In Free Will, What Makes it "Free"

[DBT]

I have said many times that it only allows the possibility for free will, not equates to free will.

Sometimes you say that, and sometimes you go further, a lot further.

Well they don't have so many other functions that they would need in order to make a choice that can be free. They may have the freedom but nothing else.

A choice, any choice does not pop into existence like virtual particles. Decision making is directly related to a set of criteria and the hardware and software that enables decisions to be made, neural networks and memory function.

Non determined quantum events are neither the decision making mechanism, neural networks, or the memory function that, with the activity of the neural network, weighs options in terms of gain and loss.


The decision making process is neither random or non deterministic.

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Which is exactly what occasional limited free will would look like.

Therefore any species of animal or information processor, being composed of quantum wave/particles, would possess free will...yet the brain of each and every species of animal produces a range of behaviour that is specific to that type of brain and that species. Most animals not being moral agents, or even appear to care about anything beyond their own needs and wants.

 

[Juma]

Maybe. Higly unlikely and if happens has nothing to do with free will, just random differences.

Which is exactly what occasional limited free will would look like.

No. That exactly what occasional random weird behavior would look like. Somewhat like weird tics.

 

[ryan]

Sometimes you say that, and sometimes you go further, a lot further.

I tried very hard to drive that into you all. For some reason, it gets forgotten very quickly.

Well they don't have so many other functions that they would need in order to make a choice that can be free. They may have the freedom but nothing else.

A choice, any choice does not pop into existence like virtual particles. Decision making is directly related to a set of criteria and the hardware and software that enables decisions to be made, neural networks and memory function.

Non determined quantum events are neither the decision making mechanism, neural networks, or the memory function that, with the activity of the neural network, weighs options in terms of gain and loss.

The decision making process is neither random or non deterministic.

We don't know for sure if the twins would eventually make different choices due to QM, and you are avoiding this like a disease.

We can skip all of this determinable versus undeterminable talk if you would just answer the question. My thought experiment is what this whole discussion comes down to. Just say "no", and then I can corner you - oops - I meant: and then we can move on.

Which is exactly what occasional limited free will would look like.

Therefore any species of animal or information processor, being composed of quantum wave/particles, would possess free will...yet the brain of each and every species of animal produces a range of behaviour that is specific to that type of brain and that species. Most animals not being moral agents, or even appear to care about anything beyond their own needs and wants.

Yes, they may have more free will than us with regards to moral behavior. We are constrained by the moral part of our consciousness. But maybe sometime when we were developing we chose morals that we want to live by in the future that eventually become "hardwired".

 

[ryan]

Which is exactly what occasional limited free will would look like.

No. That exactly what occasional random weird behavior would look like. Somewhat like weird tics.

You did not say maybe to tics. My question was about choices that QM would affect.

 

[Juma]

No. That exactly what occasional random weird behavior would look like. Somewhat like weird tics.

You did not say maybe to tics. My question was about choices that QM would affect.

Yes? I mean that. It would result in odd random behaviour. Like suddenly rising your arm etc.

Changing your mind and want to do stuff you didnt want to one second earlier.

In short: not free will at all.

 

[ryan]

You did not say maybe to tics. My question was about choices that QM would affect.

Yes? I mean that. It would result in odd random behaviour. Like suddenly rising your arm etc.

Changing your mind and want to do stuff you didnt want to one second earlier.

In short: not free will at all.

Well that's such a specific and detailed possibility that appears to have only been made to suit your argument.

If QM effects happen in decision making more often than you think, then your argument is dead.

 

[NobleSavage]

I've never been able to pay attention to a free will discussion for more than 5 minutes. Am I missing anything?

Yeah man, like, you missed the first valid proof of free will in existence. You just have to read the whole thread to understand it.

I've never been able to pay attention to a free will discussion for more than 5 minutes. Am I missing anything?

Sorry, this class is full.

I've never been able to pay attention to a free will discussion for more than 5 minutes. Am I missing anything?

You are missing your 'free will' - otherwise you could 'choose otherwise' - you could choose to be absolutely enthralled with free will discussions and not be able to take your eyes off the page for a second.

This is a slow lazy long holiday weekend for me. I might just watch that Sam Harris talk on free will.

 

[Juma]

Yes? I mean that. It would result in odd random behaviour. Like suddenly rising your arm etc.

Changing your mind and want to do stuff you didnt want to one second earlier.

In short: not free will at all.

Well that's such a specific and detailed possibility that appears to have only been made to suit your argument.

If QM effects happen in decision making more often than you think, then your argument is dead.

Yes. If QM effects happen in my decisionmaking i would have crashed while driving long ago, and probably be dead...

But really is this all you have? Questions about what would happen if QM effects had impact on decisionmaking... You have not presented a single own thought about how it would work.

Thanks for this walk-over win.

 

[ryan]

Well that's such a specific and detailed possibility that appears to have only been made to suit your argument.

If QM effects happen in decision making more often than you think, then your argument is dead.

Yes. If QM effects happen in my decisionmaking i would have crashed while driving long ago, and probably be dead...

You/(your quantum mechanical decision) may not have wanted to crash.

But really is this all you have? Questions about what would happen if QM effects had impact on decisionmaking... You have not presented a single own thought about how it would work.

Thanks for this walk-over win.

I have only been talking about how it would work. So yes, all I have is what I have been talking about in at least a 100 posts.

 

[Juma]

Yes. If QM effects happen in my decisionmaking i would have crashed while driving long ago, and probably be dead...

You/(your quantum mechanical decision) may not have wanted to crash.

But really is this all you have? Questions about what would happen if QM effects had impact on decisionmaking... You have not presented a single own thought about how it would work.

Thanks for this walk-over win.

I have only been talking about how it would work. So yes, all I have is what I have been talking about in at least a 100 posts.

Point to any post of yours that explains the details of how QM resukts in free will. How the neurons uses these effects. How the particles interact with the neurons. Details .

 

[ryan]

You/(your quantum mechanical decision) may not have wanted to crash.

But really is this all you have? Questions about what would happen if QM effects had impact on decisionmaking... You have not presented a single own thought about how it would work.

Thanks for this walk-over win.

I have only been talking about how it would work. So yes, all I have is what I have been talking about in at least a 100 posts.

How the neurons uses these effects. How the particles interact with the neurons. Details .

There are many examples; find them.

Assuming that you won't bother to find them, I will explain it one more time in hopes to save another 100 posts from littering cyberspace.

Imagine what kind of chain reaction one particle's nondeterministic behavior has on any system given enough time. Now imagine the difference that every particle's nondeterministic behavior has on your system over time.

It is obvious, at least to me, that such a delicate and intricate system such as the brain would be greatly influenced by the collective nondeterministic behaviors of all of its particles over time.

 

[Juma]

You/(your quantum mechanical decision) may not have wanted to crash.

But really is this all you have? Questions about what would happen if QM effects had impact on decisionmaking... You have not presented a single own thought about how it would work.

Thanks for this walk-over win.

I have only been talking about how it would work. So yes, all I have is what I have been talking about in at least a 100 posts.

How the neurons uses these effects. How the particles interact with the neurons. Details .

There are many examples; find them.

Assuming that you won't bother to find them, I will explain it one more time in hopes to save another 100 posts from littering cyberspace.

Imagine what kind of chain reaction one particle's nondeterministic behavior has on any system given enough time. Now imagine the difference that every particle's nondeterministic behavior has on your system over time.

It is obvious, at least to me, that such a delicate and intricate system such as the brain would be greatly influenced by the collective nondeterministic behaviors of all of its particles over time.

What "chain reaction"? What reaction? You havent explained a shit! You just asks me to imagine...

By now i am pretty sure you have exactly nothing.
Bye.

 

[ryan]

What "chain reaction"? What reaction? You havent explained a shit! You just asks me to imagine...

By now i am pretty sure you have exactly nothing.
Bye.

Like a butterfly effect, each particle's action may amplify over time - all particles could do this all of the time!

 

[bilby]

What "chain reaction"? What reaction? You havent explained a shit! You just asks me to imagine...

By now i am pretty sure you have exactly nothing.
Bye.

Like a butterfly effect, each particle's action may amplify over time - all particles could do this all of the time!

Ooooh! Do we get to make up wild fantasies about what might happen??

So much more fun than boring old reality.

Each particle's action MAY amplify over time, and as long as we don't check to see if they DO, we can build a whole structure of beliefs on this foundation.

But be careful! If you accidentally find out that your premise is a stinking pile of horseshit, the whole thing could come crashing down. You need to maintain your quantum uncertainty at all times!

Have fun!

 

[ryan]

Like a butterfly effect, each particle's action may amplify over time - all particles could do this all of the time!

Ooooh! Do we get to make up wild fantasies about what might happen??

So much more fun than boring old reality.

Each particle's action MAY amplify over time, and as long as we don't check to see if they DO, we can build a whole structure of beliefs on this foundation.

But be careful! If you accidentally find out that your premise is a stinking pile of horseshit, the whole thing could come crashing down. You need to maintain your quantum uncertainty at all times!

Have fun!

At least you understand what I am saying even though you seem to be adding some of your own twists to make room for the insults. You are my least favorite student, but at least you get it.

 

[bilby]

Ooooh! Do we get to make up wild fantasies about what might happen??

So much more fun than boring old reality.

Each particle's action MAY amplify over time, and as long as we don't check to see if they DO, we can build a whole structure of beliefs on this foundation.

But be careful! If you accidentally find out that your premise is a stinking pile of horseshit, the whole thing could come crashing down. You need to maintain your quantum uncertainty at all times!

Have fun!

At least you understand what I am saying even though you seem to be adding some of your own twists to make room for the insults. You are my least favorite student, but at least you get it.

I understand what you are saying, but not why you are saying it. Fiction is fun up to a point, but when anything is possible, everything is boring.

I do not seek your favour, and I am certainly not your student.

 

[DBT]

What "chain reaction"? What reaction? You havent explained a shit! You just asks me to imagine...

By now i am pretty sure you have exactly nothing.
Bye.

Like a butterfly effect, each particle's action may amplify over time - all particles could do this all of the time!

So what? It's not by any form of choice or conscious manipulation in favour of one's desires, not even unconscious manipulation, which makes it irrelevant in relation to decision making and your so called free will.....which is nothing more than the experience of 'will' that's shaped and formed by the brain. A conscious experience that becomes skewed with chemical imbalances and disintegrates with memory function loss.

 

[DBT]

We don't know for sure if the twins would eventually make different choices due to QM, and you are avoiding this like a disease.

I've not avoided anything whatsoever.

I have repeatedly pointed out that it is the structural/informational state of a brain that determines output/ conscious experience, decision making, etc, in the instance it occurs (neural activity)...therefore anything that acts upon the system (whether external inputs or internal changes in condition) alters the system in some way, and thereby alters the decision making process and consequently our conscious experience of making decisions.

If QM alters the system in some way, it will alter experience, but not in a controlled way or a way that was willed or chosen...therefore irrelevant as an argument for 'free will''

This is what you continue to ignore.

 

[ryan]

At least you understand what I am saying even though you seem to be adding some of your own twists to make room for the insults. You are my least favorite student, but at least you get it.

I understand what you are saying, but not why you are saying it. Fiction is fun up to a point, but when anything is possible, everything is boring.

I do not seek your favour, and I am certainly not your student.

I suppose you aren't my student anymore. You have graduated!

 

[ryan]

We don't know for sure if the twins would eventually make different choices due to QM, and you are avoiding this like a disease.

I've not avoided anything whatsoever.

I have repeatedly pointed out that it is the structural/informational state of a brain that determines output/ conscious experience, decision making, etc, in the instance it occurs (neural activity)...therefore anything that acts upon the system (whether external inputs or internal changes in condition) alters the system in some way, and thereby alters the decision making process and consequently our conscious experience of making decisions.

If QM alters the system in some way, it will alter experience, but not in a controlled way or a way that was willed or chosen...therefore irrelevant as an argument for 'free will''

QM is the system - all of its seemingly classical expressions and fundamental quantum expressions makeup what we are consciously. We wouldn't experience these quantum effects because we are these quantum effects. Quantum "weirdness" is mostly what we are mechanically. There is no classical mechanics; CM is just an artifact of accepted ignorance, ignorance that was quite justified I should add.