How to reduce teen pregnancy

[Rhea]

I am always thrilled whenever men try to solve the issue of young girls and women and unwanted pregnancy by suggesting something girls and women need to do to reduce the inconvenience of unintended early pregnancies which has the added benefit of requiring zero effort or thought or inconvenience for men and leaves the girls and women available for sex with men. Especially when the same men also argue against free birth control for women.


Two things that also work or have the potential to work:

1. Help girls envision a future fore themselves that includes education and economic security.
2. Develope long acting birth control for males, and make it readily available.

Birth control for either or both genders does not eliminate the risk of STDs nor does it mitigate the negative consequences of early sexual involvement.

I'm coming in on this late and responding to a page-1 post, so I'll work to catch up, but WHOA!!! wanted to respond to this. It seems to advance the idea that girls don't want sex. As I said in my last reply, a lot of the reason girls don't want sex _now_ is the heavy and unbalanced consequence. Take that away and... WOOOOOT!!!! Bring it! I like sex, always have, even as a teen. Why are you trying to keep that away from me? Not understanding.

 

[Rhea]

You are t actually opposed to change: you've proposed it yourself. You are just opposed to increased opportunities for young girls and women and less access to consequence free(for them) sex with teenaged girls for teenaged boys and men.

What? No! The whole article was about how when women got consequence-free sex, they COULD have increased opportunities! The women interviewed in the article WANTED to be able to have sex without getting pregnant!

It's much more important that teenaged girls remain sexually available for consequence free sex on demand. Why bother about their futures? They're only girls.

TOTALLY not getting your idea that me on birth control enjoying consequence-free sex is a detriment to my future. Can you explain? How does me being a sexually active teen - who is not getting pregnant - interfere with my future AT ALL?

Yes, girls are sexual beings. But girls are also rational beings who have the capacity to delay parenthood if they see better options for themselves. Who delay early sexual involvement while they are getting the education they will need to make meaningful choices in their lives.

Still baffled about why you seem to think sex turns off your brain. Sex AND a future!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

AFIK, sex with a 12 year old is not legal. Period.

It is for 12 year olds having sex with each other, or with other children under the age of consent. 12 year olds having sex with fourteen or fifteen year olds doesn't violate any law that I'm aware of.

There should be no possibility of sex for a 12 year old. Or 13-15 year old. In any state. Whether 16+ should be having sex is debatable. I would argue that they probably would be better served, long term, by delaying sex.

Sure, but that's nearly impossible to justify legally, and that's before we start talking about enforcement. What sort of punishment does a judge give out to two thirteen year olds who have sex while their parents are out of town? Do we sentence them to juvenile detention? Do we force them to go through counseling? Do we put them in the system as sex offenders?

 

[Rhea]

I will still be a big fan of waiting for sex.

I was young once and had a lot of friends and saw a lot of break ups and their effects--long term, and short term. The break ups were much worse if the relationship had involved sexual intercourse. By 'worse' I mean: longer periods of depression, some negative physical health consequences, drop in school achievement, once or twice, abuse of alcohol and/or drugs post break up and an increased risk of physical abuse, as well as emotional abuse--from the ex.

The young women I am thinking of were beautiful, very intelligent, very stable young women with firm goals and plans and talent and drive to achieve their goals, as well as loving, supportive families. Eventually, they got themselves back on track, but one took some very scary detours along the way and others experienced significant delays in achieving their educational and career goals. Not because they were shamed or ashamed. But because of the pain and intensity of the break ups.

It's way worse for girls who lack a stable, loving family structure to shore them up when they are struggling.

I'm not sure of the time frame you're discussing... early 2000s? 1980s? But I would submit that the pain of the break-up is more intense when there is an _expectation_ of commitment from sex. The kind that comes from a culture that assigns sexual activity with pregnancy risk and permanent commitment. And I would submit that is an extrinsic cultural artifact, not in intrinsic gender based one.

Based on _my_ personal experience, which is apparently different from yours, I would say there is not a pat blanket answer that indicates women should wait for sex because they are too weak to endure relationships that include it.

 

[thebeave]

I am always thrilled whenever men try to solve the issue of young girls and women and unwanted pregnancy by suggesting something girls and women need to do to reduce the inconvenience of unintended early pregnancies which has the added benefit of requiring zero effort or thought or inconvenience for men and leaves the girls and women available for sex with men. Especially when the same men also argue against free birth control for women.


Two things that also work or have the potential to work:

1. Help girls envision a future fore themselves that includes education and economic security.
2. Develope long acting birth control for males, and make it readily available.

Birth control for either or both genders does not eliminate the risk of STDs nor does it mitigate the negative consequences of early sexual involvement.

I'm coming in on this late and responding to a page-1 post, so I'll work to catch up, but WHOA!!! wanted to respond to this. It seems to advance the idea that girls don't want sex. As I said in my last reply, a lot of the reason girls don't want sex _now_ is the heavy and unbalanced consequence. Take that away and... WOOOOOT!!!! Bring it! I like sex, always have, even as a teen. Why are you trying to keep that away from me? Not understanding.

How you doing?

She's doing the standard "men are big bad bullies" along with the "women are always the helpless victims" meme that is so common these days. It gets old.

 

[Rhea]

I believe that there is a lot more ambiguity about whether or not at least some girls want to have sex or not, and whether or not they want to have sex with a particular boy on a particular occasion under particular circumstances than apparently a lot of guys understand.

I've become confused on the relevance this has to the free long-term reversible birth control program in Colorado.

Several times, you seemed to be saying that you oppose it _because_ it will make girls feel like they have to be available to boys who will exploit them, destroying their ability to think meaningfully about a future due to the negative emotional and social consequences of teen sex.

Then you say you fully support free birth control.

Then you say this again, and it seems to imply that this free birth control will victimize women.

Can you clarify for me? _DO_ you think this free, long-term, reversible birth control should be available to all teens who have reached childbearing age or not?

If you are arguing that there should be ANOTHER thread that argues to ALSO have more extensive sexuality education and condom promotion, could you state that? Because I'm just confused about whether you are talking about two untethered items or whether you are really tethering your approval of the free female birth control to some other agenda and withholding approval if they are not implemented together, or just withholding approval because of the idea of "social and emotional damage" that could result from being a sexually active 16yo?

I am not being snarky, I'm genuinely confused about why these two topics are being discussed as if they conflict.

 

[Rhea]

The fact that girls are getting pregnant, and STIS while still in high school and sometimes younger means that we really ought to quit dicking around and start teaching boys some responsibility and to have higher expectations for boys and girls. Like NOW.

I'm trying to figure out whether you mean that
the girls never want this and we need to teach boys to stop raping them,
or
Condoms are the best birth control so we should make sure boys use them rather than giving IUDs to girls,
or
It's a "higher expectation" to have boys and girls not do sex?


I really just _don't_get_ AT. ALL. this idea that the girls don't want the sex or the more reliable birth control.
I know you said you were all for birth control, then you keep saying the girls shouldn't want it and the boys should expect better of them.

And, truly, I'm stumped.

 

[Rhea]

No, I believe that girls who believe that they can build their own futures will be much more likely to put their future as a higher priority than whatever some random boy is pressuring them into doing. And that they will be more likely to use birth control. And to insist that boys use condoms and avoid STDs and STIS. And have a better future.


Ah, yes: girls just cannot wait to spread their legs, bear every medical, physical and social consequence of early sexual involvement with guys who care only about getting off. This is evidence that they are enlightened.

Who needs birth control? Certainly not boys. Boys don't get pregnant so it's not their problem. After all, girls WANT to have sex with random guys who will dump them and if they are too stupid to use whatever the latest birth control out there exists, then certainly they don't care about their futures so why should the boy? In fact,why waste any time or effort or money into educating girls? Let them pop out as many kids as the boys can manage, and then, if the girls prove themselves worthy and produce sons, maybe some guy will cave and marry her. If not, she can always go to school later.

Toni? This is really insulting. I'm surprised to be reading it.
Wow, talk about shaming girls who actually like sex.


Disappointed.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, I believe that girls who believe that they can build their own futures will be much more likely to put their future as a higher priority than whatever some random boy is pressuring them into doing. And that they will be more likely to use birth control. And to insist that boys use condoms and avoid STDs and STIS. And have a better future.


Ah, yes: girls just cannot wait to spread their legs, bear every medical, physical and social consequence of early sexual involvement with guys who care only about getting off. This is evidence that they are enlightened.

Who needs birth control? Certainly not boys. Boys don't get pregnant so it's not their problem. After all, girls WANT to have sex with random guys who will dump them and if they are too stupid to use whatever the latest birth control out there exists, then certainly they don't care about their futures so why should the boy? In fact,why waste any time or effort or money into educating girls? Let them pop out as many kids as the boys can manage, and then, if the girls prove themselves worthy and produce sons, maybe some guy will cave and marry her. If not, she can always go to school later.

Toni? This is really insulting. I'm surprised to be reading it.
Wow, talk about shaming girls who actually like sex.


Disappointed.

Not to mention the established FACT that teens are fucking idiots, and when hopped up on sex hormones as they generally are, ALL humans are sex crazed maniacs. Nothing 'slutty' about it. It's just a simple fact that puberty happens in the most dangerously irresponsible years of human development.

 

[Rhea]

teens are fucking idiots,

Literally, figuratively AND with "idiots" as either object OR subject.
And there's not a fucking thing wrong with that, IMHO, if protection against pregnancy and, ideally, also against STDs are used.
How about we teach kids that sex is healthy and fun and enjoyable and can express any of pleasure, love, affection, lust or jolly-good-fun.

 

[Rhea]

An interesting analogy, obviously of different degree, but similar type, is the freakishly weird hang-ups that Americans have about holding hands in public. In many countries, this is an expression of companionability, of even casual comradeship. See picture of GW Bush holding Hands with Prince of Saudi. But in America, WHOA!!!! It's only between people who are romantically involved. Handholding among American teens has all this PRESSURE! and MEANING! and emotional baggage!

But it really really is not intrinsic. It's a weird American cultural thing. Puritanical. Don't touch my body unless I'm planning to assent to fucking at some point! Because two guys holding hands is... GAY!!! Because it has to be about sex! Which is about commitment! Always!


Meh, that's not hardwired. Teens (and adults) can be taught that physical displays of affection are not sexual, just like they all understood perfectly well when they were toddlers.

 

[prideandfall]

An interesting analogy, obviously of different degree, but similar type, is the freakishly weird hang-ups that Americans have about holding hands in public.
It's a weird American cultural thing. Puritanical. Don't touch my body unless I'm planning to assent to fucking at some point! Because two guys holding hands is... GAY!!! Because it has to be about sex! Which is about commitment! Always!

is that really any weirder than the american hangup about kissing people of both genders in greeting? in france, everyone kisses each other right there in public!
is that really any weirder than in saudi the hangup their have about a woman having her head uncovered? you're suggesting that's NOT puritanical?
different countries all have their weird stupid taboos, and while baffling i don't think you can single one out and go "that's why sex is weird in that country."

one other thing people keep saying in this thread that is really just baffling the shit out of me... (rhea, this isn't directed at you, this is a completely independent side-thought)
were all of you nebbish antisocial outcasts your entire teen years? did none of you have a relationship or fall in love in your mid teens?
the emotional damage of a breakup has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the raging hormonal cocktail stampeding through your brain combined with a lack of cynical jaded numbness brought on by experience to cause love to come on fast and be the most intense thing you've ever felt.
sure, throwing sex into the mix can heighten that because it often coincides with being a new physical activity alongside all the other stuff raging inside your head, but it's not "sex is eeeeevil" that's the issue here it's "being a teenager is massively fucked up emotionally and nobody fucking does anything to help."

you want to help teens avoid the emotional damage of a breakup? wonder of wonders try this: instead of belittling them and telling them they're just a kid and have no idea what love is, try being sympathetic and actually HELPING THEM and BEING SUPPORTIVE like you would for anybody else.

 

[Rhea]

An interesting analogy, obviously of different degree, but similar type, is the freakishly weird hang-ups that Americans have about holding hands in public.
It's a weird American cultural thing. Puritanical. Don't touch my body unless I'm planning to assent to fucking at some point! Because two guys holding hands is... GAY!!! Because it has to be about sex! Which is about commitment! Always!

is that really any weirder than the american hangup about kissing people of both genders in greeting? in france, everyone kisses each other right there in public!
is that really any weirder than in saudi the hangup their have about a woman having her head uncovered? you're suggesting that's NOT puritanical?
different countries all have their weird stupid taboos, and while baffling i don't think you can single one out and go "that's why sex is weird in that country."

Completely agree with you.
I don't think "this is what makes America weird" but I do think, "this weirdness contributes to that weirdness in this country, for sure!"
And yes, the puritanical view of Saudis toward women certainly makes their relationships fraught with stuff it doesn't need to be fraught with - namely, in their case - the idea that a women raped is a woman ruined and the suicides that result from being the victim of a crime.

one other thing people keep saying in this thread that is really just baffling the shit out of me... (rhea, this isn't directed at you, this is a completely independent side-thought)
were all of you nebbish antisocial outcasts your entire teen years? did none of you have a relationship or fall in love in your mid teens?
the emotional damage of a breakup has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the raging hormonal cocktail stampeding through your brain combined with a lack of cynical jaded numbness brought on by experience to cause love to come on fast and be the most intense thing you've ever felt.
sure, throwing sex into the mix can heighten that because it often coincides with being a new physical activity alongside all the other stuff raging inside your head, but it's not "sex is eeeeevil" that's the issue here it's "being a teenager is massively fucked up emotionally and nobody fucking does anything to help."

Not me. I had a joyous romp through teenagerhood. My parents were completely detached and I pretty much did whatever I wanted. Lots and LOTS of stupid things, but none of them emotionally destructive to me. Breakups, sure, but they passed and I moved on.

you want to help teens avoid the emotional damage of a breakup? wonder of wonders try this: instead of belittling them and telling them they're just a kid and have no idea what love is, try being sympathetic and actually HELPING THEM and BEING SUPPORTIVE like you would for anybody else.

I think it also helps to prepare them for upcoming emotions and help them know it is not weird, abnormal, outlandish or wrong to feel any of those feels. When they know about things in advance, they are less shocked and unbalanced at the arrival of the things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Quit it with the numbers. Contraception makes women into sluts, that's all you need to know. Quit questioning God's plan!

You're being unfair. I'm sure neither laughing dog nor Toni base their arguments on God's plan. I too find it hard to see the practical difference between their position and the position of those who do, though.

No, I'm not being unfair. God works in mysterious ways. So what if they don't know they are agents of God's plan?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Toni? This is really insulting. I'm surprised to be reading it.
Wow, talk about shaming girls who actually like sex.


Disappointed.

Not to mention the established FACT that teens are fucking idiots

Quoted for truth.

 

[arkirk]

Put young teen aged girls in special jails...till they are old enough and have a sponsor who will pay their way. Seriously why are we asking this question. We have a nation full of fanatics who insist on all sorts of screwball prohibitions of a woman's right to control her own reproductive potential. They fight education, and also access to the answer to this question. Get rid of right wing wing nut screwballs and the other problem goes away.

 

[arkirk]

You're being unfair. I'm sure neither laughing dog nor Toni base their arguments on God's plan. I too find it hard to see the practical difference between their position and the position of those who do, though.

No, I'm not being unfair. God works in mysterious ways. So what if they don't know they are agents of God's plan?

Which of your screwball gods are you talking about this time? The market? The highschool tea party god of shrunken pussies and impotent penises...the vendors of salt peter and fairy stories? Cmon Loren, we have seen your gods at work and they are easily as big idiots as teenagers could ever be.