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Institutional Sexism In Veterinary Medicine

Since it shows the proportion of applicants who are admitted, it is a good metric. No metric is prefect.
It may be a good metric for some things, but it is not a good metric for comparing whether MD or vet schools are more difficult to get in. Without knowing the makeup of the applicant body, the mere acceptance rate says nothing about that question.

Excuse me?

I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US. Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.

Don't pick on Harvard. But I do agree that acceptance rate, in and of itself, is not a good metric. If the ratio of applicants to available enrollment is 5 to 1, you expect about a 20% rate. If it's 10 to 1 you'd expect about a 10 % rate. So if there are far fewer vet schools you'd expect a lower acceptance rate just based on the numbers. On the other hand, a 1 in 10 chance is harder than a 1 in 5 chance. So maybe it's not the metric, but what's it's measuring.
 
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Excuse me?

I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US. Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.

Don't pick on Harvard. But I do agree that acceptance rate, in and of itself, is not a good metric. If the ratio of applicants to available enrollment is 5 to 1, you expect about a 20% rate. If it's 10 to 1 you'd expect about a 10 % rate. So if there are far fewer vet schools you'd expect a lower acceptance rate just based on the numbers. On the other hand, a 1 in 10 chance is harder than a 1 in 5 chance. So maybe it's not the metric, but what's it's measuring.

Admissions rates are exactly what is used to measure the selectivity of schools. I didn’t invent this.
 
The acceptance rate shows the proportion of applicants who are accepted divided by the number of applicants.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
A lower acceptance rate indicates that a smaller proportion of people who wish to be accepted into the school are accepted.
Yes. And that's the only thing it indicates really.
It clearer measures the hard difficult it is to be accepted into the institution(s) relative to the pools of applicants.
"Relative to the pool of applicants". Exactly.
That's the problem with it. You need comparable pools of applicants. And if you are comparing different kinds of professional schools, you obviously have very different pools of applicants.

To claim otherwise is to deny both fact and reason.
Well good thing then I never did. I merely pointed out that it was a poor metric for comparing difficulty of getting into MD versus vet schools.
 
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Overall acceptance rate for medical schools in the US is about 18%.

Where are you getting 18%? I am seeing closer to 8% overall acceptance rates at med schools, with only a few above 10% the more selective schools having rates under 2%.

Also, med school applicants are already a smaller and more selective group of college graduates who took the MCAT which is required for med school rather than the far more common and easy GRE, which is what vet schools use. Both tests entail verbal reasoning and verbal skills but the GRE requires little more than that other than very basic geometry and algebra on the Quantitative section. The MCAT requires detailed knowledge and understanding of theories and methods in Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Biochem, Organic-Chem, plus some Psychology and sociology. The MCAT is far more entensive requiring a greater breadth of mastery of tough science subjects, which is why it takes more than twice as long to complete as the GRE. IOW, a non-science major with solid basic reading and writing skills taught in high school could do well on the GRE without any special preparations, whereas they would fail badly on the MCAT.

Vet school admission is still tough, b/c it requires similar science course prerequisites, plus field experience that med school admission doesn't. But vet school applicants are just required to pass those science courses, whereas med school applicants have to be able to also demonstrate minimal mastery and retention of that knowledge, plus knowledge not covered in those courses.

Put another way, even if your suspect acceptance figures are correct, acceptance rates have no meaningful comparison between med and vet school, b/c the other people you are competing against are not from the same pool of the population. Out performing 90% of the people who take the GRE is much easier (requires less skill and preparation) than outperforming 85% of the people who take the MCAT.
 
I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US.
Yes, you did. But those are two different types of professional schools with very different applicant pools. So acceptance rates tell us next to nothing about which one is more difficult to get into for any given individual applicant.

Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.
I assume you are talking undergraduate admissions here. Compared to MD schools vs. vet schools you are dealing with less different applicant pools.
But even regarding undergrad admissions, applicant pools for different schools are somewhat different, reducing the usefulness of comparing acceptance rates. Simply put: an average applicant at Tech is not the same as an average applicant at Harvard. Given how famous Harvard is in popular culture, I am sure they get a lot more "hopeless" application than less famous universities.
Look at it another way. Fort Valley State University and Georgia Tech have the same acceptance rate, 26%. Yet, Fort Valley is much easier to get into. For example, typical SATs are [R/W 380-470, Math 390-470] (i.e., really, really horrible, ~10th-25th percentile) compared to [R/W 640-730, Math 680-770] (i.e. quite good, 90th-99th percentile) for Tech. Harvard has even higher SAT scores, but not nearly as much as acceptance rate would suggest. You get a similar acceptance rate because students applying to Tech vs. Fort Valley are very different from each other, not because these two schools are equally difficult to get into. What you could say is that the average Tech and FV applicants are similar in how they judge their own strength as an applicant. Compared to them, an average Harvard applicant (acceptance rate 5%) has an entirely too high an opinion of themselves. ;)

So, while comparing acceptance rates among undergrad schools is better than what you were doing, average GPA/SAT scores and other objective metrics are much better at gauging your chances of being accepted at either school.
What you would need to do is take the same applicant (say, 3.8 GPA, 3.6 science GPA, 510 MCAT) and compare their changes at a MD school vs. vet school.

Yes, I know colleges like Harvard love to advertise using the acceptance rate. That doesn't make it an objectively good metric.
 
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Overall acceptance rate for medical schools in the US is about 18%.

Where are you getting 18%? I am seeing closer to 8% overall acceptance rates at med schools, with only a few above 10% the more selective schools having rates under 2%.

Also, med school applicants are already a smaller and more selective group of college graduates who took the MCAT which is required for med school rather than the far more common and easy GRE, which is what vet schools use. Both tests entail verbal reasoning and verbal skills but the GRE requires little more than that other than very basic geometry and algebra on the Quantitative section. The MCAT requires detailed knowledge and understanding of theories and methods in Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Biochem, Organic-Chem, plus some Psychology and sociology. The MCAT is far more entensive requiring a greater breadth of mastery of tough science subjects, which is why it takes more than twice as long to complete as the GRE. IOW, a non-science major with solid basic reading and writing skills taught in high school could do well on the GRE without any special preparations, whereas they would fail badly on the MCAT.

Vet school admission is still tough, b/c it requires similar science course prerequisites, plus field experience that med school admission doesn't. But vet school applicants are just required to pass those science courses, whereas med school applicants have to be able to also demonstrate minimal mastery and retention of that knowledge, plus knowledge not covered in those courses.

Put another way, even if your suspect acceptance figures are correct, acceptance rates have no meaningful comparison between med and vet school, b/c the other people you are competing against are not from the same pool of the population. Out performing 90% of the people who take the GRE is much easier (requires less skill and preparation) than outperforming 85% of the people who take the MCAT.

Vet schools do use the GRE. However most students who take the GRE do not apply to Vet school. Vet school applicants are what we are looking at.

I am not certain what criteria you use to determine that the GRE is 'much easier' than the MCAT. Some vet schools accept the MCAT instead of the GRE but not all do.

GRE is comprised of general GRE portion but there are also subject area GRE tests. Many vet schools require the Biology GRE test to be taken.

Here's some info for you:

https://www.avma.org/public/Careers/Pages/vet-school-admission-101.aspx

FWIW, the science courses recommended for medical school are exactly the same as the science courses recommended for vet school ---or for grad school in biology and chemistry. I know. I've taken those courses.

In fact, I've taken more of those courses (and received top marks) than some students I know who went on to medical school or vet school. In fact, in my parasitology course, the prof took a poll to see how many were planning to pursue careers in veterinary medicine vs human medical medicine so that she could best determine the focus of the course: parasites that primarily affect animals or humans. For myself, I did research in parasitology related to a parasite that affects cattle, as well research re: Borrelia burgdorferi, the organism responsible for Lyme disease. I've known at least one English major who went to medical school but all those I know who went to vet school were biology or zoology majors, usually with concentrations in cell and molecular biology.

I realize that some people believe that only the smartest people even attempt to get into medical school and that anyone who applies to any other kind of program is less intelligent or less knowledgeable or less dedicated. That's simply untrue. Brilliant people pursue many different areas of study. Including: gasp! liberal arts!!! Oh, the horror!!!

One of the smartest people I've ever known actually applied to and was accepted at medical school mostly to spite her parents. Ultimately, she made the better choice for herself and went to graduate school in mathematics. I realize that will make some people's heads explode but it was the right choice for this particular woman who didn't really like biology very much and took physics and math classes for fun and considered chemistry to be light course work.
 
I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US.
Yes, you did. But those are two different types of professional schools with very different applicant pools. So acceptance rates tell us next to nothing about which one is more difficult to get into for any given individual applicant.

Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.
I assume you are talking undergraduate admissions here. Compared to MD schools vs. vet schools you are dealing with less different applicant pools.
But even regarding undergrad admissions, applicant pools for different schools are somewhat different, reducing the usefulness of comparing acceptance rates. Simply put: an average applicant at Tech is not the same as an average applicant at Harvard. Given how famous Harvard is in popular culture, I am sure they get a lot more "hopeless" application than less famous universities.
Look at it another way. Fort Valley State University and Georgia Tech have the same acceptance rate, 26%. Yet, Fort Valley is much easier to get into. For example, typical SATs are [R/W 380-470, Math 390-470] (i.e., really, really horrible, ~10th-25th percentile) compared to [R/W 640-730, Math 680-770] (i.e. quite good, 90th-99th percentile) for Tech. Harvard has even higher SAT scores, but not nearly as much as acceptance rate would suggest. You get a similar acceptance rate because students applying to Tech vs. Fort Valley are very different from each other, not because these two schools are equally difficult to get into. What you could say is that the average Tech and FV applicants are similar in how they judge their own strength as an applicant. Compared to them, an average Harvard applicant (acceptance rate 5%) has an entirely too high an opinion of themselves. ;)

So, while comparing acceptance rates among undergrad schools is better than what you were doing, average GPA/SAT scores and other objective metrics are much better at gauging your chances of being accepted at either school.
What you would need to do is take the same applicant (say, 3.8 GPA, 3.6 science GPA, 510 MCAT) and compare their changes at a MD school vs. vet school.

Yes, I know colleges like Harvard love to advertise using the acceptance rate. That doesn't make it an objectively good metric.

The applicant pools are really not that different. The students take the same types of courses and usually the exact same courses as undergrads.

I really don't think you understand what acceptance rates mean or the implications, however much you try to cite the definitions and to compare.

The standard measure of how difficult it is to get into any university or program is the acceptance rate. That's the number of applicants accepted/total number of applicants. There is a lot of self selection going on here, and in the case of medical school and of Harvard, there's also a lot of ego also involved. From my experience, people who choose to apply to vet school do so because they sincerely love animals and love working with them. People go to medical school for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with how much they like people or how much they want to do good in the world. Oh, sure: the best, most successful physicians are those who love their work, who put patients at the center of their practice and who want to provide the best treatment and the best possible outcomes for their patients. But a decent number of people go to medical school for the prestige and for the money. Vets never earn that much money. They do it for the love of the field.
 
It's difficult to make a one/one comparison. Overall acceptance rate for medical schools in the US is about 18%. Sure, some are uber selective, admitting only 6 percent or fewer applicants. Most have a much higher acceptance rate, with the average at about 18%. Vet school acceptance rates are closer to 10-15 percent.

What I would like to know is how many of those vet students are med school rejects or knew they didn't have what it takes to get into med school. Without considering that the data is worthless.

In my experience there is very little intersection bewteen people who are interested in being vets and people interested in being doctors.

That's true. Most people who want to be vets know early on that is what they want to do. Same with most people who apply to med school.

But the undergrad coursework is identical, with the exception that perhaps more prospective medical students take more psychology classes than prospective vet school candidates. Psychology classes are considered to be much less difficult than high level math or science courses.
 
Excuse me?

I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US. Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.

Don't pick on Harvard. But I do agree that acceptance rate, in and of itself, is not a good metric. If the ratio of applicants to available enrollment is 5 to 1, you expect about a 20% rate. If it's 10 to 1 you'd expect about a 10 % rate. So if there are far fewer vet schools you'd expect a lower acceptance rate just based on the numbers. On the other hand, a 1 in 10 chance is harder than a 1 in 5 chance. So maybe it's not the metric, but what's it's measuring.

Objection: The number of schools is irrelevant. What counts is the number of slots vs the number of people who want to get in.
 
Well good thing then I never did. I merely pointed out that it was a poor metric for comparing difficulty of getting into MD versus vet schools.
No, it is not.

The simple fact is that there are far fewer vet schools (30) than medical schools (141 M.D. and 30 D.O) in the USA, which means there are substantial fewer slots for vet students. So even if every person who applied to medical school also applied to vet school, the acceptance rate for med school would be higher because there are more slots available.

It really is that simple. And yet, we have people who feel the need to deny that simple reality.
 
Excuse me?

I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US. Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.

Don't pick on Harvard. But I do agree that acceptance rate, in and of itself, is not a good metric. If the ratio of applicants to available enrollment is 5 to 1, you expect about a 20% rate. If it's 10 to 1 you'd expect about a 10 % rate. So if there are far fewer vet schools you'd expect a lower acceptance rate just based on the numbers. On the other hand, a 1 in 10 chance is harder than a 1 in 5 chance. So maybe it's not the metric, but what's it's measuring.

Objection: The number of schools is irrelevant. What counts is the number of slots vs the number of people who want to get in.

Vet schools are not larger than med schools. There are many fewer vet schools in the US than there are med schools. There are many fewer slots for prospective vet students than there are for med students. It’s just simply numbers.

B
 
What I would like to know is how many of those vet students are med school rejects or knew they didn't have what it takes to get into med school. Without considering that the data is worthless.

You could Google that. Most vet schools have their incoming class profiles public (GRE scores, GPA stats, etc...)

Schools like University of Pennsylvania, Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida are highly competitive.

Applicants need to have a 3.5-4.0 GPA in a pre-med type biology degree and GRE scores >90th percentile.

Most schools set a 3.0 GPA as the floor with nothing below a C on any course in the last 45 hours of undergrad even getting a look.

Oh, and you have to have a fuck ton of internship hours as an undergrad.

Then there is the interview process.

Fact is, it is a shit job considering how hard it is to get into and then complete school with med-school equivalent tuition and fees.

You can't make a decent living at it unless you own a practice and then you are stuck managing a business more than practicing medicine.

You come out of school and get a job as a Dr. with one of those shit "Banfield" Value Vet chains and you are fucks. Salary won't even pay the interest on your student loans.
 
We are seeing a similar trend in science in general. In 2017 women made up 50.7 percent of first year med school students.

Marine Biology has become very female, even the traditional male dominated world of Fisheries Science.

Hell, I saw a huge shift at a cow college (VaTech) in the 4 years that I was there. Went from like 60/40 M/F to 45/55 for my freshman class to the freshman class that was starting during my senior year. Engineering, Ag, Biotech, and Natural Resources schools saw some huge demographic shifts.
 
What I would like to know is how many of those vet students are med school rejects or knew they didn't have what it takes to get into med school. Without considering that the data is worthless.

You could Google that. Most vet schools have their incoming class profiles public (GRE scores, GPA stats, etc...)

Schools like University of Pennsylvania, Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida are highly competitive.

Applicants need to have a 3.5-4.0 GPA in a pre-med type biology degree and GRE scores >90th percentile.

Most schools set a 3.0 GPA as the floor with nothing below a C on any course in the last 45 hours of undergrad even getting a look.

Oh, and you have to have a fuck ton of internship hours as an undergrad.

Then there is the interview process.

Fact is, it is a shit job considering how hard it is to get into and then complete school with med-school equivalent tuition and fees.

You can't make a decent living at it unless you own a practice and then you are stuck managing a business more than practicing medicine.

You come out of school and get a job as a Dr. with one of those shit "Banfield" Value Vet chains and you are fucks. Salary won't even pay the interest on your student loans.

Part of that is because doctors are part of the health care economy and vets are not.

The health care economy is a protected economy and doctors are able to get money for difficult procedures because of insurance. They are getting less and less because they are not in control. But they are able to get paid for difficult procedures or for doing things that require a lot of training and skill.

Vets have a limit to what they can do. Difficult expensive procedures need to be paid for by the owner.
 
But is it sexism, or indeed institutional sexism? That's the question.

My opinion with no time to look for citations to back it up.

Women have made tremendous gains in some traditionally male occupations in the last 10-20 years. These include especially medicine, research and laboratory medicine (although they still lag in some areas of research) and veterinary medicine.

I think that there are a few reasons for this. The first, most obvious reason is that there has been a much larger, more obvious effort to promote interest of girls in science and a larger recognition on the parts of society, universities and professional programs that increasing participation of females is good for society and good for demonstrating that you are not biased against women.

At the same time all of this positive attention towards the need to increase girls' participation in science and education in general, there has been a marked drop off in positive attention towards boys' participation in science and education in general. This, coupled with an increasing number of female headed households where children have little or only sporadic contact with their fathers, has not worked well to boost the confidence of boys.

We need to encourage the participation of all students in math, science, literacy, the arts, social sciences, etc.


My husband and I have spent a lot of time discussing our different experiences as elementary and secondary students. I have strong memories of being told that my perfect math scores meant that I was 'lucky' and hearing over and over that boys were better at math and science, despite the fact that I usually had the top score in any math or science class I took and that generally, two of the top 3 scorers in my schools were female. My husband recalls the negative attitudes he faced as a boy for needing to be physically active rather than sitting quietly at a desk, and the general attitude that girls were well behaved and boys were not.

The terrible fact is that at least for the last 30 years and probably for longer, elementary school children have less recess time, barely have 20 minutes for lunch, including time waiting in lines. Home lives have altered so that it is very uncommon for children of working or middle class homes to come home at 3:00 to a parent who will give them a snack and then send them outside to burn off some more energy. Children are increasingly in structured group settings from shortly after birth until they are finished with high school, either because they graduated or dropped out. There is little time to explore independently, to daydream, to run around and invent your own games or play pick up games of any sort. Most free time is devoted to screens. In poorer neighborhoods, they are often unsafe enough that parents keep their kids indoors in order to keep them as safe as possible.

Not only have children become fatter, they are increasingly likely to be diagnosed and medicated for all sorts of learning disorders and hyper active and attention deficit behaviors. My thesis is that this hits boys harder even than it hits girls. Schools are more likely to have every second of school time devoted to structured 'learning' involving butts in seats, with compliance to be more and more emphasized. Middle class and above structure their kids every waking moments in sport and structured lessons. Y's and after school programs and boys and girls clubs try hard to make up the difference in programming for less fortunate kids but don't reach every kid. Kids are parked in front of screens from a very early preschool age onward.

This is not a way to raise any child and in general, it hits boys harder as they are more driven to the need for physical activity. Girls are, too, but my observation from raising male and female children is that boys tend to need to run around even more than girls. And folks, I spent hours riding bikes, running around, climbing trees, exploring woods and meadows. The time I wasn't doing those things, I was in school, doing chores and mostly reading. I read a LOT. My husband did the big city version of these things. Most kids walked to school. In my small town, virtually no child will ever walk to school anymore as neighborhood schools are shuttered in favor of large schools located away from anybody's neighborhood.

Women have always been talented in the areas of math and science although that talent has seldom been recognized, much less developed or utilized. This is changing. I would expect there to be a more equal distribution of participation in math and science between the sexes.

But boys are taking a hit and we need to stop this. Not by taking away from girls but by building up boys again, as they were built up in my generation and the generations before.

Having said all of that, as a society, we need to do a much better job structuring our society, our world, to nurture and serve the needs of all of our children and young people---and meet the needs of older folks, as well. If we do that, all of us will better have our needs met and be able to more fully utilize our talents and enjoy our lives and serve society.
 
Excuse me?

I reported average acceptance rates of medical schools in the US vs average acceptance rates of vet schools in the US. Those are exactly the criteria that is used to rate how difficult it is to get into say, Harvard vs. Georgia Tech.

Don't pick on Harvard. But I do agree that acceptance rate, in and of itself, is not a good metric. If the ratio of applicants to available enrollment is 5 to 1, you expect about a 20% rate. If it's 10 to 1 you'd expect about a 10 % rate. So if there are far fewer vet schools you'd expect a lower acceptance rate just based on the numbers. On the other hand, a 1 in 10 chance is harder than a 1 in 5 chance. So maybe it's not the metric, but what's it's measuring.

Objection: The number of schools is irrelevant. What counts is the number of slots vs the number of people who want to get in.

The number of slots is going to be determined by the number of schools.

The point is using acceptance rates to compare med school to vet school is a very poor metric. But acceptance rates does work well for comparing Harvard to Yale and Princeton.
 
Yes, I know colleges like Harvard love to advertise using the acceptance rate. That doesn't make it an objectively good metric.

Derec, this is the metric that is used in discussions on this forum by pretty much everybody when talking about affirmative action, selectivity, etc. Admissions rates. You, yourself like to compare admissions rates for female vs male students, POC applicants vs white applicants vs Asian applicants.
 
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