If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

And if the fetus is a person why is abortion in case of rape/incest permitted? Would she be allowed to go kill her attacker? Thus it must not be a person--but in that case why is the state regulating it in the first place??

 

[excreationist]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

 

[TomC]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

I've long believed that every "rape response kit" should include a morning after pill and the victim strongly encouraged to take it.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's what Elon Musk says. I tend to agree with him.

No one, not even Elon Musk, should be inside the doctor's office, standing between a woman and her doctor. Late-term is a red herring.

What I think is abhorrently immoral are lawmakers that pass legislation or judges that make court rulings or Attorney Generals that target women seeking health care that ensures that women will require being too close to death to get health care services to ensure they don't die.

Passing and enforcing laws that risk the life of women can be said to be misogynistic and attempt of murder. What affliction can a man suffer from that a hospital would have to turn him away?

 

[Toni]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

I've long believed that every "rape response kit" should include a morning after pill and the victim strongly encouraged to take it.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.
Tom

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

 

[TomC]

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

So, what problem do you have with making them available and encouraging use?
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

So, what problem do you have with making them available and encouraging use?
Tom

I can't imagine "encouraging" its use. Make it available, yes, but the only thing a rape victim should be encouraged to do is to heal.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.

I wouldn't dare imagine what is going through the mind of such a victim and what they consider "potential trauma" and the priorities they need to see to and in what order. That is why we have social workers.

 

[Toni]

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

So, what problem do you have with making them available and encouraging use?
Tom

I don’t! Just the notion that It’s that simple. Maybe I misunderstood you but I can see how some people would think: oh oh— what do you mean you didn’t take it the first 24 hrs after you were ‘raped?’ And what if it’s not effective, as occasionally it is not? The fetus is generally non-viable which is a problem if the thinking is that she has to be on the verge of death for a D&C.

I realize I took it to an extreme from your statement but these are the times we live in…

 

[Elixir]

I realize I took it to an extreme from your statement but these are the times we live in…

I think it useful, and maybe our duty, to consider the extremes, no matter how unlikely.

Electing to abort a healthy, viable fetus is an extreme that virtually never happens, but it’s possible. So we have people advocating for legislation banning it, even knowing that the extreme fetus advocates will use such legislation to kill prospective mothers.

 

[Toni]

I realize I took it to an extreme from your statement but these are the times we live in…

I think it useful, and maybe our duty, to consider the extremes, no matter how unlikely.

Electing to abort a healthy, viable fetus is an extreme that virtually never happens, but it’s possible. So we have people advocating for legislation banning it, even knowing that the extreme fetus advocates will use such legislation to kill prospective mothers.

Because the prospective mothers are only women, after all. The fetus might be male.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

I've long believed that every "rape response kit" should include a morning after pill and the victim strongly encouraged to take it.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.
Tom

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

Unless you're a religious nut or have fallen for what the religious nuts say there's nothing wrong with plan B. It is not an abortion. The downside to taking it is tiny compared to what she's been through, the upside is considerable. Thus it should be provided and suggested to be used.

 

[Toni]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

. Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

I've long believed that every "rape response kit" should include a morning after pill and the victim strongly encouraged to take it.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.
Tom

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

Unless you're a religious nut or have fallen for what the religious nuts say there's nothing wrong with plan B. It is not an abortion. The downside to taking it is tiny compared to what she's been through, the upside is considerable. Thus it should be provided and suggested to be used.

1. Have you ever been raped? I'm guessing the answer is no. It's extremely traumatic, extremely overwhelming, extremely difficult to acknowledge or deal with yourself, much less to have to go through explanations with authorities, doctors, etc. It can be so traumatic that women do not even acknowledge that it was rape although they will say they didn't want it, they said No, they tried to get away, etc. and were forced.
2. I KNOW bloody well what the morning after pill is and what it's used for. Have you ever sat in a doctor's exam room and discussed whether or not you should take the med to prevent an unintended pregnancy? I have. It's not that straightforward and simple, even if the reason you might need it is because a condom broke or wasn't utilized and not because you were just sexually assaulted.
3. It is not always 100% effective. Occasionally an egg is fertilized and implants, despite the steps taken to prevent this. However, the pregnancy will not develop into a normal fetus and you may not have a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). In my state: not a problem. Yet. In some other states, to bad so sad: you'll just have to tough out whatever comes your way and if it's sepsis and it gets too bad and we can save you we might save you. Or not.

I really really really dislike the whole stay in your lane thing but you are not an obstetrician and you are not a woman and you have never and will never ever ever ever face any such decisions so please just quit trying to tell me that I'm wrong. I'm not. You are. STFU.

 

[Rhea]

Unless you're a religious nut or have fallen for what the religious nuts say there's nothing wrong with plan B. It is not an abortion.

Dude, these poeple get raped, too, you know.

Have it in the kit, available. Say it’s available and what it does.
But no need to “suggest its use” at that partuclar moment in time, is what toni is saying.

 

[Elixir]

I'm just unsure whether the killing is ethical when it is just a matter of the pregnancy being an inconvenience (and it isn't a case of rape or incest, etc).

out of curiosity, do you think it is ethical to kill the baby that’s the product of rape?

. Yes so that the pregnancy doesn't further traumatize the victim. Though an abortion could be pretty traumatic too.

I've long believed that every "rape response kit" should include a morning after pill and the victim strongly encouraged to take it.

Just get that potential trauma right off the table ASAP.
Tom

But the morning after pill is not always 100% effective. Expecting a rape victim to make a difficult decision ( for some) within 24 hours of being raped is not reasonable.

Unless you're a religious nut or have fallen for what the religious nuts say there's nothing wrong with plan B. It is not an abortion. The downside to taking it is tiny compared to what she's been through, the upside is considerable. Thus it should be provided and suggested to be used.

1. Have you ever been raped? I'm guessing the answer is no. It's extremely traumatic, extremely overwhelming, extremely difficult to acknowledge or deal with yourself, much less to have to go through explanations with authorities, doctors, etc. It can be so traumatic that women do not even acknowledge that it was rape although they will say they didn't want it, they said No, they tried to get away, etc. and were forced.
2. I KNOW bloody well what the morning after pill is and what it's used for. Have you ever sat in a doctor's exam room and discussed whether or not you should take the med to prevent an unintended pregnancy? I have. It's not that straightforward and simple, even if the reason you might need it is because a condom broke or wasn't utilized and not because you were just sexually assaulted.
3. It is not always 100% effective. Occasionally an egg is fertilized and implants, despite the steps taken to prevent this. However, the pregnancy will not develop into a normal fetus and you may not have a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). In my state: not a problem. Yet. In some other states, to bad so sad: you'll just have to tough out whatever comes your way and if it's sepsis and it gets too bad and we can save you we might save you. Or not.

I really really really dislike the whole stay in your lane thing but you are not an obstetrician and you are not a woman and you have never and will never ever ever ever face any such decisions so please just quit trying to tell me that I'm wrong. I'm not. You are. STFU.

It’s hard for me to even read this thread.
I’ve never been raped and never had to deal with rape. I have never had an abortion either. But I have been the partner of someone who had more than one or two, all due to medical necessity.
There is no possible law that is going to do anything but harm, to someone in that situation. I suspect that laws governing rape victims’ treatment of resulting pregnancies are similarly harmful, as is typical of laws born of religious superstition.

 

[aupmanyav]

"If the baby can survive outside the womb, is abortion 'murder'?

Yes. IMHO, it is murder irrespective of whether it can survive or not outside the womb.
I go with the conditions given by the government of India and one is, "It is OK in case of pregnancy due to rape".
There are other medical conditions as well, danger to mother's life, abnormality in child or failure of contraceptives.

 

[Shadowy Man]

"If the baby can survive outside the womb, is abortion 'murder'?

Yes. IMHO, it is murder irrespective of whether it can survive or not outside the womb.
I go with the conditions given by the government of India and one is, "It is OK in case of pregnancy due to rape".
There are other medical conditions as well, danger to mother's life, abnormality in child or failure of contraceptives.

If it’s about the morality of killing babies, Why would baby killing be ok if conceived by rape?

 

[aupmanyav]

If it’s about the morality of killing babies, Why would baby killing be ok if conceived by rape?

It is not at all about morality, it is about practicality.
There is no single morality. That depends on the society (and religion).
Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who raped her?

 

[bilby]

If it’s about the morality of killing babies, Why would baby killing be ok if conceived by rape?

It is not at all about morality, it is about practicality.
There is no single morality. That depends on the society (and religion).
Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who raped her?

Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who didn't?

(Oh, and religions can butt the fuck out. They have no right to dictate anything to anyone).

 

[aupmanyav]

Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who didn't?

(Oh, and religions can butt the fuck out. They have no right to dictate anything to anyone).

They should have been careful. It is a life right from conception and extinguishing it is murder (unless permissible in law).
Cheat the law and you are liable for prosecution.
Indian is secular and democratic, religion does not interfere in its working.
The people whom we choose to make laws have a right - 'vox populi, vox dei' (so to say).

 

[bilby]

Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who didn't?

(Oh, and religions can butt the fuck out. They have no right to dictate anything to anyone).

They should have been careful. It is a life right from conception and extinguishing it is murder.

Then it's unacceptable even in the case of rape. The fetus didn't commit rape; It's insane to pass a death sentence against an innocent third party.

Cheat the law and you are liable for prosecution.

But do nothing, and you are liable for execution because your father was a criminal? What kind of shit is that?

Indian is secular and democratic, religion does not interfere in its working.

I suspect you genuinely believe that. It's an excellent example of doublethink.

The people whom we choose to make laws have a right - 'vox populi, vox dei' (so to say).

They don't have a right to be evil and irrational.