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How to Maintain Religious Faith

T.G.G. Moogly

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The person is long gone from here but their common refrain was "Show me your god." Nice and direct, so I always liked it. Of course in the theistic sense no one can show you their god, all they can offer is faith behavior because there are no gods.

As I've argued elsewhere I can claim to be a billionaire and my proof would be to show someone the money in my wallet telling them it's part of my billions of dollars. Not too convincing but if I'm convinced that I'm a billionaire that's proof enough for me.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
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I can express feelings without religion.
Are you just being inseminate or are you completely detached from culture?

We all use metaphors and analogies.

There is almost always a secular alternative, however. And my choice is to use those and stop feeding the religionists with what they think is validation of their supremacy.

There are really good reasons to avoid reigious, especially dominant religious, expressions.
 
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I'm saying you propose an impossible test...
Your comments are way too vague. What "test" are you referring to?

Anyway, if the test of a claim is "impossible" for the claimant to pass, then like I've already pointed out the claim fails the test. And then I would be right in deeming the claim to be false. That's the way it works.
...and then feel superior when the test is failed.
I do feel good about being right. Do you prefer to be wrong?
...It's not much of an accomplishment, but congratulations, none the less.
Exposing false claims as baloney is an accomplishment as far as I'm concerned. If you want to believe what isn't true, then that's your right to do so. Just don't blame me when disaster strikes.
 

abaddon

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Your comments are way too vague. What "test" are you referring to?
....
Exposing false claims as baloney...
That's perfectly circular... the falsifying of false claims as false.

Your posts are just cliches strung together. You picked up a few standard phrases from atheist/theist arguments on the net but your application of them needs to be reasoned through better.

One sign of this is the circularity that keeps popping up in your posts.

You say "if the test of a claim is "impossible" for the claimant to pass, then like I've already pointed out the claim fails the test. And then I would be right in deeming the claim to be false."

This is saying that if a person can't pass a test they can't pass a test. If you can't see the circularity there, you need to learn how to or you can't rightly claim to be applying reason.

Another couple examples of circular phrases from your posts include: "If all religions are bad, then they're all bad." And "Uh, they're wrong compared to what's right. What else would they be wrong compared to?"

You need to try to understand that YOU are a claim-maker too. So, by your own standard, YOU need to give reasons for your claims and not merely assume from the start that you're right and so "the opponent" is the only one that makes claims (or, in your words, "false claims") and the only one that must support them.

Bronzeage proposed religious people have a feeling of gratitude to show for their beliefs.

The test you proposed for religious folk's feelings of gratitude is that they need to prove they feel gratitude. Except, in your typical moralizing way, you turned it into the abstract moralism about "backing up one's words... to demonstrate that one is not lying".

So, to figure out if they're lying about the benefit they get from religion (a feeling of gratitude), you should propose a FAIR test about how they can demonstrate it's not a lie (which I would be very interested to see if it can be done). At least the effort at being fair is necessary if you want to reason about this instead of preach about it.
 
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Are you just being inseminate...
I think you're using the wrong word here. "Inseminate" is what the vet does to the cow when the farmer wants a calf.
...or are you completely detached from culture?
I'm not sure what you mean.
We all use metaphors and analogies. My fanily ws Catholic but not very religious, but I grew up hearing biblical metaphors. It was in the culture. Along with a number of Jewish Yiddish metaphors like being a schmuck. Schmuck. If rember right the word literaly refers to the leftover skin after circumcision. Or putz or schmaltz.
Yes. Metaphors are commonly used.
To be 'religiously' catnapped all the time would be mind numbing. Get it,I p;layed on the word religious to make a point.
No. I don't get it. What are you talking about?
IMO psychologically god can simply be a talking point, a point of reference.
I suppose God can be a lot of things, but in the context of religion God is a magic man in the sky who's always asking for money.
In response to all your posts I might say, 'Who do you think you are, Moses down from the mountain?'. or 'Who do yu think you are, I don;t see you walking on water'.
You might say that, but I wouldn't know what you're talking about.
How's the view from way up there on Mount Olympus looking down on all us ignorant fools?
Now, that's a question I understand! The way I see it, there are no stupid people--only lazy ones. The knowledge I have and the critical thinking I use came through a huge amount of hard work on my part. I'm proud of my ability to debunk nonsense no matter how much the faithful scream about my doing so. I find it really strange that so many people seem to want to believe lies and mistakes and hate to be set straight. Ignorance might be bliss, but sooner or later the truth catches up to us.
 
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Your comments are way too vague. What "test" are you referring to?
....
Exposing false claims as baloney...
That's perfectly circular... the falsifying of false claims as false.

Your posts are just cliches strung together. You picked up a few standard phrases from atheist/theist arguments on the net but your application of them needs to be reasoned through better.

One sign of this is the circularity that keeps popping up in your posts.

You say "if the test of a claim is "impossible" for the claimant to pass, then like I've already pointed out the claim fails the test. And then I would be right in deeming the claim to be false."

This is saying that if a person can't pass a test they can't pass a test. If you can't see the circularity there, you need to learn how to or you can't rightly claim to be applying reason.

Another couple examples of circular phrases from your posts include: "If all religions are bad, then they're all bad." And "Uh, they're wrong compared to what's right. What else would they be wrong compared to?"
I've posted no circular arguments. A circular argument takes the following format:

1. A is true because of B...
...and...
2. B is true because of A.

To make your case, you need to post something I said that follows this format, and good luck with that!
You need to try to understand that YOU are a claim-maker too. So, by your own standard, YOU need to give reasons for your claims and not merely assume from the start that you're right and so "the opponent" is the only one that makes claims (or, in your words, "false claims") and the only one that must support them.
I just posted a reason for one of my conclusions. I always post reasons for my conclusions.
Bronzeage proposed religious people have a feeling of gratitude to show for their beliefs.

The test you proposed for religious folk's feelings of gratitude is that they need to prove they feel gratitude. Except, in your typical moralizing way, you turned it into the abstract moralism about "backing up one's words... to demonstrate that one is not lying".
If you disagree with that logic, then go ahead and believe whatever you're told. Did you read that email in your inbox telling you you've won the Nigerian lottery and only need to wire them $600 to receive your winnings? You go right ahead and believe them without proof if you don't like my "abstract moralism."
So, to figure out if they're lying about the benefit they get from religion (a feeling of gratitude), you should propose a FAIR test about how they can demonstrate it's not a lie (which I would be very interested to see if it can be done). At least the effort at being fair is necessary if you want to reason about this instead of preach about it.
OK. My fair test is to have a person demonstrate what they claim to be true. If they say they can do A, and they go ahead and do A, then I will believe them.

I think the reactions I'm getting from many of the people on this board are bizarre but not surprising. When it comes to religion, everyday reasoning goes flying out the window. Any prudent person knows better than to be quick to believe outlandish claims without good evidence to back them up.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
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Are you just being inseminate...
I think you're using the wrong word here. "Inseminate" is what the vet does to the cow when the farmer wants a calf.
...or are you completely detached from culture?
I'm not sure what you mean.
We all use metaphors and analogies. My fanily ws Catholic but not very religious, but I grew up hearing biblical metaphors. It was in the culture. Along with a number of Jewish Yiddish metaphors like being a schmuck. Schmuck. If rember right the word literaly refers to the leftover skin after circumcision. Or putz or schmaltz.
Yes. Metaphors are commonly used.
To be 'religiously' catnapped all the time would be mind numbing. Get it,I p;layed on the word religious to make a point.
No. I don't get it. What are you talking about?
IMO psychologically god can simply be a talking point, a point of reference.
I suppose God can be a lot of things, but in the context of religion God is a magic man in the sky who's always asking for money.
In response to all your posts I might say, 'Who do you think you are, Moses down from the mountain?'. or 'Who do yu think you are, I don;t see you walking on water'.
You might say that, but I wouldn't know what you're talking about.
How's the view from way up there on Mount Olympus looking down on all us ignorant fools?
Now, that's a question I understand! The way I see it, there are no stupid people--only lazy ones. The knowledge I have and the critical thinking I use came through a huge amount of hard work on my part. I'm proud of my ability to debunk nonsense no matter how much the faithful scream about my doing so. I find it really strange that so many people seem to want to believe lies and mistakes and hate to be set straight. Ignorance might be bliss, but sooner or later the truth catches up to

Are you just being inseminate...
I think you're using the wrong word here. "Inseminate" is what the vet does to the cow when the farmer wants a calf.
...or are you completely detached from culture?
I'm not sure what you mean.
We all use metaphors and analogies. My fanily ws Catholic but not very religious, but I grew up hearing biblical metaphors. It was in the culture. Along with a number of Jewish Yiddish metaphors like being a schmuck. Schmuck. If rember right the word literaly refers to the leftover skin after circumcision. Or putz or schmaltz.
Yes. Metaphors are commonly used.
To be 'religiously' catnapped all the time would be mind numbing. Get it,I p;layed on the word religious to make a point.
No. I don't get it. What are you talking about?
IMO psychologically god can simply be a talking point, a point of reference.
I suppose God can be a lot of things, but in the context of religion God is a magic man in the sky who's always asking for money.
In response to all your posts I might say, 'Who do you think you are, Moses down from the mountain?'. or 'Who do yu think you are, I don;t see you walking on water'.
You might say that, but I wouldn't know what you're talking about.
How's the view from way up there on Mount Olympus looking down on all us ignorant fools?
Now, that's a question I understand! The way I see it, there are no stupid people--only lazy ones. The knowledge I have and the critical thinking I use came through a huge amount of hard work on my part. I'm proud of my ability to debunk nonsense no matter how much the faithful scream about my doing so. I find it really strange that so many people seem to want to believe lies and mistakes and hate to be set straight. Ignorance might be bliss, but sooner or later the truth catches up to us.
The intended word is obstinate. Literature including Chritianity is part of culture and history

If you do not understand the metaphors I'd say you do not understand Christianity and its importance in culture.. The metphors are part of what maintains religion.

I do not take pride debating religion. Given the power people like that tend to be excellent Inquisitors and politically correct thought police. Proud Relgios Debunker sounds like an ideological identity, the flip side of theist. Are you on a quest to rid the world of unscintific beliefs?

IMO analogous to the Macarthy commie witch hunt. There were communists in the country working against us, but he turned it into an Inquisition. Like our current progressives hell bent to uncover any speech and thought that can remotely be interpreted as racist or biased.

Traditional Native Americans have a set of traditional belifs,. Thier orgins myts are proven wrong by gentics. Whay on Erath woud I care what they belive in their culture or rpesume to tell ten they are wrong?

Christianity is different in this country because of its political power and goals of enacting biblcal morality into law. If not for that I would not be here arguing religion.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Traditional Native Americans have a set of traditional belifs,. Thier orgins myts are proven wrong by gentics. Whay on Erath woud I care what they belive in their culture or rpesume to tell ten they are wrong?
Because it has a negative effect on your life owing to the fact that it is unscientific woo? In a better world we all outgrow Santa belief. But many of us do not. Do you think that is a positive or a negative?
 
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The intended word is obstinate.
Please take care to choose your words properly. Otherwise, I probably won't know what you're talking about.
Literature including Chritianity is part of culture and history
Yes, but what is the relevance of saying so?
If you do not understand the metaphors I'd say you do not understand Christianity and its importance in culture.. The metphors are part of what maintains religion.
What metaphors are you referring to? I'm well aware that religions in particular Christianity uses metaphors, but religions also make claims that are meant to be taken literally. If a religion makes a statement that is factually incorrect, then it's dishonest to arbitrarily interpret that statement metaphorically to save it.
I do not take pride debating religion.
That's unfortunate. Why are you ashamed to debate religion?
Given the power people like that tend to be excellent Inquisitors and politically correct thought police.
I've seen plenty of people debate religion, and I wouldn't describe any of them that way. The way I look at it, people who debate religion simply want the freedom to express their views and explain why they hold those views. It was the Christian inquisitors who opposed open expression of any views not their own.
Proud Relgios Debunker sounds like an ideological identity, the flip side of theist. Are you on a quest to rid the world of unscintific beliefs?
Obviously I'm in favor of science.
IMO analogous to the Macarthy commie witch hunt. There were communists in the country working against us, but he turned it into an Inquisition.
That's an example of what I just pointed out. Inquisitors oppose open and free debate meant to uncover the truth. You appear to oppose my expressing my views. Are you not then one of those inquisitors you denounce?
Like our current progressives hell bent to uncover any speech and thought that can remotely be interpreted as racist or biased.
I'm seeing some people in this forum "hell bent to uncover any speech and thought that can remotely be interpreted as antireligious."
Traditional Native Americans have a set of traditional belifs,. Thier orgins myts are proven wrong by gentics. Whay on Erath woud I care what they belive in their culture or rpesume to tell ten they are wrong?
The reasons to correct them should be obvious. All people including American Indians deserve to be informed and educated properly. They may decide to pursue careers in medical research, for example, in which they'll need to understand genetics to help people survive deadly diseases like Covid 19. Beliefs have consequences, and ignorance of important facts can have disastrous results. We are then morally obligated to tell people what's right and what's baloney.
Christianity is different in this country because of its political power and goals of enacting biblcal morality into law. If not for that I would not be here arguing religion.
But what's wrong with that? Don't people have the right to enact "Biblical morality" into law? It's their belief--let them believe it!
 

steve_bank

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There is a point at which there is no point to continue with discussion. Two sides keep repeating the same things. I have said everything I need to. The last word is yours.
 
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Traditional Native Americans have a set of traditional belifs,. Thier orgins myts are proven wrong by gentics. Whay on Erath woud I care what they belive in their culture or rpesume to tell ten they are wrong?
Because it has a negative effect on your life owing to the fact that it is unscientific woo? In a better world we all outgrow Santa belief. But many of us do not. Do you think that is a positive or a negative?
It appears that if you replace Santa with God in your question, then the outcome seems to be positive for many people. It looks like God is an adult's version of Santa complete with legions of defenders of the faith who try to make belief in God appear to be respectable. Any person who raises objections is denounced as a heretic or an inquisitor, as ironic as that may be. It is painful for many people to doubt their God is real because he is seen as their only hope, and that's why we see so much anger on the part of the religious.
 
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