would work out that way. A child can also learn that sometimes, others, especially those they have learned to trust, may do things that are in their best interests, and indeed this can be explained to them even when they are very little. So baby can start to learn about consent, consequences, and perhaps also negotiation.

Just thinking out loud. Not sure where I stand in relation to the suggestion. It could be just harmlessly daft in the final analysis.

 

[Toni]

Yes, the idea that parents should get consent from babies before getting their nappies changed is arguably a bit daft. In her defence, I think she put the emphasis on the asking rather than on getting consent (though she did say something about waiting for a body language response). Imo, the idea might be a bit kooky.

On the other hand, it's not totally kooky, imo. In practice, especially very early on in baby's life, there won't be any sort of a response. It'll be more about the baby learning 'that it is being asked' and that, to some extent at least (even if not completely) it's response matters. In such a way, I think it is possible for the child to learn something about what consent is about.

Or, look at it another way, how should you go about changing a baby's nappy? What are the alternatives? Is it better, for instance, to lift baby, without saying anything, up off the floor where he or she might be interacting with someone, or another baby, or a toy, or a tv, lay it on its back and not say anything about what you are doing or why? Maybe that is going to the other extreme, but on the whole, I don't see much of a problem with the 'explaining what you are doing' being phrased in a 'respectful, consent-seeking' sort of way.

I think the woman's point is that kids who get sexually molested are often very confused about what is happening and whose fault it is. Perhaps inducing at least the basic idea of bodily integrity at an early age might not be a bad thing. Dunno.

Now, you could turn that on its head and say that if baby learns that his or her nappy will be changed even if they don't want it to be, they will learn the opposite, that their response does not matter, but in practice I doubt it would work out that way. A child can also learn that sometimes, others, especially those they have learned to trust, may do things that are in their best interests, and indeed this can be explained to them even when they are very little. So baby can start to learn about consent, consequences, and perhaps also negotiation.

Just thinking out loud. Not sure where I stand in relation to the suggestion. It could be just harmlessly daft in the final analysis.

You're not understanding: She's saying you should ask--not wait for an answer. Just as you might ask: do you want pears or applesauce with your lunch? of a child who isn't able to give an answer. Or do you want to wear your blue jammies or your green jammies? At the point of early infancy, it's obviously about conditioning the parent to a) talk to the child b) regard the child as a sentient human being with thoughts and feelings of his/her own. As the child grows and grows in its ability to understand and comprehend and express preferences, it becomes more and more about the interchange: asking and waiting for a response. A child who is raised to believe that his/her feelings and needs are important will be better equipped to stand up for him/herself as the need arises. Not just if the child is about to be molested.

Do I necessarily agree with her? Probably not. But by the time my kids were pre-school, there were casual conversations about whether or not someone was allowed to touch them in private places, etc.

 

[southernhybrid]

ba

The larger cultural indoctrination has to change. That means music, TV, and movies. Not going to happen any time soon.

That's a good point. I used to enjoy watching porn with my husband many years ago. It was nothing like what I've been told about a lot of porn that young people watch these days. I've read articles about how contemporary porn has negatively influenced boys who are starting to date. I know that porn produced by females is very different than porn produced by males, but from what I've read, that's not the porn that boys are viewing.


And, music, unless hip hop has changed in the last few years or so, also often objectifies and even sometimes uses language that brutalizes women, so that certainly can have a very negative influence on young people. Boys might think that women are there for their pleasure and young girls might believe that they are supposed to do whatever a young man tells them to do.

I honestly think that as long as a parent is loving and nurturing, it's not necessary to worry about getting consent from very young children to do basic things. You should always be kind and gentle when caring for young children, but the parent is the one that needs to be in control. What do you do if your child is filthy and refuses to bathe? A parent needs to be the one who makes the rules and insists that the child bathe. Infants don't have enough brains that are mature enough to even understand the concept of consent.

I think that the best time for discussing consent and sexual behavior is around a child reaches puberty. Most children aren't even going to remember much about their first few years of life. My son, who will be 48 this week, told me yesterday, that he doesn't remember a thing prior to the age of five.

 

[steve_bank]

The larger cultural indoctrination has to change. That means music, TV, and movies. Not going to happen any time soon.

That's a good point. I used to enjoy watching porn with my husband many years ago. It was nothing like what I've been told about a lot of porn that young people watch these days. I've read articles about how contemporary porn has negatively influenced boys who are starting to date. I know that porn produced by females is very different than porn produced by males, but from what I've read, that's not the porn that boys are viewing.


And, music, unless hip hop has changed in the last few years or so, also often objectifies and even sometimes uses language that brutalizes women, so that certainly can have a very negative influence on young people. Boys might think that women are there for their pleasure and young girls might believe that they are supposed to do whatever a young man tells them to do.

I honestly think that as long as a parent is loving and nurturing, it's not necessary to worry about getting consent from very young children to do basic things. You should always be kind and gentle when caring for young children, but the parent is the one that needs to be in control. What do you do if your child is filthy and refuses to bathe? A parent needs to be the one who makes the rules and insists that the child bathe. Infants don't have enough brains that are mature enough to even understand the concept of consent.

I think that the best time for discussing consent and sexual behavior is around a child reaches puberty. Most children aren't even going to remember much about their first few years of life. My son, who will be 48 this week, told me yesterday, that he doesn't remember a thing prior to the age of five.

I do not watch porn any more. I came to see most of it representing abuse in different forms. Old guys forcing oral sex on young girls and the like. Mostly about male power and female subservience.

I bwelive in a healthy sexual culture porn would ;argely be irrelevant.

In rehab I have been watching a lot of old movies on TCM. from an older experienced perspective. Misogyny jumps right out. A lot of mild physical abuse, a woman gets slapped for speaking out and she just accepts it as a norm.

In the 50s 60s I had no sex education, and when I got older I found out I was not alone. In the 70s sex was easy to find and was good, but I had no clue what a relationship was. It was all about sex. A girlfriend said to ne let;'s get out of the bedroom, and it went right over my head.