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Invading the Capitol to protest the electoral vote certification (2016 edition)

Derec

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There were also some disruptions in state legislatures, such as these.




But somehow they weren't accused of insurgency, treason and trying to overthrow democracy itself ...
 

blastula

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Omg, those are all even worse than what happened Wednesday.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/rezahakbari/status/1347610932910952448[/TWEET]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, it's probably your best whataboutism ever.
 

krypton iodine sulfur

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
 

RVonse

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I
 

Trausti

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

Yeah, there probably were some Antifa agitators. But they didn't force the MAGAs onto the floor of Congress or enter members' offices. It was so obvious what they were doing was wrong. The damage they did to their political cause is immense. Fucking idiots.
 

krypton iodine sulfur

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

I'm about a third of the way in, but is there a time stamp for when they present some sort of evidence for their claims? Jake Angeli has sought work as an actor at at least some point in his life. He did appear at a BLM rally in 2020, but he was pushing Q Anon at the time. Some sources say he was there to disrupt the rally, but I haven't seen any footage of that. He's seen at other events speaking about Q Anon and praising Trump. He was at a pro-Trump rally early in 2020. The Antifa-angle doesn't appear to have much support. What evidence there is suggests he's been in favour of Trump when he appears at rallies and protests. Whether he is sincere or just trying to ramp up attention or a name for himself or some other motive? Fuck if I know.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ump-and-qanon-not-antifa-or-blm-idUSKBN29C0BP
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...in-horns-misrepresented-as-antifa/6589495002/

The thing about police being called off duty is interesting. I'm not sure what to make of that. What is the actual significance if it is true? It could be poor planning. It could support conspiracies favouring Republicans hoping for a disruption or Democrats hoping to paint protestors as extremists. Neither seems that likely. I mean, I don't really know what do do with that particular information. I've never heard of Victory Updates, but I am glad that's what you linked. I've been seeing clips of this dude recently, but until now I had no idea who he was. He started a news-like channel? Good for him, I guess. Seems legit:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBkegy4aDvk[/YOUTUBE]
 

Harry Bosch

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There were also some disruptions in state legislatures, such as these.




But somehow they weren't accused of insurgency, treason and trying to overthrow democracy itself ...


Alas, there is a great difference between protestors and armed rebels attempting to overthrow an election who storm a capital and kill officers.
 

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This thread has to be the mother of all false equivalences.
 

Elixir

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There were also some disruptions in state legislatures, such as these.




But somehow they weren't accused of insurgency, treason and trying to overthrow democracy itself ...


Maybe because they weren't carrying nazi and confederate flags, zip ties, assault weapons, pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails, and were not ransacking the Capitol building, with the apparent blessing of Capitol Police?
You have to be severely twisted or incredibly stupid - or both - to equivocate these two events.
 

J842P

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Yeah, there probably were some Antifa agitators. But they didn't force the MAGAs onto the floor of Congress or enter members' offices. It was so obvious what they were doing was wrong. The damage they did to their political cause is immense. Fucking idiots.

Yes, because the whole thing is run by a bunch of crazy idiots. This is obvious to anyone with half a brain.
 

Keith&Co.

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Yeah, were these fucking idiots never 12?

Maybe i had a weird youth, but there were always agitators. Growing up, SOMEone would
talk
about breaking into the school, building a catapult, building a ski-jump on the bunny slope, seeing if we could move Mr. Andrews' outhouse four feet further from the house....
Lots of talk.
Then someone might start acting like we were going to do it. Issuing tasks, or just saying, 'C'mon.'

My ideal memories would be the times i did not cross the line with them. Stopping just short of tresspassing, or once i realized we were, in factt, trespassing, whereupon i left, nose clean.

But i sometimes went along. We went too far and i went with them. And i got in trouble. I got in trouble for participating, for crossing the line, and no one gave a rat's furry ass whose idea it was originally, or whether it was intended as a joke from the beginning.

So, okay. Antifa was at the riot. The antiantifa (or, the "fa") still went, expected violence, and got it. They certainly made these alleged antifa agitators' jobs easy.
 

Cheerful Charlie

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Many of the goofballs made sure their antics assaulting the Capitol building were well photographed on their cell phones and posted to social media. These fools are not going to be hard to track down and arrested. And that building has a very sophisticated communications system that will allow easy access to records of what phones were there that day and their owners. Other faces caught on these devices will probably be easily found also. No, these were not Antifa, these were smirking MAGAt idiots, many of them with lots of MAGAt activity online to demonstrate that. This stunt is not going to be something that these morons can easily laugh off, and it is probable there is not going to be mere wrist slaps for all involved.

As we speak, these sorts of morons are already plotting actions for Biden's inauguration and other activities. Letting morons like this of easy is not an option, it just encourages more of the same.

Loose the hounds.
 

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In such a large mob, I find it plausible that there were different sorts of protesters/"revolutionists". Some were probably insurrectionists, some were white supremacists, some were ardent MAGA jackasses who were willing to engage in violence, some were simply MAGAs, maybe some were anti-Maga inciters and some were simply protesters who got carried away by mob fever.

That does not excuse their violence and destruction. And we know that 5 deaths are attributable to this mob violence - one law enforcement officer, one at the hands of law enforcement and apparently three due to some sort of health problem. All of this occurred during a mob invasion of the seat of the US government to stop a constitutionally mandated procedure.

I wonder why the 7 brave Republican patriots of the Senate and the 130 (?) brave Republican House of Representative patriots did not stay, welcome their fellow patriots into the Capitol, and join them in their righteous cause.
 

Angra Mainyu

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In such a large mob, I find it plausible that there were different sorts of protesters/"revolutionists". Some were probably insurrectionists, some were white supremacists, some were ardent MAGA jackasses who were willing to engage in violence, some were simply MAGAs, maybe some were anti-Maga inciters and some were simply protesters who got carried away by mob fever.

That does not excuse their violence and destruction. And we know that 5 deaths are attributable to this mob violence - one law enforcement officer, one at the hands of law enforcement and apparently three due to some sort of health problem. All of this occurred during a mob invasion of the seat of the US government to stop a constitutionally mandated procedure.

I wonder why the 7 brave Republican patriots of the Senate and the 130 (?) brave Republican House of Representative patriots did not stay, welcome their fellow patriots into the Capitol, and join them in their righteous cause.

I grant you it does not excuse it. Some of them trampled a person to death, certainly for no good reason. But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence. And neither were those who died due to some health problem. Sure, the deaths would not have happened without the mob violence. But there are plenty of other things without which they would not have happened. We shouldn't go that far with attributions.
 

Copernicus

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Trump supporters just saw real-time reporting of their own faction violently breaking into the Capitol building, trashing it, and rampaging. A capital police officer was brutally beaten and later died. A joint session of Congress was physically interrupted in the midst of a traditional, largely symbolic constitutional exercise that has happened every four years since the founding of the country. The mob doing this had just come from a "Stop the Steal" rally in which the President of the United States urged them to march on the capital and disrupt the session.

How do Trump supporters respond? They go to the most obvious thing they can think of--blame it on Democrats, liberals, progressives, BLM protests, and Antifa agitators wearing MAGA hats. That's the ticket!
 

laughing dog

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In such a large mob, I find it plausible that there were different sorts of protesters/"revolutionists". Some were probably insurrectionists, some were white supremacists, some were ardent MAGA jackasses who were willing to engage in violence, some were simply MAGAs, maybe some were anti-Maga inciters and some were simply protesters who got carried away by mob fever.

That does not excuse their violence and destruction. And we know that 5 deaths are attributable to this mob violence - one law enforcement officer, one at the hands of law enforcement and apparently three due to some sort of health problem. All of this occurred during a mob invasion of the seat of the US government to stop a constitutionally mandated procedure.

I wonder why the 7 brave Republican patriots of the Senate and the 130 (?) brave Republican House of Representative patriots did not stay, welcome their fellow patriots into the Capitol, and join them in their righteous cause.

I grant you it does not excuse it. Some of them trampled a person to death, certainly for no good reason. But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.
The police fired at the mob because of the violence. Or do you think the police just opened fire for the hell of it?
Sure, the deaths would not have happened without the mob violence.
Then by definition, the deaths can be attributable to them.
 

bilby

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

That's a convenient prediction. :rolleyes:

It's also starting to come out that there were elves at the riots, but as we all know that the cops are in cahoots with the elf lobby, I expect to see no elves being arrested.
 

Keith&Co.

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But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.
It was certainly part of it.
If she and her associates had been peacefully standing outside those doors, verbally requesting entry, the guard would not have fired.

If she became separated from the group and wandered, alone, into a restricted area, and left the first time a guard told her to leave, she would not have been shot.

The people in that hallway refused the guard's requests to leave, battered the door, smashed the window, and when they saw a gun pointed st them, still mobbed the barricade and hoisted Ashli up over it.

American cops horribly overuse 'I feared for my life,' but with the mob acting violently, smashing windows, breaking the doors, and reports of cops being hurt elsewhere on the campus, the guard vertainly felt she was a threat.
 

Keith&Co.

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It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.
Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.
 

Keith&Co.

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

That's a convenient prediction. :rolleyes:

It's also starting to come out that there were elves at the riots, but as we all know that the cops are in cahoots with the elf lobby, I expect to see no elves being arrested.

Nah. Elves just feel the iron in the cops' guns coming and run.
 

bilby

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But what do you mean "attributable" to mob violence? The woman shot by a police officer was not killed by mob violence.
It was certainly part of it.
If she and her associates had been peacefully standing outside those doors, verbally requesting entry, the guard would not have fired.

If she became separated from the group and wandered, alone, into a restricted area, and left the first time a guard told her to leave, she would not have been shot.

The people in that hallway refused the guard's requests to leave, battered the door, smashed the window, and when they saw a gun pointed st them, still mobbed the barricade and hoisted Ashli up over it.

American cops horribly overuse 'I feared for my life,' but with the mob acting violently, smashing windows, breaking the doors, and reports of cops being hurt elsewhere on the campus, the guard vertainly felt she was a threat.

Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

I am surprised that they shot this one individual, because I would have expected that they would have shot a lot of people in such a situation.
 

bilby

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It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.
Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.

They at least know to cover their faces and take off their work ID badges.
 

ruby sparks

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I was thinking just yesterday it was kind of Trump supporters to top negative reactions to the last election.

When it comes to US elections, I generally expect at least some grumbling about elections being stolen. Sometimes the claims have some credibility such as issues with voter suppression tactics. Some claims certainly strain credibility, such as the rather large number of dead people who seem to vote in deciding numbers every major election. 2000 was kind of a special case. If Trump had won, sure, I'd have expected at least some cries of fraud or foreign interference. I'd expect to hear 'Trump is not my president' or words like 'traitors' or 'treason' to be thrown around especially online. A protest march or two? Yeah, though with covid I don't know what the turnout would have been like.

But this shit was pretty fucked up. It wasn't even the level of conflict we saw--not like we haven't seen shit get out of control before (there have been sports riots with higher death tolls)--but rather the level of delusion and entitlement and how far they actually got with it.
It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa. And if so, I would not expect any arrests of those individuals.

Another side of this you probably have not heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6Ht5BFp6I

Italy stole the USA elections. Lol. lol. Lol. Lol. This is not even worthy of scraping the barrel.
 

Keith&Co.

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It is starting to come out that there were professional rioters associated with Antifa.
Then where was the first aid station? Roving medics? Pallets of water and snacks?

Professional rioters know how to protest, dammit.

They at least know to cover their faces and take off their work ID badges.

Verily.

Imagine the mission brief for this riot, too.

"Okay, the election came out the way we wanted, and there's no legal thing Trump, or the 10,000 expected peaceful protestors, can do to change the fact that we won.
"So, let's get there, infiltrate the mob, and get them to interrupt a process we fully support, MAYBE threaten the lives of people doing what we want done.
"Everyone got their assignments?"
"I'm on removing face masks."
"I'm handing out Nazi t-shirts."
"I'm making sure no one has a burner phone, and their personal phone is open to the local WIFI."
"I'm getting people who brought their work ID to wear it proudly."
"I'm changing Trump's speech to include phrases like 'marching with you to the capitol'."
 

Keith&Co.

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Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.
Yes.
As a condition of last resort, when all lesser means have failed, or cannot reasonably be applied. (Ashli would have had that memorized as well as i did.)
The barricade was a lesser means.
The doors being locked, lesser means.
The guards outside the doors, lesser means.
The barricades outside the building, the cops behind them, the red ropes, more lesser means.

But the guard would still have been expected, and trained, to use lesser means instead of deadly force if the situation afforded him the option. But physically restraining Ashli would have exposed him, and his principals, to the rest of the angry mob pressing behind her. So we jump past a taser ir a baton, if he had one, to the application of deadly force.
 

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The Trump rabble was far more violent and threatening than the scattered videos showed during the riot. Chris Hayes has just aired some of the new information that has come in. Apparently, there was a preplanned effort to hunt down and kill some congressional leaders, including Mike Pence. Earlier in the day, Trump had again voiced his frustration at Pence, making a veiled threat if Pence did not carry out his wish to reject Biden votes from the Electoral College. A noose was strung up outside of the Capitol, and a crowd inside of the entrance to the building were chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" Congressional offices were systematically searched. If Capitol police had not held off those attacking the barricades, many members of Congress could have been killed or injured.

[YOUTUBE]lhjRXO72v1s&ab_channel=MSNBC[/YOUTUBE]
 

ZiprHead

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You poor soul. Don't you realize people yelling from the gallery is just as bad?
 

Derec

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You poor soul. Don't you realize people yelling from the gallery is just as bad?

It's a matter of numbers. Had Tanya had 1000 people with her instead of just a few, would it be any different?

Given all the violence in the streets in 2020, I very much think that had Trump won reelection, the Antifa/#BLM/Resistance would have stormed the Capitol on the 6th.

The question is, how would people on here have written about it? How would CNN have reported? Likely some variation of "Mostly peaceful" with some references to a "reckoning on race" ...
CNN-Mostly-Peaceful.jpg

And no, there was absolutely nothing "peaceful" about Kenosha riots that led to many buildings burned to the ground or vandalized.
 

Derec

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Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

What happened to everything that the Left has been saying about police using lethal force for the last six years? Now all of a sudden lethal force threshold is lowered.
So when say a #BLM rioter gains access to a restricted area during the next #Justice4X riot, it's ok to shoot them?

It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

Do you think the same when #BLM/Antifa gain access to a government building?
 

bilby

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Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

What happened to everything that the Left has been saying about police using lethal force for the last six years?
That question makes no sense.

There is no 'the Left'. There are a bunch of people who all identify with one left-wing position or another, but I don't expect them to agree with one another on every single thing, and if you do, you're going to look like a total idiot when you see diversity and claim it to be hypocrisy.
Now all of a sudden lethal force threshold is lowered.
Nope. I am not aware of anyone who has changed their opinion on that threshold, though I expect some exist. Certainly my post isn't an instance of, or evidence for, any such lowering.
So when say a #BLM rioter gains access to a restricted area during the next #Justice4X riot, it's ok to shoot them?
That would, obviously, depend on the circumstances. But certainly it would be OK by me, assuming that the circumstances were substantially similar.
It's not like they didn't let the rioters know that what they were attempting was unlawful; That the guards were armed; Or that the building was government property to which they were not authorised access.

Do you think the same when #BLM/Antifa gain access to a government building?

Yes. Obviously.

I am surprised when anyone in the US doesn't get shot when breaking into any secured facilities, particularly government facilities.
 

Treedbear

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Attempts by unauthorised persons to gain access to restricted areas can be met by lethal force whether or not the guards feel threatened.

What happened to everything that the Left has been saying about police using lethal force for the last six years? Now all of a sudden lethal force threshold is lowered. ...

I'm on the left and that doesn't represent my thinking at all. Lethal force wasn't a rational next step response given the situation. But the irony of the incident doesn't escape me. We need more humane training for our police, period. Not just as it concerns minorities. But yeah, especially where it concerns minorities.
 

Cheerful Charlie

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You don't fuck with a secret service agent protecting a federal official he has been delegated to protect. If that agent points a pistol at you and tells you to stop doing what you are doing, stop. Stupid woman did not stop, being stupid. I have no sympathy for her.
 

Cheerful Charlie

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https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/several-well-known-hate-groups-identified-at-capitol-riot

Pro Publica has been tracking far right hate groups and militias for several years now. Many of the main actors in these groups are open, well known and have long track records of violent rhetoric and activities. Viewing videos of the riot at the Capitol Building by Pro Publica researchers has found these same old faces at the scene of the crime. No Antifa here. Same violent extremists that have been building up to this for quite some time. Many of these known actors made sure their blogs and social media accounts proudly displayed their activities, some from inside the Capitol Building.

Right wingers braying the attacks were caused by Anifa are liars or are stupid people listening to liars.

...
Another person took to Parler to say that they were planning to show up, armed, in Washington for Inauguration Day. “Many of us will return on January 19, 2021 carrying Our weapons,” wrote the Parler user, who goes by the handle Colonel007. “We will come in numbers that no standing army or police agency can match.”
...

The violence may be just beginning.
 

ZiprHead

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You don't fuck with a secret service agent protecting a federal official he has been delegated to protect. If that agent points a pistol at you and tells you to stop doing what you are doing, stop. Stupid woman did not stop, being stupid. I have no sympathy for her.

Not to mention considering her background she should have known better.
 

ideologyhunter

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Back in 1922, Babbitt was more than just a surname. It stood for dimwitted allegiance to right wing orthodoxy. Whereas, today...well, today, that's still what it means.
 

bilby

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https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/several-well-known-hate-groups-identified-at-capitol-riot

Pro Publica has been tracking far right hate groups and militias for several years now. Many of the main actors in these groups are open, well known and have long track records of violent rhetoric and activities. Viewing videos of the riot at the Capitol Building by Pro Publica researchers has found these same old faces at the scene of the crime. No Antifa here. Same violent extremists that have been building up to this for quite some time. Many of these known actors made sure their blogs and social media accounts proudly displayed their activities, some from inside the Capitol Building.

Right wingers braying the attacks were caused by Anifa are liars or are stupid people listening to liars.

...
Another person took to Parler to say that they were planning to show up, armed, in Washington for Inauguration Day. “Many of us will return on January 19, 2021 carrying Our weapons,” wrote the Parler user, who goes by the handle Colonel007. “We will come in numbers that no standing army or police agency can match.”
...

The violence may be just beginning.

The US Army has about 1.3 million active duty personnel. As a standing army, they have a lot of 'force multipliers' when facing a less organised and less well equipped enemy. Their logistics capability alone likely makes them a match for an insurrectionist mob ten times that size, and (as Desert Storm illustrated), their air supremacy over the entire theatre makes them more than a match for any opponent lacking air support - higher numbers of enemy troops in such conditions are not an advantage to the enemy, they just create a 'target rich environment'.

To bring numbers that the US Armed Forces cannot match, they will need pretty much every American of fighting age who is not currently on active service. And even then, they probably wouldn't have a hope of winning.

If these fuckwits try to go toe-to-toe with the real military, they're all going to die or be rounded up in camps before the end of the day.

There's a reason why terrorists don't stand up on battlefields waving their rifles and challenging their opponents to fight; and instead have to hide amongst the civilian population, striking by surprise and then running away before the cops or the army show up.
 

Angra Mainyu

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laughing dog said:
The police fired at the mob because of the violence. Or do you think the police just opened fire for the hell of it?
A police officer fired at the mob, killing a woman. I do not know whether it was justified, but it is clear that it's not a death due to mob violence. It's a death due to a police officer firing at the mob.



laughing dog said:
Then by definition, the deaths can be attributable to them.
That is a common theory, but it is not true. For example, these particular deaths also would not have happened if Biden had not won the elections. But it is not the case that by definition, they are attributable to Biden's victory. So, no the fact that the deaths would not have happened if there had been no mob violence does not mean, by definition, that they can be attributable to mob violence.
 

Harry Bosch

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laughing dog said:
The police fired at the mob because of the violence. Or do you think the police just opened fire for the hell of it?
A police officer fired at the mob, killing a woman. I do not know whether it was justified, but it is clear that it's not a death due to mob violence. It's a death due to a police officer firing at the mob.



laughing dog said:
Then by definition, the deaths can be attributable to them.
That is a common theory, but it is not true. For example, these particular deaths also would not have happened if Biden had not won the elections. But it is not the case that by definition, they are attributable to Biden's victory. So, no the fact that the deaths would not have happened if there had been no mob violence does not mean, by definition, that they can be attributable to mob violence.

Oh my goodness! Are you auditioning to be a Jr attorney on Giuliani's team?
 

laughing dog

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laughing dog said:
The police fired at the mob because of the violence. Or do you think the police just opened fire for the hell of it?
A police officer fired at the mob, killing a woman. I do not know whether it was justified, but it is clear that it's not a death due to mob violence. It's a death due to a police officer firing at the mob.
And why did the officer fire into a mob of people?



Angra Mainya said:
That is a common theory, but it is not true. For example, these particular deaths also would not have happened if Biden had not won the elections. But it is not the case that by definition, they are attributable to Biden's victory. So, no the fact that the deaths would not have happened if there had been no mob violence does not mean, by definition, that they can be attributable to mob violence.
I do not have the patience to deal with such pedantic obtuseness.
 

Treedbear

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I just think we need to change the protocols on when to initiate lethal force. The rioters smashing the doors in knew there was a gun pointed at them. The longer the situation went on without it being used the more they came to assume it never would. If I was calling the shots there would have been a warning shot fired. Or a barrage of warning shots by a squad of police from several vantage points. Basically the policy for officers carrying guns should be that lethal force is allowed after a a clear warning has been issued and the perp has demonstrated that they don't care whether they are killed. For instance, way before they got to the inner hallways they could have been met by security who fired a few rounds over their heads. If that didn't dissuade them then I wouldn't have a problem with using as much force as necessary to get them to turn around.
 
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