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India on strike

PyramidHead

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This week, 150 million Indians went on strike to protest Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s anti-trade union policies.

Since India won independence in 1947, it has pursued a “mixed” path of national development. Important sections of the economy remained in government hands, with public sector firms formed to deliver essential industrial goods to enhance the development goals of the country. The agricultural sector was also organized so that the government provided credit to farmers at subsidized rates and the government set procurement prices to ensure that farmers continued to grow essential food crops.

All this changed in 1991, when the government began to “liberalize” the economy, privatize the public sector, reduce its role in the agricultural market and welcome foreign investment. Growth was now premised on the rate of return on financial investment and not on the investment in people and their futures. The new policy orientation—liberalization—has grown the middle class and earned the wealthy fabulous amounts of money. But it has also created an agrarian crisis and produced a precarious situation for workers.

The government, since 1991, knew that it was not enough to privatize the public sector and to sell off precious public assets to private hands. It had to do two more things.

First, it had to make sure that public sector enterprises would fail and would then lose legitimacy. The government starved these public sector firms of funds and watched them swing in the wind. Without investment, these firms were unable to make improvements and so began to deteriorate. Their demise validated the argument of liberalization, although their demise had been manufactured by an investment strike.

Second, the government pushed to break trade union power by using the courts to undermine the right to strike and by using the legislature to amend the trade union laws. Weaker unions would mean demoralized workers, which would mean that workers would now be utterly at the mercy of the private firms.

(This is why "just start your own worker-managed cooperative and see if it catches on" is not a valid nor comprehensive response to the lack of democracy in the workplace. It assumes a leveled playing field that has not been skewed by state policies that favor private investment and the concentration of wealth. Economic and social systems do not compete with one another in a vacuum.)
 
(This is why "just start your own worker-managed cooperative and see if it catches on" is not a valid nor comprehensive response to the lack of democracy in the workplace. It assumes a leveled playing field that has not been skewed by state policies that favor private investment and the concentration of wealth. Economic and social systems do not compete with one another in a vacuum.)

In order for people to be happy and “self-actuality’s”, we must FORCE them to do the thing they don’t want to do, and thus FORCE them to be happy! We can’t take the risk that people won’t voluntarily do these things that we are convinced are better for them. They don’t know these things are better for them, they’re all wrapped up in pursuing what they think they want to realize that this is what they really want. We must Make this the only possible option whether they want it or not. Once they have no choices, they will be TRULY FREE!

Only in god can you find salvation...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
(This is why "just start your own worker-managed cooperative and see if it catches on" is not a valid nor comprehensive response to the lack of democracy in the workplace. It assumes a leveled playing field that has not been skewed by state policies that favor private investment and the concentration of wealth. Economic and social systems do not compete with one another in a vacuum.)

In order for people to be happy and “self-actuality’s”, we must FORCE them to do the thing they don’t want to do, and thus FORCE them to be happy! We can’t take the risk that people won’t voluntarily do these things that we are convinced are better for them. They don’t know these things are better for them, they’re all wrapped up in pursuing what they think they want to realize that this is what they really want. We must Make this the only possible option whether they want it or not. Once they have no choices, they will be TRULY FREE!

Only in god can you find salvation...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you sure you're in the right thread? This one is about 150 million people going on strike.
 
This week, 150 million Indians went on strike to protest Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s anti-trade union policies.

Since India won independence in 1947, it has pursued a “mixed” path of national development. Important sections of the economy remained in government hands, with public sector firms formed to deliver essential industrial goods to enhance the development goals of the country. The agricultural sector was also organized so that the government provided credit to farmers at subsidized rates and the government set procurement prices to ensure that farmers continued to grow essential food crops.

All this changed in 1991, when the government began to “liberalize” the economy, privatize the public sector, reduce its role in the agricultural market and welcome foreign investment. Growth was now premised on the rate of return on financial investment and not on the investment in people and their futures. The new policy orientation—liberalization—has grown the middle class and earned the wealthy fabulous amounts of money. But it has also created an agrarian crisis and produced a precarious situation for workers.

The government, since 1991, knew that it was not enough to privatize the public sector and to sell off precious public assets to private hands. It had to do two more things.

First, it had to make sure that public sector enterprises would fail and would then lose legitimacy. The government starved these public sector firms of funds and watched them swing in the wind. Without investment, these firms were unable to make improvements and so began to deteriorate. Their demise validated the argument of liberalization, although their demise had been manufactured by an investment strike.

Second, the government pushed to break trade union power by using the courts to undermine the right to strike and by using the legislature to amend the trade union laws. Weaker unions would mean demoralized workers, which would mean that workers would now be utterly at the mercy of the private firms.

(This is why "just start your own worker-managed cooperative and see if it catches on" is not a valid nor comprehensive response to the lack of democracy in the workplace. It assumes a leveled playing field that has not been skewed by state policies that favor private investment and the concentration of wealth. Economic and social systems do not compete with one another in a vacuum.)

Well, employee owned/managed firms are gaining favor in the US. My wife worked for a very successful one (Winco) for many years. She loved it there. Employeed owned companies have pluses and minuses. Many workers choose a steady 40 hours a week job vs being an owner. If you don't force a system on everyone, some will choose employee owned, others will choose something else that fits them. Where's the harm?
 
This week, 150 million Indians went on strike to protest Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s anti-trade union policies.

Since India won independence in 1947, it has pursued a “mixed” path of national development. Important sections of the economy remained in government hands, with public sector firms formed to deliver essential industrial goods to enhance the development goals of the country. The agricultural sector was also organized so that the government provided credit to farmers at subsidized rates and the government set procurement prices to ensure that farmers continued to grow essential food crops.

All this changed in 1991, when the government began to “liberalize” the economy, privatize the public sector, reduce its role in the agricultural market and welcome foreign investment. Growth was now premised on the rate of return on financial investment and not on the investment in people and their futures. The new policy orientation—liberalization—has grown the middle class and earned the wealthy fabulous amounts of money. But it has also created an agrarian crisis and produced a precarious situation for workers.

The government, since 1991, knew that it was not enough to privatize the public sector and to sell off precious public assets to private hands. It had to do two more things.

First, it had to make sure that public sector enterprises would fail and would then lose legitimacy. The government starved these public sector firms of funds and watched them swing in the wind. Without investment, these firms were unable to make improvements and so began to deteriorate. Their demise validated the argument of liberalization, although their demise had been manufactured by an investment strike.

Second, the government pushed to break trade union power by using the courts to undermine the right to strike and by using the legislature to amend the trade union laws. Weaker unions would mean demoralized workers, which would mean that workers would now be utterly at the mercy of the private firms.

(This is why "just start your own worker-managed cooperative and see if it catches on" is not a valid nor comprehensive response to the lack of democracy in the workplace. It assumes a leveled playing field that has not been skewed by state policies that favor private investment and the concentration of wealth. Economic and social systems do not compete with one another in a vacuum.)

Highly biased source.

Reality: India saw how much it's economy was suffering under it's socialist approach. There's no need to break the public sector enterprises, simply allowing honest competition will do so as the public sector enterprises are saddled with the same flaws that were holding back the economy. "Starving them of funds" is a clear indication they weren't competitive in the first place, they shouldn't need propping up.
 
Well, employee owned/managed firms are gaining favor in the US. My wife worked for a very successful one (Winco) for many years. She loved it there. Employeed owned companies have pluses and minuses. Many workers choose a steady 40 hours a week job vs being an owner. If you don't force a system on everyone, some will choose employee owned, others will choose something else that fits them. Where's the harm?

No harm at all, where did you and Emily get the idea that I was in favor of depriving people of that choice? My only beef is, as usual, with the idea that the current landscape of private interests and government policy is fair enough to make that a real choice. If people are choosing between different styles of work, which they should absolutely be able to do, they should be choosing on the basis of their personal traits and what they want for their future. Government action that makes one choice unduly difficult skews the parameters of that decision, and as long as that's true, the success of worker-managed enterprises can't be judged by their performance alone. Many socialists are suspicious of the allure of worker-managed cooperatives because they still arise and operate in a non-socialist market society that rewards accumulation for the sake of profit. I don't know where I fall on that issue, but it's definitely not as simple as declaring a level playing field just because co-ops aren't illegal.
 
Well, employee owned/managed firms are gaining favor in the US. My wife worked for a very successful one (Winco) for many years. She loved it there. Employeed owned companies have pluses and minuses. Many workers choose a steady 40 hours a week job vs being an owner. If you don't force a system on everyone, some will choose employee owned, others will choose something else that fits them. Where's the harm?

No harm at all, where did you and Emily get the idea that I was in favor of depriving people of that choice? My only beef is, as usual, with the idea that the current landscape of private interests and government policy is fair enough to make that a real choice. If people are choosing between different styles of work, which they should absolutely be able to do, they should be choosing on the basis of their personal traits and what they want for their future. Government action that makes one choice unduly difficult skews the parameters of that decision, and as long as that's true, the success of worker-managed enterprises can't be judged by their performance alone. Many socialists are suspicious of the allure of worker-managed cooperatives because they still arise and operate in a non-socialist market society that rewards accumulation for the sake of profit. I don't know where I fall on that issue, but it's definitely not as simple as declaring a level playing field just because co-ops aren't illegal.

Well, I never claimed that it's a level playing field. There's no such thing. But again I favor choice. It the typical system that we find in the west, a mixed capitalist/socialist economy, both capitalist and socialist companies exist. Secondly, I just don't trust the government much. I don't want the government to "make one choice unduly difficult". The US government is completely uncompetent. I am pro regulation. But our government can't even figure out how to pay workers.
 
Well, employee owned/managed firms are gaining favor in the US. My wife worked for a very successful one (Winco) for many years. She loved it there. Employeed owned companies have pluses and minuses. Many workers choose a steady 40 hours a week job vs being an owner. If you don't force a system on everyone, some will choose employee owned, others will choose something else that fits them. Where's the harm?

No harm at all, where did you and Emily get the idea that I was in favor of depriving people of that choice? My only beef is, as usual, with the idea that the current landscape of private interests and government policy is fair enough to make that a real choice. If people are choosing between different styles of work, which they should absolutely be able to do, they should be choosing on the basis of their personal traits and what they want for their future. Government action that makes one choice unduly difficult skews the parameters of that decision, and as long as that's true, the success of worker-managed enterprises can't be judged by their performance alone. Many socialists are suspicious of the allure of worker-managed cooperatives because they still arise and operate in a non-socialist market society that rewards accumulation for the sake of profit. I don't know where I fall on that issue, but it's definitely not as simple as declaring a level playing field just because co-ops aren't illegal.

Well, I never claimed that it's a level playing field. There's no such thing. But again I favor choice. It the typical system that we find in the west, a mixed capitalist/socialist economy, both capitalist and socialist companies exist.
I'll give you a parallel to that line of thinking that might shake you out of looking at it as just a neutral selection of preferred styles of making money. On the left, we view capitalism as just another system of production in the line of those that have been tried and eventually deemed unjust on moral grounds before being replaced by new ones. When a particular system is enjoying its ascendancy and dominance, almost nobody can see its moral failings, so it gets treated like a purely academic or practical matter. I think this is what you are doing here, and in that language, what you say makes sense; why not give people the choice? But in my view, that would be no different from a feudal lord saying that peasants should have the choice of either being subservient to the king or to sell their goods on the market, or a slave owner saying that people should have the choice to either own slaves or do the work themselves. The point is that these ways of arranging society are not like menu items, they carry moral weight and should be analyzed in those terms. I realize you don't agree with the left that there is a moral problem with capitalism, but that's why I believe it's not as simple as giving people a choice and letting the chips fall where they may.

Secondly, I just don't trust the government much. I don't want the government to "make one choice unduly difficult".
I was saying that's what they already do by favoring the interests of capital rather than workers.
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

I’m not aware of anything that makes it hard to form such a company. Maybe it’s a lack of knowledge on my part, so I’d like to hear your perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

I’m not aware of anything that makes it hard to form such a company. Maybe it’s a lack of knowledge on my part, so I’d like to hear your perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In much the same way that voter ID laws are, on paper, a neutral requirement that everybody has to abide by, but in reality are intended to restrict the voting abilities of a specific category of people, many policies enacted ostensibly for other reasons have functioned to skew the economic playing field away from workers' self-management. I'll give a few broad examples.

For one thing, in a workers' self-directed enterprise (or WSDE), no single individual or group is a concentration point of wealth or power. To the extent that concentrated wealth or power in a corporation enables one access to the upper echelons of society where CEOs can have private meetings with senators, this opportunity is not afforded to WSDEs. This may be a minor point, but I think the culture of material wealth carries with it a certain privilege that simply wouldn't arise in democratically organized firms.

Secondly, an advantage of creating WSDEs to replace top-down structures is to allow for a diversity of goals. In a capitalist enterprise, there is one primary goal, profit, to which the others are subservient. In a WSDE, depending on its composition, profit may be a secondary goal, behind others such as work satisfaction or the quality of the final product. Where traditional companies would perhaps be unwilling to settle for less profit in exchange for, say, more leisure time, more domestic jobs staying in the country, better components manufactured locally, and so on, this can largely be traced to the fact that a single individual or board of directors (who do not actually perform the duties involved in production or provision of services) has complete dictatorial control over the surplus value generated by the workers and total ownership of their productive output. This tendency would be attenuated in WSDEs, and as such, they would probably not contribute as much to the GDP as a high-powered capitalist enterprise. There have been some exceptions to this rule, such as the Mandragon cooperative in Basque, but in general there is less incentive to value profit above all other considerations where everyone who has to shoulder the burden of generating the profit is equally in charge of deciding how much to make and what to do with it. As government policies tend to prioritize GDP as a measure of prosperity, WSDEs would be less benefited by these policies to the degree that they are less focused on profit.

Another way that governments act in a manner antithetical to worker control is by weakening the power of unions and directing funds away from the public sector, where unions are more common. This is what happened in India according to the article, and is partly what sparked the outrage among workers (though incidentally, it has come out that the numbers of strikers were vastly exaggerated). Unions are not themselves WSDEs obviously, but they are important institutions of worker influence over the pace and conditions of their jobs, and depowering unions functions as a way of making cooperatives less likely to spring up and flourish.

Finally, the obvious thing that governments could stop doing is to stop violently overthrowing economies that operate on the principle of democratized work. Revolutionary uprisings in which workers seized workplaces, occupied them, and created assemblies and committees to run them democratically, have arisen in Russia, Argentina, Algeria, Greece, Spain, and France over the past couple of centuries, and the usual response by states has been to squash them militarily or economically.

In short: the larger purpose of workers' self-direction is itself a threat to capitalism, and the most powerful states are all committed to furthering capitalism.
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

You are either WAY more talented and energetic than I am or any of my former partners ever were, or you have never tried to grow an employee owned and operated enterprise into a success.
How does the government make it hard? IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE!
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

You are either WAY more talented and energetic than I am or any of my former partners ever were, or you have never tried to grow an employee owned and operated enterprise into a success.
How does the government make it hard? IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE!

Reality is hard. As a normal employee you generally don't see all the obstacles that must be overcome. The government doesn't make it harder on employee-owned businesses, it's just they are more aware of the headaches.
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

You are either WAY more talented and energetic than I am or any of my former partners ever were, or you have never tried to grow an employee owned and operated enterprise into a success.
How does the government make it hard? IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE!
Oh, that way. Yes, perfectly right. On Ms. Lake's behalf, I'll rephrase the question. How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult, above and beyond the ways it makes the rest of private enterprises unduly difficult?
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

You are either WAY more talented and energetic than I am or any of my former partners ever were, or you have never tried to grow an employee owned and operated enterprise into a success.
How does the government make it hard? IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE!
Oh, that way. Yes, perfectly right. On Ms. Lake's behalf, I'll rephrase the question. How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult, above and beyond the ways it makes the rest of private enterprises unduly difficult?

They don't. As a business owner exploring exit options, I wish that creating an ESOP were less expensive and less bureaucratic. But there many appealing aspects of setting up an ESOP also. The fact is that there isn't a grand government conspiracy to stop employee owned companies. The real deal is that running a business is extremely tough. Business owners make hundreds of decisions each day, any one of which could sink the company.
 
How does the government make employee owned enterprise unduly difficult?

I’m not aware of anything that makes it hard to form such a company. Maybe it’s a lack of knowledge on my part, so I’d like to hear your perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In much the same way that voter ID laws are, on paper, a neutral requirement that everybody has to abide by, but in reality are intended to restrict the voting abilities of a specific category of people, many policies enacted ostensibly for other reasons have functioned to skew the economic playing field away from workers' self-management. I'll give a few broad examples.

For one thing, in a workers' self-directed enterprise (or WSDE), no single individual or group is a concentration point of wealth or power. To the extent that concentrated wealth or power in a corporation enables one access to the upper echelons of society where CEOs can have private meetings with senators, this opportunity is not afforded to WSDEs. This may be a minor point, but I think the culture of material wealth carries with it a certain privilege that simply wouldn't arise in democratically organized firms.

Secondly, an advantage of creating WSDEs to replace top-down structures is to allow for a diversity of goals. In a capitalist enterprise, there is one primary goal, profit, to which the others are subservient. In a WSDE, depending on its composition, profit may be a secondary goal, behind others such as work satisfaction or the quality of the final product. Where traditional companies would perhaps be unwilling to settle for less profit in exchange for, say, more leisure time, more domestic jobs staying in the country, better components manufactured locally, and so on, this can largely be traced to the fact that a single individual or board of directors (who do not actually perform the duties involved in production or provision of services) has complete dictatorial control over the surplus value generated by the workers and total ownership of their productive output. This tendency would be attenuated in WSDEs, and as such, they would probably not contribute as much to the GDP as a high-powered capitalist enterprise. There have been some exceptions to this rule, such as the Mandragon cooperative in Basque, but in general there is less incentive to value profit above all other considerations where everyone who has to shoulder the burden of generating the profit is equally in charge of deciding how much to make and what to do with it. As government policies tend to prioritize GDP as a measure of prosperity, WSDEs would be less benefited by these policies to the degree that they are less focused on profit.

Another way that governments act in a manner antithetical to worker control is by weakening the power of unions and directing funds away from the public sector, where unions are more common. This is what happened in India according to the article, and is partly what sparked the outrage among workers (though incidentally, it has come out that the numbers of strikers were vastly exaggerated). Unions are not themselves WSDEs obviously, but they are important institutions of worker influence over the pace and conditions of their jobs, and depowering unions functions as a way of making cooperatives less likely to spring up and flourish.

Finally, the obvious thing that governments could stop doing is to stop violently overthrowing economies that operate on the principle of democratized work. Revolutionary uprisings in which workers seized workplaces, occupied them, and created assemblies and committees to run them democratically, have arisen in Russia, Argentina, Algeria, Greece, Spain, and France over the past couple of centuries, and the usual response by states has been to squash them militarily or economically.

In short: the larger purpose of workers' self-direction is itself a threat to capitalism, and the most powerful states are all committed to furthering capitalism.

As long as you don't force it on people, worker's self direction is not a threat to capitalism. The issue here is that you assume that all people agree with you. You assume that everyone doesn't want a boss. Everyone would be comfortable being their own boss. And it just isn't so...
 
...
For one thing, in a workers' self-directed enterprise (or WSDE), no single individual or group is a concentration point of wealth or power. ... This may be a minor point, but I think the culture of material wealth carries with it a certain privilege that simply wouldn't arise in democratically organized firms.

Secondly, an advantage of creating WSDEs to replace top-down structures is to allow for a diversity of goals. ...

Finally, the obvious thing that governments could stop doing is to stop violently overthrowing economies that operate on the principle of democratized work. Revolutionary uprisings in which workers seized workplaces, occupied them, and created assemblies and committees to run them democratically, have arisen in Russia, Argentina, Algeria, Greece, Spain, and France over the past couple of centuries, and the usual response by states has been to squash them militarily or economically.

In short: the larger purpose of workers' self-direction is itself a threat to capitalism, and the most powerful states are all committed to furthering capitalism.

As long as you don't force it on people, worker's self direction is not a threat to capitalism. The issue here is that you assume that all people agree with you. You assume that everyone doesn't want a boss. Everyone would be comfortable being their own boss. And it just isn't so...
Workers' self-direction is not the same thing as worker's self direction -- the placement of the apostrophe makes a difference. Worker's self direction -- being self-employed like a plumber -- is for people who don't want a boss. But what PyramidHead is talking about is not that. He's talking about "workers' self-direction", which is a contradiction in terms since "workers" is not a self. He's using a propaganda phrase to conjure up a pleasant but false image of bosslessness, when what he actually has in mind is evidently democratically organized firms, i.e., you still have a boss, chosen to boss you around by a voting majority of the other workers.

Worker's self-direction is an effective way to allow for a diversity of goals. So-called "workers' self-direction" is too when it's voluntary, like in Mondragon and in American co-ops. But did the compulsory replacement of top-down structures in the revolutionary uprisings PyramidHead admires allow for a diversity of goals? The revolutionaries' goals were imposed on everyone. If you had different goals that were better satisfied in a traditional company, screw you.

(And of course, that's only as long as the revolutionaries actually permit firms to be democratically organized. In practice, for all their talk of "Anarchism", in their guts they care a lot more about equality than about an-arch-y. So as soon as they figure out that some workers' co-ops end up a lot richer than others, and as soon as they figure out that most of the workers who've seized and occupied and democratically run their workplaces and consequently now own the means of production have consequently started thinking like little capitalists, their commitment to anarchy goes out the window and the revolutionaries have suddenly realized that what "workplace democracy" really means is all the workers in the country vote on which revolutionary party gets to be put in charge of appointing all the bosses for all the firms.)
 
Workers' self-direction is not the same thing as worker's self direction -- the placement of the apostrophe makes a difference. Worker's self direction -- being self-employed like a plumber -- is for people who don't want a boss. But what PyramidHead is talking about is not that. He's talking about "workers' self-direction", which is a contradiction in terms since "workers" is not a self. He's using a propaganda phrase to conjure up a pleasant but false image of bosslessness, when what he actually has in mind is evidently democratically organized firms, i.e., you still have a boss, chosen to boss you around by a voting majority of the other workers.

Yeah, the usual fantasy. Never mind that this puts the most charismatic in charge, not the most competent. The qualifications for the job have nothing to do with the skills needed, of course the result is bad. We see it over and over in communist and oligarchical societies.

(And of course, that's only as long as the revolutionaries actually permit firms to be democratically organized. In practice, for all their talk of "Anarchism", in their guts they care a lot more about equality than about an-arch-y. So as soon as they figure out that some workers' co-ops end up a lot richer than others, and as soon as they figure out that most of the workers who've seized and occupied and democratically run their workplaces and consequently now own the means of production have consequently started thinking like little capitalists, their commitment to anarchy goes out the window and the revolutionaries have suddenly realized that what "workplace democracy" really means is all the workers in the country vote on which revolutionary party gets to be put in charge of appointing all the bosses for all the firms.)

Yup, it's about equality--which in practice means hammering down anyone who sticks up. It fails horribly.
 
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