How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Elixir]

I see you are not much of a student of history.
I will let others to educate you about that part.

And yes, you threw EU and british under the bus.

The brevity and vacuity of your responses seems to directly correlate with your inability to address the points in the posts to which you are ostensibly responding. Responses in the format "You are stupid. Your government is corrupt. You did bad things" do nothing to add to discussion. But apparently it makes you feel better, since you do it a lot.

 

[barbos]

I see you are not much of a student of history.
I will let others to educate you about that part.

And yes, you threw EU and british under the bus.

The brevity and vacuity of your responses seems to directly correlate with your inability to address the points in the posts to which you are ostensibly responding. Responses in the format "You are stupid. Your government is corrupt. You did bad things" do nothing to add to discussion. But apparently it makes you feel better, since you do it a lot.

And your replies have a lot of words in it and no useful info.

 

[Elixir]

And your replies have a lot of words in it and no useful info.

I see you are a piss poor determinant of literary valuations.
</barbos>

 

[barbos]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

 

[Copernicus]

Having a history with someone is not a good reason to pursue a future with them.

Sometimes the relationship was just bad, and everyone knew it.

Sometimes countries just have to go their own way.

And in this case it's more the like of "we went on like, two dates, and now he keeps telling all his and my friends we're engaged. The psychopath showed up at my border with TROOPS, all like "we do annexation ceremony da?" And then that's when I called my neighbor to come over and tell him I'm not interested".

Nobody asks Ukraine to pursue a future with Russia. All I am asking is to behave like decent human beings. They can go and fuck themselves, I don't care. I just want my money back. That would be decent thing for them to do. They can even ban, harass and ukrainize their russian population. All I want is my money back.

Ukraine dosn't owe Russia anything. Russian company Gazprom was ordered to pay Ukrainian company Naftogaz some $3 billion by Stockholm arbitration. Gazprom already paid part of it, but they still owe some. Russia agreed to this. Putin agreed to this.

Russia owes Ukraine. Your country killed millions of Ukranians under Stalin. Stole their land in 2014. Now you want their water. Russia should pay Ukraine.

Somebody in Ukraine needs to send barbos a check so that Russia will not be forced to invade their country. Luckily for his pocketbook, armies, tanks, helicopters, bullets, bombs, etc.--all of these things are free. So, once the invasion is over, he gets his money back and everybody who didn't die or sustain a life-altering injury is happy.

 

[TV and credit cards]

"NATO had become a purely geopolitical project aimed at taking over territories orphaned by the collapse of the Warsaw Treaty Organization and the Soviet Union."

-Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov




-Former Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It isn't clear where barbos got his ideas about history from, but they are largely skewed by the propaganda that he's been exposed to. Part of the problem is that history books were routinely rewritten during the Soviet period to reflect official doctrine, so a lot of the history of his country is still more accurately depicted in Western sources that preserved the true record.

This is good to keep in mind. I ran into this problem in the Philippines. Because of the education system, you could find yourself in a conversation with someone who knew absolutely nothing of geography or world history. It can be quite an impediment in conversation. I ran into similar problems trying to conduct business with the Amish. One has to be careful about the assumptions they might make in dealing with these folks.

I've seen it with China, also. It came as no surprise to me that my wife didn't recognize "Hiroshima"--names get shoehorned into the Chinese set of syllables and often become unrecognizable as a result. It came as quite a surprise when I discovered she had no idea the bomb had ever been used in war or that the US had the bomb long before China. That's not ignorance, that's deliberately distorted education.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

More helpful if you actually told me what you think is the correct answer. It's been a few decades since I did history.

Edit: I googled it and really, my very brief one sentence recap was correct. Of course US entry into WWI and WWII was much more complicated than than one sentence for each would adequately address.

Germany kept attacking submarines???

More like, German submarines attacked supplies we were sending to England.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That's not ignorance, that's deliberately distorted education.

There's a difference?

 

[Toni]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

More helpful if you actually told me what you think is the correct answer. It's been a few decades since I did history.

Edit: I googled it and really, my very brief one sentence recap was correct. Of course US entry into WWI and WWII was much more complicated than than one sentence for each would adequately address.

Germany kept attacking submarines???

More like, German submarines attacked supplies we were sending to England.

You're correct: I worded my post incorrectly. Sleep deprivation.... The Germans kept using submarines to sink both merchant and passenger ships, including those carrying American citizens. (See Lusitania, see Housatonic, for starters).

Or this link: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/america-enters-world-war-i

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

 

[barbos]

"NATO had become a purely geopolitical project aimed at taking over territories orphaned by the collapse of the Warsaw Treaty Organization and the Soviet Union."

-Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov




-Former Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski

The usual Lavrov - succinct. He should be NATO secretary, he understands the mission and express himself better than the current one.

 

[SLD]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

 

[barbos]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

 

[SLD]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

So war is the solution?

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

 

[Jarhyn]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

I see you prefer nazi propaganda.

 

[Jarhyn]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

And when they do it, it's not "education". It's "prelude to attack", and even "threat".

As I said, quit offering such "education", because I do not want it.

It's also not "precautionary measures". It's active measures. Of threat.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

And when they do it, it's not "education". It's "prelude to attack", and even "threat".

As I said, quit offering such "education", because I do not want it.

It's also not "precautionary measures". It's active measures. Of threat.

If only you could put your fervor into something good. Like demanding explanation from Ukrainian Junta. Start with this books, then ask about investigation of Odessa massacre. Then proceed to sniper attack during coup.
Oh wait, you have never heard about it. That's right, all you hear is russian troops this russian troops that.

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian piece of shit historian takes WW2 photo of Russian children in finnish concentration camp, accurately cuts part of the photo with a board with finnish warning in it leaving only the part in russian, calls it ukrainian children in russian concentration camp and puts it in a schoolbook.
What do you call that? Education you DO want?
No wonder 120% of ukrainians want to join NATO

 

[barbos]

«Пророссийские сепаратисты». Вашингтон наказал украинцев за связь с Москвой - Газета.Ru

Новые ограничительные меры США нацелены на то, чтобы выявить, подорвать и разоблачить попытки «продолжающейся дестабилизирующей деятельности России на Украине», говорится в сообщении американского Минфина. В черный список на этот раз вошли четверо украинцев.

www.gazeta.ru

Meanwhile US started sanctioning members of ..... ukrainian parliament, for ... being in opposition to current regime in Ukraine. If only US could do the same with their own parliamentarians

 

[Copernicus]

Since barbos has been spouting a lot of mythology about history, particularly Ukrainian history, it's worth knowing where that nonsense came from. The following is an interesting article about the myth that Ukraine is "not a real country".

“There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History​

The notion that Ukraine is not a country, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of Russian leadership. Competing interpretations of history have turned into a key ingredient of the deepening dispute between Russia and the West and a subject that Putin in particular appears to feel unusually passionate about. In this article, Dr Björn Alexander Duben explores the question, is it historically accurate to claim has never truly been a nation or state in its own right?

Basically, Dr. Duben argues that the mythology about Ukraine's past was originally crafted by a man called  Vladislav Yuryevich Surkov aka the "Grey Cardinal". (See also this BBC Radio 4 expose on Surkov entitle Meet the most powerful man you’ve never heard of.) Surkov was either fired or quit in February, 2019, but he remains involved in Ukraine affairs. You will find echoes of his claims about Ukraine not being a "real country" not just in Putin's official rhetoric, but in a number of barbos's posts in this forum and this thread about Russian policy towards Ukraine. For example, barbos has falsely claimed that Ukrainian is not really a bona fide language, although he obviously has no knowledge of the Ukrainian language itself. Generally speaking, this is about the ideas that have helped shape general attitudes and opinions that many, if not most Russians, have today towards Ukraine. Even Donald Trump has parroted some of this nonsense, which he apparently got from Putin.

For more than twenty years, Vladislav Surkov was a known quantity in Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin. Dubbed the ‘Grey Cardinal’ and the Kremlin’s main ideologist, Surkov is commonly regarded as the mastermind of Putin’s Ukraine policy which plunged Moscow into open conflict with the West. By late February 2020, however, he had apparently fallen from grace and was unexpectedly sacked from his position as personal advisor to the president. Surkov has been prone to making frank, off-the-cuff public remarks that stand in marked contrast to the omertà practiced by most of Putin’s inner circle, offering rare glimpses into what policymakers in the Kremlin appear to be thinking. True to form, within days of his dismissal he stirred up fresh controversy by publicly questioning the existence of Ukrainian statehood. In an interview published on 26 February, Surkov stated that “there is no Ukraine. There is Ukrainian-ness. That is, a specific disorder of the mind. An astonishing enthusiasm for ethnography, driven to the extreme.” Surkov went on to claim that Ukraine is “a muddle instead of a state. […] But there is no nation. There is only a brochure, ‘The Self-Styled Ukraine’, but there is no Ukraine.”

“Ukraine is not even a state”

Surkov is not the first Russian official to make such a claim. The notion that Ukraine is not a country in its own right, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of many in the Russian leadership. Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.

Such slogans and insinuations might be little more than a rhetorical smokescreen concealing a pursuit of sober, hard-nosed realpolitik. But there is much to suggest that these beliefs are in fact informing policymaking at the highest levels of power. What’s more, they appear to have rubbed off on other world leaders as well. In an autumn 2017 briefing, US President Donald Trump reportedly exclaimed that Ukraine “wasn’t a ‘real country,’ that it had always been a part of Russia”.

See the article for a better picture of the actual history of Ukraine, instead of the myths that barbos is purveying here.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

 

[Jarhyn]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

So, joining an organization with commitments to respect borders and sovereignty might also be a bit out of Russia's wheelhouse.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Fair point. However, we're not sending any troops into Ukraine. We're only sending defensive weapons and moral support! We're lining up substantial economic sanctions against Russia, but I don't consider that to be a police action. You wouldn't consider Liechtenstein and Norway (both recently joined to group of countries that will employ economic sanctions) the world's police would you?

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute. Every country in the world has disputes with their neighbors. The US has disputes with Canada, for example, all the time. Fishing disputes, oil drilling, water disputes and etc. And a lot of them are nasty. But we negotiate in good faith and work it out. Putin is upset that Crimea is running out of water. Fine, I get it. Why not figure out a solution. Negotiate with Ukraine. Yea, it won't be easy. They stole their land. I think that the civilized world needs to come together to figure out methods to peacefully force countries to not invade their neighbors. All countries have a right to sovereignty. We should encourage all countries to respect borders. This should apply to Russia, Israel, China, the US, and even Liechtenstein.

 

[Jayjay]

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Deluded American with a german last (and first I think as well) name is unhappy about german reactance to harrras Russia with the same vigor US has.

This dumbass thinks that Nord Stream is not finished.
Also dumbass forgot about "Fuck the EU" incident.

Which dumbass? The columnist obviously knows Nord Stream 2 is finished and only waiting for certification, because he says so. The other guy who's twitter satire he quotes may or may not, but in any case it's hardly the point.

Only in a Russian propaganda-infested mind is an American diplomat using the F-word somehow supposed to be a worse "incident" than the fact that Russian intelligence services are apparently listening on said diplomat's calls. If the FSB or GRU is listening to Americans in Ukraine, they're sure as hell listening to Germans as well.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Fair point. However, we're not sending any troops into Ukraine. We're only sending defensive weapons and moral support! We're lining up substantial economic sanctions against Russia, but I don't consider that to be a police action. You wouldn't consider Liechtenstein and Norway (both recently joined to group of countries that will employ economic sanctions) the world's police would you?

The U.S. isn't sending ground troops or air support... yet. The U.S. involvement in foreign disputes has historically not started with troops but with aid and advice. This has been followed with "advisors" sent in, followed by some defense units to protect the "advisors", eventually combat units because the "advisors" and "defense units" were insufficient to accomplish whatever goal had been set.

It looks like pretty much a repeat here. Aid and military equipment has been sent. My experience with the military is that covert "advisors" accompany weapons shipments.

My question is why should the U.S. be this involved and not the E.U.?

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute. Every country in the world has disputes with their neighbors. The US has disputes with Canada, for example, all the time. Fishing disputes, oil drilling, water disputes and etc. And a lot of them are nasty. But we negotiate in good faith and work it out. Putin is upset that Crimea is running out of water. Fine, I get it. Why not figure out a solution. Negotiate with Ukraine. Yea, it won't be easy. They stole their land. I think that the civilized world needs to come together to figure out methods to peacefully force countries to not invade their neighbors. All countries have a right to sovereignty. We should encourage all countries to respect borders. This should apply to Russia, Israel, China, the US, and even Liechtenstein.

Hey, I am all for diplomatic discussions, even sanctions. But weapon shipments is something that should be done by countries more at risk in the long run like the E.U.

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

 

[barbos]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Well, US started the whole damn party. Of course they want to participate.

 

[barbos]

Which dumbass? The columnist obviously knows Nord Stream 2 is finished and only waiting for certification, because he says so. The other guy who's twitter satire he quotes may or may not, but in any case it's hardly the point.

The whole damn thing was 90% 3 years ago when US realized that they can make money by selling their gas to EU

Allies: “Yeah, I get it. Okay, so would you be willing to, I don’t know, not build that pipeline with Russia while [Russian President Vladimir] Putin is holding a gun to Kyiv’s head?”

Only in a Russian propaganda-infested mind is an American diplomat using the F-word somehow supposed to be a worse "incident" than the fact that Russian intelligence services are apparently listening on said diplomat's calls. If the FSB or GRU is listening to Americans in Ukraine, they're sure as hell listening to Germans as well.

I did not say what was worse. But if you are interested everybody listens to everybody so the whole comparison is kinda pointless. The point was, US did not care what EU thought.

 

[barbos]

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute.

I totally agree. US should not occupy Ukraine because it (US) has a (never ending) dispute with Russia. And may I also humbly remind again Iraq, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Syria, Lybia, Chile, Vietnam.

 

[Jayjay]

Ukraine dosn't owe Russia anything.

Not true. over 25 years Gazprom and other oil government controlled companies gave Ukraine $250bil in the form of discounts. Belarus got $150bil

That's not how discounts work. If I sell you a bicycle at a $50 discount, you get your bicycle and that $50 bucks remains in your wallet. You don't owe it to me in perpetuity.

As for the ridiculous interpretation that Crimea was "rented" to Ukraine, there is no such treaty and it remained as part of Ukraine during the dissolution of the Soviet Union. If anything, Russia should start paying rent to Ukraine for it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

 

[Elixir]

Russia would never honor any agreement requiring them to respect borders. That’s not what they do.

 

[Jayjay]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

It's unfortunate, but understandable from people who are at war with Russia. The anti-Russian sentiment is not the root cause, it's a reaction to the current situation.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine dosn't owe Russia anything.

Not true. over 25 years Gazprom and other oil government controlled companies gave Ukraine $250bil in the form of discounts. Belarus got $150bil

That's not how discounts work. If I sell you a bicycle at a $50 discount, you get your bicycle and that $50 bucks remains in your wallet. You don't owe it to me in perpetuity.

Actually it works exactly like I wrote. Russia gave discounts on the condition of good behaviour. Now you can make a point how much of good behavior was that worth but it certainly more than zero. In my opinion, You pay support for 20 years you should get 20 years of good behavior after you stop, at least. In reality there Ukraine has always been shitty toward Russia even while getting support. I personally think russian expectations of getting something in return were foolish.

So, $250bil and you can have Ukraine with all their nazis, do we have a deal?

As for the ridiculous interpretation that Crimea was "rented" to Ukraine, there is no such treaty and it remained as part of Ukraine durng the dissolution of the Soviet Union. If anything, Russia should start paying rent to Ukraine for it.

I explained million times, Crimea was obtained by Ukraine illegally.
Yes it was de facto rented. The split was simply never finalized.
And regardless of the history, people of Crimea voted to get out of the country which promised to hang them for being russians.

 

[barbos]

It's unfortunate, but understandable from people who are at war with Russia. The anti-Russian sentiment is not the root cause, it's a reaction to the current situation.

Nope! Try again. That shit started pretty much after they got independence and never stopped.
In fact that process started in all former USSR republics. They thought it was a great idea to build their national identity on trashing Russia equating it with Soviet Union.

Baltic States had pretty comical incidents while doing so.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

I doubt it will become something the US will handle unless things get real ugly. The US needs to remain focused on China. Japan needs to be focused on China as well as Australia. We've been telling the EU to stand up defensively for decades. These comments stayed under the radar until Trump said it in his own tactless way. Only then it became news.
I just hope Xi isn't watching things unfold in the Ukraine and experiencing Shrinky-dink Syndrome (koro) over Taiwan.

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

I would certainly condemn the whole government for not kicking him out.
That's not he only thing I have against ukrainian regime.

 

[SLD]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

I doubt it will become something the US will handle unless things get real ugly. The US needs to remain focused on China. Japan needs to be focused on China as well as Australia. We've been telling the EU to stand up defensively for decades. These comments stayed under the radar until Trump said it in his own tactless way. Only then it became news.
I just hope Xi isn't watching things unfold in the Ukraine and experiencing Shrinky-dink Syndrome (koro) over Taiwan.

That is exactly the scenario that the Pentagon is now openly working on. They fear that this is, in part, a distraction that they can use to invade Taiwan. The general feeling is that at their last summit, this scenario was discussed and possibly even planned. The US would have a tough time responding to both threats at once.

 

[Elixir]

Actually it works exactly like I wrote. Russia gave discounts on the condition of good behaviour.

Where are those conditions codified? Who determines how “good” behavior is?
I’m guessing there is no treaty and Russia decides if they’re being “good”.

 

[Jayjay]

Ukrainian piece of shit historian takes WW2 photo of Russian children in finnish concentration camp, accurately cuts part of the photo with a board with finnish warning in it leaving only the part in russian, calls it ukrainian children in russian concentration camp and puts it in a schoolbook.

That photo has an interesting history. Apparently it became iconic in Soviet Russia to depict all fascist concentration camp, so the Finnish text was usually cropped out. After all, USSR and Finland were supposed to be best friends during cold war so there was no need to unnecessarily propagandize against Finland. It's much more likely that the authors of the Ukrainian history textbook just used the cropped version and weren't aware of the context. But there is no reason to think they did the cropping. It's still a hugely incompetent and unprofessional thing for a textbook author to use an image without being aware of when and where it was taken though.

What does the caption say? Something about 1930s, but that's false, the picture is taken in 1944.

 

[SLD]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

An education from you is exactly what I am requesting. Please explain to me why an invasion of Ukraine by Russia is justified. I’m not even disagreeing with you. I truly don’t know what your support for this is based upon. You just keep ranting that we are all ignorant and have swallowed propaganda. Ok. I will indeed admit ignorance. I do not know why war is the appropriate response here. Please explain.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

An education from you is exactly what I am requesting. Please explain to me why an invasion of Ukraine by Russia is justified. I’m not even disagreeing with you. I truly don’t know what your support for this is based upon. You just keep ranting that we are all ignorant and have swallowed propaganda. Ok. I will indeed admit ignorance. I do not know why war is the appropriate response here. Please explain.

You are assuming and very fixated on it that I advocate an invasion.
What is the reason for this fixation?

Anyway.
Countries invade other countries all the time. US invaded Iraq - illegaly. Yugoslavia- illegally. Syria - illegaly. Afghanistan was legal, I can give you that.
Why can't Russia invade Ukraine?
There are way better reasons/justifications for Russia to invade Ukraine than US had for invading Iraq. I would prefer education but you clearly don't want to be educated. So consider invasion as a last option.

I posted a video earlier with prof. Mearsheimer. You should really watch it. In fact watch his other videos they are great regardless whether or not you agree with him.

 

[Jayjay]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

A certain high-ranking Russian official also once said that Georgian president Saakashvili should be hanged by his balls. He hasn't lost his job over it either.

 

[Elixir]

Ukraine first declared its independence with the invasion of Bolsheviks in late 1917. ... With the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state, formalized with a referendum on December 1,1991. AFAIK there was no written condition that Ukraine had to behave in a manner deemed "good" by Russia or suffer re-invasion and occupation...

US invaded Iraq - illegaly. Yugoslavia- illegally. Syria - illegaly. Afghanistan was legal, I can give you that.

And how many of them is the US occupying?
Let me add them up for you:
ZERO
Whereas Russia is still illegally occupying Crimea, is occupying Belarus and intends to illegally occupy Ukraine under the pretext that they are a threat to Russia. Kinda like if the US decided Canada was a threat.