How many young women accused of making false rape allegations are prosecuted and convicted - DERAIL from 1/3 of young men prosecuted...

[Derec]

How many young women accused of making false rape allegations are prosecuted and convicted?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

How many young women accused of making false rape allegations are prosecuted and convicted?

Often that will be a civil defamation of character case rather than a criminal trial.

 

[Derec]

Often that will be a civil defamation of character case rather than a criminal trial.

If there is enough evidence, there should be a criminal trial as well.

 

[Derec]

She said - "I was too drunk to give consent"
He said - "I was too drunk to know that she was as drunk as me"

If they were as drunk as each other, and the only issue is ability to consent rather than anybody forcing themselves on the other, then surely it was either consensual or else a double rape, with both of them equally guilty.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'm not sure about the idea of mutual rape. It sounds like an oxymoron.
Two people raping each other are effectively (paradoxically) both getting what they want.
Doesnt that cancel out the claim made by either person that they didn't want to engage in a sex act with that person?

 

[Toni]

She said - "I was too drunk to give consent"
He said - "I was too drunk to know that she was as drunk as me"

If they were as drunk as each other, and the only issue is ability to consent rather than anybody forcing themselves on the other, then surely it was either consensual or else a double rape, with both of them equally guilty.

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Even if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

 

[Arctish]

I'm not sure about the idea of mutual rape. It sounds like an oxymoron.
Two people raping each other are effectively (paradoxically) both getting what they want.
Doesnt that cancel out the claim made by either person that they didn't want to engage in a sex act with that person?

Not really.

Two people can steal from each other. Two people can intentionally cause grievous bodily harm to each other. Two different people can each be held fully responsible for a crime committed by a third person, although I think that's talking things too far.

I'm sure it's very rare for two people to be equally drunk and equally engaged in non-consensual sex acts with each other, and I'm sure it's even rarer that something like that could be successfully prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

[Arctish]

She said - "I was too drunk to give consent"
He said - "I was too drunk to know that she was as drunk as me"

If they were as drunk as each other, and the only issue is ability to consent rather than anybody forcing themselves on the other, then surely it was either consensual or else a double rape, with both of them equally guilty.

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Eve if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

Discussions like these always remind me of the drunk football fan who rubbed his scrotum on the face and neck of a passed out drunk fan of the opposing team. He was successfully prosecuted for sexual assault. No one seems to think that was a miscarriage of justice and yet people always talk about how baffled they are that drunk-on-drunk sex could be rape.

 

[Toni]

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Eve if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

Discussions like these always remind me of the drunk football fan who rubbed his scrotum on the face and neck of a passed out drunk fan of the opposing team. He was successfully prosecuted for sexual assault. No one seems to think that was a miscarriage of justice and yet people always talk about how baffled they are that drunk-on-drunk sex could be rape.

Was the passed out fan male? Because that would explain why people accept that it was sexual assault.

 

[Arctish]

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Eve if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

Discussions like these always remind me of the drunk football fan who rubbed his scrotum on the face and neck of a passed out drunk fan of the opposing team. He was successfully prosecuted for sexual assault. No one seems to think that was a miscarriage of justice and yet people always talk about how baffled they are that drunk-on-drunk sex could be rape.

Was the passed out fan male? Because that would explain why people accept that it was sexual assault.

Yes, he was.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'm not sure about the idea of mutual rape. It sounds like an oxymoron.
Two people raping each other are effectively (paradoxically) both getting what they want.
Doesnt that cancel out the claim made by either person that they didn't want to engage in a sex act with that person?

Not really.

Two people can steal from each other. Two people can intentionally cause grievous bodily harm to each other. Two different people can each be held fully responsible for a crime committed by a third person, although I think that's talking things too far.

Hmmm.
Are these really in the same category?

a) I don't want to be robbed by that person. And they don't want to be robbed by me.

b) I do want to engage in a sex act with that person and they want to do so with me.

Maybe you could take a nuanced approach and claim that their idea of a sex act and yours was so substantially different that neither party would give their consent to THAT type of sex act.

But still you have the unresolved question of intoxication being simultaneously used as an argument for incapacity (withheld consent) and as a defense of mental incapacity to regognise the other persons equivalent intoxication/incapacity.

I'm sure it's very rare for two people to be equally drunk and equally engaged in non-consensual sex acts with each other, and I'm sure it's even rarer that something like that could be successfully prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Agreed.
But how rare is morning-after the night-before 'buyers regret' when it comes to men versus women?
#bad_sex is often the prime reason many women conclude it couldn't possibly have been consensual.

 

[Arctish]

Hmmm.
Are these really in the same category?

a) I don't want to be robbed by that person. And they don't want to be robbed by me.

b) I do want to engage in a sex act with that person and they want to do so with me.

Maybe you could take a nuanced approach and claim that their idea of a sex act and yours was so substantially different that neither party would give their consent to THAT type of sex act.

But still you have the unresolved question of intoxication being simultaneously used as an argument for incapacity (withheld consent) and as a defense of mental incapacity to regognise the other persons equivalent intoxication/incapacity.

I'm sure it's very rare for two people to be equally drunk and equally engaged in non-consensual sex acts with each other, and I'm sure it's even rarer that something like that could be successfully prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Agreed.
But how rare is morning-after the night-before 'buyers regret' when it comes to men versus women?
#bad_sex is often the prime reason many women conclude it couldn't possibly have been consensual.

I'd need to see the data you used to reach the conclusion that "bad sex is often the prime reason many women conclude it couldn't possibly have been consensual" before accepting that as a valid point. It sounds like it's just a guess.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can't think of any other reason why a self-intoxicated woman who had consensual sex with an equally intoxicated male sex partner would belatedly withdraw consent - refusing to believe that they had actually slept with THAT guy.

I would need to see the data showing that there was some other verified justification for their belief they were raped.

Remember - I am specifically talking about two self-intoxicated, adults, both of whom claim they were too drunk to give or withhold informed consent. Ordinarily, both might admit that's foolish behaviour (misadventure) and one or both might regret the #bad_sex. But it surely can't be disputed that in cases like this, it is hardly ever the male participant who alleges that it must have been rape because he would NEVER have slept with someone like that.

 

[Toni]

I can't think of any other reason why a self-intoxicated woman who had consensual sex with an equally intoxicated male sex partner would belatedly withdraw consent - refusing to believe that they had actually slept with THAT guy.

I would need to see the data showing that there was some other verified justification for their belief they were raped.

Remember - I am specifically talking about two self-intoxicated, adults, both of whom claim they were too drunk to give or withhold informed consent. Ordinarily, both might admit that's foolish behaviour (misadventure) and one or both might regret the #bad_sex. But it surely can't be disputed that in cases like this, it is hardly ever the male participant who alleges that it must have been rape because he would NEVER have slept with someone like that.

Maybe because the idea that women claim rape based on morning after regrets is a myth.

There are specific reasons that being to drink negates consent. A person who is ‘too drunk’ may not realize what is happening until penetration has occurred. A person who is too drunk may be passed out and unable to say no. One of the standard of claiming you did not give consent is if you specifically said No. if you were too drunk to realize what was going on, you may not have said no because you literally were too drunk to know what was going on.

I know plenty of women who have had morning after—or mid-coitus regrets for that matter but none who claimed rape after.

 

[Lion IRC]

Maybe because the idea that women claim rape based on morning after regrets is a myth.

Agreed. The regret is very real but the rape is a myth.

There are specific reasons that being to drunk negates consent.

I know. That's what I've been saying.
Two people equally incapable of giving (or withholding) informed consent. Happens all the time.

A person who is ‘too drunk’ may not realize what is happening until penetration has occurred. A person who is too drunk may be passed out and unable to say no. One of the standard of claiming you did not give consent is if you specifically said No. if you were too drunk to realize what was going on, you may not have said no because you literally were too drunk to know what was going on.

Exactly.
And unlike 1856 or 1742 or 1914, women today are (thankfully) treated as having the intelligence and bodily autonomy to decide for themselves if they wish to get drunk off their face and risk having casual "hook up" sex with a virtual stranger.
You do agree that they (liberated wimmin) have that right - yes?
Remember the old days (LOL ROFL LOL) when women supposedly needed chaperones. Such Puritans in those days.

I know plenty of women who have had morning after—or mid-coitus regrets for that matter but none who claimed rape after.

Um..good for you..good for them...I guess.
Do I click the "like" button for that comment? I'm not sure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Eve if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

Discussions like these always remind me of the drunk football fan who rubbed his scrotum on the face and neck of a passed out drunk fan of the opposing team. He was successfully prosecuted for sexual assault. No one seems to think that was a miscarriage of justice and yet people always talk about how baffled they are that drunk-on-drunk sex could be rape.

This has nothing to do with the issue.

What you are describing is an issue where there is clearly a lack of consent on the part of one of the parties.

The issue with drunk on drunk sex is a matter of being too drunk to consent, not a case of non-consent. If they're both drunk either both raped or neither did. The current approach of allowing rape charges by someone who regretted it later makes no sense.

 

[J842P]

She said - "I was too drunk to give consent"
He said - "I was too drunk to know that she was as drunk as me"

If they were as drunk as each other, and the only issue is ability to consent rather than anybody forcing themselves on the other, then surely it was either consensual or else a double rape, with both of them equally guilty.

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Even if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

He's considering the cases were no force is involved and both parties are actively engaging in the sexual behavior, both both are probably too drunk to really consent.


It's a case that happens very often.

 

[J842P]

I'm sure it's very rare for two people to be equally drunk and equally engaged in non-consensual sex acts with each other, and I'm sure it's even rarer that something like that could be successfully prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You think it's rare for two similarly excessively drunk people to have sex?

I think I've witnessed that many time in my life, and I'm not particularly social. So I do this think it's very rare.

 

[Toni]

Wait up there: Why can’t a drunk person force himself on a woman, no matter how drunk he is (assuming he is nor too drunk to maintain an erection or alternatively use an object for penetration)? Of course he can. Eve if she is sober, he can still be the aggressor—and successful at raping her. Just because Kavanaugh chickened out doesn’t mean he couldn’t or would have raped Ford if he hadn’t changed his mind. This plays out at drunk parties all over the country every single night.

Discussions like these always remind me of the drunk football fan who rubbed his scrotum on the face and neck of a passed out drunk fan of the opposing team. He was successfully prosecuted for sexual assault. No one seems to think that was a miscarriage of justice and yet people always talk about how baffled they are that drunk-on-drunk sex could be rape.

This has nothing to do with the issue.

What you are describing is an issue where there is clearly a lack of consent on the part of one of the parties.

The issue with drunk on drunk sex is a matter of being too drunk to consent, not a case of non-consent. If they're both drunk either both raped or neither did. The current approach of allowing rape charges by someone who regretted it later makes no sense.

What? One can be drunk and NOT consent. One can be drunk and successfully fight off a would be rape by someone who is stone cold sober. Speaking from personal experience.

You keep clinging to some fantasy that 1) two drunk people agree to have sex and it’s either no rape or mutual rape or 2) a drunk woman cannot have refused sex because? All drunk women want sex with whoever is available but then feel bad about it the next day either because she feels like a slut or he doesn’t call the next day or the sex was bad. I suppose it’s progress that you can even consider that perhaps the sex wasn’t good for her. Or that it matters to her.

You neglect to take into consideration that a drunk person can overpower another person and can forcibly rape that person. And that a drunk person can sufficiently intimidate and threaten another person to rape them. Or confuse someone enough that they are unable to escape. This is helped tremendously by the way that women aresicialized to placate rather than to fight back. Not to mention the greater strength advantage that most males enjoy over most females.

Instead you keep clinging to some adolescent male fantasy that women just get drunk to fall onto the nearest horizontal surface to engage in drunken sex with total strangers.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'm sure it's very rare for two people to be equally drunk and equally engaged in non-consensual sex acts with each other, and I'm sure it's even rarer that something like that could be successfully prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You think it's rare for two similarly excessively drunk people to have sex?

I think I've witnessed that many time in my life, and I'm not particularly social. So I do this think it's very rare.

You do or don't think it's rare?