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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Jarhyn

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Russia has laws in place to shut down opposition news organizations and political groups.
You remember when they jailed a bunch of girls for singing?
 

barbos

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NATO is now nothing like it was formed and the U.S. should reconsider if it wants to remain. Given the current NATO obligations, the U.S. would be required to militarily support Tajikistan if they had a border conflict with Afghanistan because Tajikistan is a member of NATO and Afghanistan isn't.
Tajikistan is a member of NATO???
 

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This article provides some color as to the propaganda barbos has to wad through at home. There are examples of what the media broadcasts today and after the annexation of Crimea.

Russian propaganda is rising in volume and vehemence. The themes of Western conspiracy and loathing are everywhere.
For the million's time. I don't really watch russian channels. So no need to wad through anything.
Excuse me. Until this thread, I haven’t read enough of your posts to know this. By the way, it’s it’s wade, not “wad”. My mistake.
Having said that, russian viewers are way better informed about your point of view than vice versa. Basically all the crap being spewed here is transmitted and commented rather well. And even more, unlike free press US, in Russia alternative views are directly presented, albeit for entertainment purposes. There are hard-core ukrainian quasi-nazi, and pro-american americans there. These are highest ranking shows. To be fair they are there for beating mostly, but they voice your point of view. These shows are hard to watch, Basically Jerry Springer but with politicians and commentators.
“Entertainment purposes”. Interesting. I’d like to learn more about this. I often have wanted more information to understand your position but have been hesitant to ask as I am an English only reader.
Find me any pro-russia russian dude on TV in US. You can't. All your TV experts are hard-core neocons like Friedman and Hill. They sound very polite and knowledgeable but they are paid full of shit liars.
While there are plenty of opinion for and against on many topics in the US, there are no pro-Russian voices on US media because Russia is pretty much settled opinion. Have you read the “Russian propaganda” article I linked? There is another article there about Russian oligarchs I found interesting. How are oligarchs viewed among the Russian people today?
You commented to me previously to seek news outside of the US and I am attempting to do just that. I don’t think Radio Free Europe and CEPA (US based) is what you had in mind but I’m working in that direction. If you can recommend any that support your opinion in English, I’d be happy to look into them.
My father is Russian or Rusyn. I haven’t been able to narrow it down. But I’d like to learn more without having wade through misleading opinion.
 

barbos

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While there are plenty of opinion for and against on many topics in the US, there are no pro-Russian voices on US media because Russia is pretty much settled opinion.
Indeed, it's settled among neocons who are paid by Millitary Industrial Complex. People like Mearsheimer are not allowed to MSM, and forget about any pro-russian russian. Mearsheimer talked about that in his lecture.
 

barbos

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Scandal in Germany. The head of their Navy was fired after he carelessly expressed his private opinion about this Ukraine debacle. Funny enough, he did not change his opinion during his apologies. Just an illustration that all these people have to lie to keep an appearance of unity and support of Ukraine.

Video of the admiral talking (in english)
 
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Elixir

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Having said that, russian viewers are way better informed about your point of view than vice versa.

Contradict yourself, much?
You don’t watch Russian propaganda tv, yet you know how those who do are “better informed”.
Ya sure ya betcha, comrade.
Your conditioning is evident.
 

barbos

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Having said that, russian viewers are way better informed about your point of view than vice versa.

Contradict yourself, much?
You don’t watch Russian propaganda tv, yet you know how those who do are “better informed”.
Ya sure ya betcha, comrade.
Your conditioning is evident.
No, I don't contradict myself. I have watched these shows few times and made a conclusion based on that. American dude is always there.
 

Elixir

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Yes you do contradict yourself.
As your conditioning is evident, these weak denials only affirm the propaganda-soaked nature of your given opinions.
 

Elixir

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Too damn funny.
An opinion editor for Moscow Times is Barbos’ source.

But rest assured, he isn’t constantly exposed to pootey propaganda.
😳
 

barbos

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Too damn funny.
An opinion editor for Moscow Times is Barbos’ source.

But rest assured, he isn’t constantly exposed to pootey propaganda.
😳
Your incoherent ramblings are becoming annoying.
He is not my source, he is an illustration of my claim that Russian political shows present people with alternative view points. The guy is an american
Other guys on his side are ukrainians.

So find me one occasion when american political show had a pro-Russian guest.
Just one time would be great.
 

Elixir

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Your incoherent ramblings are becoming annoying.
You're annoyed because I am telling the truth.
You sound like Trump railing against the Stolen Election.

So find me one occasion when american political show had a pro-Russian guest.
Just one time would be great.

Have you never heard of Paul Manafort?
Can you say "Mike Flynn"? (Seen him pushing his pro-Russian agenda on CNN, MSNBC AND FOX)
How about Dana Rohrabacher? (That's three right off the top of my head. I can see the faces of others but I forget their names)

Sorry little buddy - during the Trump years, you couldn't swing a dead cat anywhere near the White House without hitting a Russian.
And half of them were elbowing each other to get on any TV that would have them.
I have to hand it to Russia - they sure know how to keep their little agitators in the dark.
 

Copernicus

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Although barbos claims not to watch Russian TV, he gets most of his news from the internet, which can display Russian TV shows. He will sometimes post news here from Russian TV channels, so he obviously does monitor them.

I've gotten the same story from right wingers in the US who brag about never watching Fox News, even though they post Fox News stories they've seen on the internet. They just don't count it as watching news on TV.
 

Copernicus

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Ukrainian President Zelensky has predicted that Russia may try to take Kharkiv first, given the fact that this city of a million people has a large population of Russian speakers with family ties to Russia. This is also the city of Yevheniy Murayev, who was named by the UK as one possible Ukrainian that the Kremlin might try to install at the head of a puppet regime in Kyiv.

See the Kyiv Post article: President Zelensky gives candid interview to Washington Post – says Russia might try to seize Kharkiv
 

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NATO is now nothing like it was formed and the U.S. should reconsider if it wants to remain. Given the current NATO obligations, the U.S. would be required to militarily support Tajikistan if they had a border conflict with Afghanistan because Tajikistan is a member of NATO and Afghanistan isn't.

By withdrawing from NATO, the U.S. could decide to help some country if we saw just reason but would not be obligated, under treaty, to do so

I think that you are wildly underestimating the ability of the EU, which is not a military alliance, to resist Russian expansionism, especially if they use the "divide and conquer" strategy that has worked so well since the time of Julius Caesar. Once Ukraine is absorbed, Moldova would probably also go, and pressure would be put on all of the former East European bloc to fall back in line with Russia. But for NATO membership, of course. And that's the point.

BTW, Tajikistan is not a member of NATO, and there would be no treaty obligation for the US to defend it if it were attacked by Afghanistan or anyone else. It is a member of the Russian-led CSTO, so Russia would be more likely to intervene.

Exactly. The point of NATO is to prevent a divide-and-conquer taking out the countries without nukes.

We have also seen that the European militaries leave a lot to be desired.
 

SLD

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Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.
Ukraine isn't going to attack Russia. Your theory doesn't pass the laugh test.
Maybe, maybe not. But Georgia did.
Can you elaborate? How did Georgia attack Russia? I’m unaware of any source even claiming that Georgian troops crossed the border into Russia. Please enlighten us.
 

Copernicus

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Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.
Ukraine isn't going to attack Russia. Your theory doesn't pass the laugh test.
Maybe, maybe not. But Georgia did.
Can you elaborate? How did Georgia attack Russia? I’m unaware of any source even claiming that Georgian troops crossed the border into Russia. Please enlighten us.
It will be interesting to learn what barbos makes of the conflict, but the fact is that Abkhazia and South Ossetia were recognized as Georgian territory before the war. Russian-backed separatist movements in both territories had been locked in hostilities with Georgia and were in a state of ceasefire. However, after Putin came to power and the government of Georgia took a decidedly pro-Western turn, the South Ossetians broke the ceasefire and began shelling Georgian territory. When Georgia sent troops in and captured most of the South Ossetian stronghold of Tskhinvali, Russia sent troops into the disputed territory. They also sent troops to back Abkhazian rebels, blockaded Georgia, and occupied some undisputed Georgian territory. IOW, Russia was quite well-prepared with a plan to take advantage of Georgian advances back into disputed territory, after South Ossetia suddenly broke the ceasefire. At no time did Georgia ever invade Russian territory, and Russia definitely did invade Georgia. See  Russo-Georgian War.
 

Jarhyn

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Code:
[QUOTE="SLD, post: 975046, member: 226"]
[QUOTE="barbos, post: 974770, member: 224"]
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Please stop pinging me.Screenshot_20220123-190234~2.png
 

barbos

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Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.
Ukraine isn't going to attack Russia. Your theory doesn't pass the laugh test.
Maybe, maybe not. But Georgia did.
Can you elaborate? How did Georgia attack Russia? I’m unaware of any source even claiming that Georgian troops crossed the border into Russia. Please enlighten us.
According to EU investigation Georgia attacked South Ossetia with russian peacekeepers in it.
Yes, EU concluded that Saakashvili started that war. And he did so expecting NATO would help. Of course you don't know any of that because your MSM says Russia invaded Georgia and that was bad.
 

Copernicus

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Code:
[QUOTE="SLD, post: 975046, member: 226"]
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Please stop pinging me.View attachment 36875

What's this all about? My post looks perfectly normal. Maybe the FSB has misconfigured one of their monitoring tools and it spewed this out on your screen when barbos looked at it. :)
 

barbos

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Can you say "Mike Flynn"? (Seen him pushing his pro-Russian agenda on CNN, MSNBC AND FOX)
I said russian dude and someone who is actually not deranged idiot who probably would not be able to find Russia on a map. Pozner for example.
 

Jarhyn

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Code:
[QUOTE="SLD, post: 975046, member: 226"]
[QUOTE="barbos, post: 974770, member: 224"]
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Please stop pinging me.View attachment 36875

What's this all about? My post looks perfectly normal. Maybe the FSB has misconfigured one of their monitoring tools and it spewed this out on your screen when barbos looked at it. :)
It is about me wanting to stop having a hidden quote of myself buried in your message chain that incessantly pings me whenever it gets quoted.

The image reveals how to fix that TalkFreethought style. Click the one in the corner, then the [ ].
 

Copernicus

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According to EU investigation Georgia attacked South Ossetia with russian peacekeepers in it.
Yes, EU concluded that Saakashvili started that war. And he did so expecting NATO would help. Of course you don't know any of that because your MSM says Russia invaded Georgia and that was bad.

Barbos is correct about that EU report, but it also condemned Russia's response as unreasonable and a violation of international law. That is, the Georgian side used excessive force first, and then Russia showed up with an even more excessive response. So the EU report blamed Russia, as well, but Barbos left out that detail. However, the EU report took the beginning of hostilities to start on August 7 and apparently did not see anything suspicious in South Ossetia's shelling of Georgia on August 6, which provoked the Georgian response to it. If Russian advisors were indeed in South Ossetia on August 6, they were there on a peacekeeping mission, but did nothing to stop the rebels from breaking the ceasefire. Georgia's position, of course, is that the Russians had a hand in the attack as a provocation to give them an excuse to invade when Georgia inevitably counterattacked.

See Georgia started war with Russia: EU-backed report:

An independent report blamed Georgia on Wednesday for starting last year’s five-day war with Russia, but said Moscow’s military response went beyond reasonable limits and violated international law.

The report commissioned by the European Union said both sides had broken international humanitarian laws and found evidence of ethnic cleansing against ethnic Georgians during Russia’s intervention in the rebel province of South Ossetia.

See also:  Responsibility for the Russo-Georgian War
 

Copernicus

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It is about me wanting to stop having a hidden quote of myself buried in your message chain that incessantly pings me whenever it gets quoted.

The image reveals how to fix that TalkFreethought style. Click the one in the corner, then the [ ].
Sorry, if I left those tags in, which were not visible to me when I posted. I did make an effort to clean up the excessive embedding of BBCode when I composed the post, but I may have missed some tags. Unfortunately, the timeout on editing is now in effect, so I can't go back to fix it.
 

Jarhyn

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It is about me wanting to stop having a hidden quote of myself buried in your message chain that incessantly pings me whenever it gets quoted.

The image reveals how to fix that TalkFreethought style. Click the one in the corner, then the [ ].
Sorry, if I left those tags in, which were not visible to me when I posted. I did make an effort to clean up the excessive embedding of BBCode when I composed the post, but I may have missed some tags. Unfortunately, the timeout on editing is now in effect, so I can't go back to fix it.
Oh, I'm just salty because like, at first I was like "lol, this will be funny (and oh, it was!)" when the quote system was a little jankey and nobody knew how to work any of the interface but now I'm over that and just want people to know how to fix their quotes and stuff.

I love you and want you to thrive! This is all. Also, I'm prickly.
 

SLD

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Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.
Ukraine isn't going to attack Russia. Your theory doesn't pass the laugh test.
Maybe, maybe not. But Georgia did.
Can you elaborate? How did Georgia attack Russia? I’m unaware of any source even claiming that Georgian troops crossed the border into Russia. Please enlighten us.
According to EU investigation Georgia attacked South Ossetia with russian peacekeepers in it.
Yes, EU concluded that Saakashvili started that war. And he did so expecting NATO would help. Of course you don't know any of that because your MSM says Russia invaded Georgia and that was bad.
South Ossetia is part of Russia?
 

Jarhyn

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Code:
[QUOTE="barbos, post: 975106, member: 224"]
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Please stop pinging me.View attachment 36875
 

Elixir

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Can you say "Mike Flynn"? (Seen him pushing his pro-Russian agenda on CNN, MSNBC AND FOX)
I said russian dude
That is not true. Here is what you said:
So find me one occasion when american political show had a pro-Russian guest.
Just one time would be great.

(bold added so you know what you actually said.)
Now you have moved the goalposts. I'm sure I could find a Russian-born person to satisfy your stated requirements, but why bother when you are not honest enough to acknowledge that I fulfilled your stated requirement the first time.

and someone who is actually not deranged idiot who probably would not be able to find Russia on a map.

I think Flynn and Manafort can find their way back to the place where Uncle Vlad & Company lavished good times upon them.
 

barbos

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(bold added so you know what you actually said.)
He is not pro-ruissian, he is pro-trump. He never even commented on Russia issues and he can't do that anyway, he simply does not know anything.

Anyway, original request said "pro-russian russian"
 

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Ukraine going on the offensive in the Donets Basin.
So says the DPR militia deputy head.
They picked a fine time, huh? What with a hundred thousand Russian peacekeepers milling about.
Meanwhile Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov adds that the United States and NATO were escalating tensions through "information hysteria" and "concrete actions," adding that the risk of an offensive by Ukrainian troops against pro-Russia separatists was "very high."
What’s good neighbor Russia to do? Russian passport holders must be defended.
 

Elixir

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Anyway, original request said "pro-russian russian"

I quoted the request to which I responded.
And that wasn’t it.
You should quote what you’re referring to so others don’t continue to believe you’re making shit up.
Anyhow your “no true Scotsman” fallacy is noted. Manafort in particular is as pro-Russian as Uncle Vlad himself.
 

barbos

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Anyhow your “no true Scotsman” fallacy is noted
A asked for pro-russian russian defending Russia,
You gave me none of that. Neither men are pro-russian, neither of them are russian and neither of them were ever defending Russia.
They are not even commentators/pundits or even journalists.

You can suggest these idiot-trumpers with funny russian quotes with the same success. Fucking garbage
 

Elixir

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Elixir

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it's a very small world of decent journalists in America who are completely cut off by MSM for profit clowns.

An even smaller world of "decent journalists in America who are completely cut off by MSM for profit clowns" and STILL HAVE RUNNING BLOGS IN THE HUFFINGTON POST.

Your ignorance is truly impressive, barbos.
 

Copernicus

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A asked for pro-russian russian defending Russia.
Where?
I must have missed that request.
Yes, you must have.
And so did you.
No quote?
Apparently you made that up along with a bunch of your other "facts".

That's fucking rich. You can have discussions with copercinus, you are on my ignore list.

Ah, the last refuge of the scoundrel... nice reveal there, Comrade! :D
Welcome to the barbos ignore list. If you made it to this hellhole of isolation, you must truly have done something so terrible as to hurt his deep respect for truth, justice, and the Russian way. When he is done putting folks in here, barbos will have won, because nobody will be left for him to ignore or even talk to.
:lalala:
 

Copernicus

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Ukraine going on the offensive in the Donets Basin.
So says the DPR militia deputy head.
They picked a fine time, huh? What with a hundred thousand Russian peacekeepers milling about.
Meanwhile Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov adds that the United States and NATO were escalating tensions through "information hysteria" and "concrete actions," adding that the risk of an offensive by Ukrainian troops against pro-Russia separatists was "very high."
What’s good neighbor Russia to do? Russian passport holders must be defended.
This looks like a lame attempt to create a pretext for Putin's grand invasion plan. If they follow the same playbook that they did with Georgia, Russia will have their Donetsk proxies start firing at Ukrainian troops in a way that will be sure to draw a response, after which Russian troops will have no choice but to invade. :rolleyes:
 
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