Is Afghanistan a Dual Society?

[starwater]

The definition of a dual society from Britannica

The term dualism implies presence of both desirable and undesirable situations or phenomena that are mutually exclusive to different groups of the society. The term dual society refers to a society where two different sectors co-exist

There are the Predator's - Taliban and the Victims the civilians and women in general. The opposites that exist as dual groups and very little in between. The US came in and showed a third way and are now leaving and a vacuum is created. The pressure on the vacuum is what we are observing now. Will there be something different that fills this in or will the dual society return?

 

[steve_bank]

It s not just the Taliban as predators, although we made them into singular enemy.

Keep in mind that to a great many people see the west and in particular the USA as predatory.

Afghanistan has long been a narco war lord system. Governments have never worked in Afghanistan. It has always been tribal. There is a large uncontrolled tribal area in Pakistan where clerics and conservative Islam is the law.

The Brits, the Russians, and now we have leaned that lesson.

Better examplse of a split system might be Lebanon and Iraq. The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq want separation. Distinct and separate divides by ethnicity, religion, and tribe or clan. It is impossible to form any kind of working system.

 

[starwater]

I agree that they perceive the US as predatory, but was the US really a predator? I am interested to watch how the vacuum (and nature does not allow vacuums (not talking about space)), left by the US fills. Does it fill back with something different than the tribal rule.

 

[steve_bank]

Historically the colonial west was predatory. Predatory may not be the best word, too much nagger attached.

Global histry of civilization is expand, conquer and assimilate, decline followed by decline and rise of a new civilization.


In te absence of a strong functioning government, the Taliban has filled the power vacuum. The Talban will maintain order and security through force and social conformity.

The Chinese maintain civil order through education and social conformity backed by military and police power. China would probably not be governable otherwise.

Our political leadership thinks we should remake the word in our image despite the failures in VN, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

We toppled Hussein and Gadhafiresulting in perpetual chaos and conflict in Iraq and Libya.

Democracy requires social compromise. Outisde of the the western liberal systems religious and ethnic rivals can not reach compromises.

Here in the USA we are being tested on whether or not our system can reach working compromises. It is not a given that the American experiment in unrestricted social behavior will survive.

The revolutionary American idea of self rule as opposed to the authoritarian British monarchy of the day is a great social experiment. Right now we seem to be failing.

 

[starwater]

I agree with your assessment.

You look at the planes filling up and it is mostly men fleeing. the vacuum will be filled by the Taliban, however, China is rubbing its hands together to get access to raw minerals and a transportation network. I am sure Russia is also having the same thoughts.

 

[Playball40]

It s not just the Taliban as predators, although we made them into singular enemy.

Keep in mind that to a great many people see the west and in particular the USA as predatory.

Afghanistan has long been a narco war lord system. Governments have never worked in Afghanistan. It has always been tribal. There is a large uncontrolled tribal area in Pakistan where clerics and conservative Islam is the law.

The Brits, the Russians, and now we have leaned that lesson.

Better examplse of a split system might be Lebanon and Iraq. The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq want separation. Distinct and separate divides by ethnicity, religion, and tribe or clan. It is impossible to form any kind of working system.

But it really went south after the Soviet Union invaded. Before that, it wasn't the hell it is now.

 

[bilby]

It s not just the Taliban as predators, although we made them into singular enemy.

Keep in mind that to a great many people see the west and in particular the USA as predatory.

Afghanistan has long been a narco war lord system. Governments have never worked in Afghanistan. It has always been tribal. There is a large uncontrolled tribal area in Pakistan where clerics and conservative Islam is the law.

The Brits, the Russians, and now we have leaned that lesson.

Better examplse of a split system might be Lebanon and Iraq. The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq want separation. Distinct and separate divides by ethnicity, religion, and tribe or clan. It is impossible to form any kind of working system.

But it really went south after the Soviet Union invaded. Before that, it wasn't the hell it is now.

Dr William Brydon begs to differ.

 

[starwater]

Victims and Controllers. Its a two way society and will always be unless both sides can come together to seek commonality.

So far the controllers are reasserting control and the victims are still being victims, with a few notable exceptions.

 

[steve_bank]

It s not just the Taliban as predators, although we made them into singular enemy.

Keep in mind that to a great many people see the west and in particular the USA as predatory.

Afghanistan has long been a narco war lord system. Governments have never worked in Afghanistan. It has always been tribal. There is a large uncontrolled tribal area in Pakistan where clerics and conservative Islam is the law.

The Brits, the Russians, and now we have leaned that lesson.

Better examplse of a split system might be Lebanon and Iraq. The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq want separation. Distinct and separate divides by ethnicity, religion, and tribe or clan. It is impossible to form any kind of working system.

But it really went south after the Soviet Union invaded. Before that, it wasn't the hell it is now.

We armed and trained the Mujahedin, then when Russia left we abandoned Afghanistan after promising we would not.

VN, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya are all the same failures. We tinkered and left bend chaos and destruction. It is the Star Trek Prime Directive, we tinkered in complicated cultures without any consideration of long term consequences.

We are meddling in Iran which if it collapses will only add to the instability and suffering in the region.

We here have become a split culture and IMO it is unknown if we will survive as a nation. We have lost any ability for a functioning federal government leaving the door open for a Trump lie authoritarian.

 

[fromderinside]

Actually steve_bank they were disasters with which we had some success in making them worse disasters when we left.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The definition of a dual society from Britannica

The term dualism implies presence of both desirable and undesirable situations or phenomena that are mutually exclusive to different groups of the society. The term dual society refers to a society where two different sectors co-exist

There are the Predator's - Taliban and the Victims the civilians and women in general. The opposites that exist as dual groups and very little in between. The US came in and showed a third way and are now leaving and a vacuum is created. The pressure on the vacuum is what we are observing now. Will there be something different that fills this in or will the dual society return?

I think this is preposterously simplistic view. Why would the US backed Afghan army surrender so fast to anyone they consider a predator. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of Afghans support the Taliban. Civilians and women aren't the victim of the Taleban. They're supporting and welcome the Taleban. Not all of them of course. But most of them. A vast majority.

Afghanistan society is tribal. Ie loyalty is to your family and extended family. It does not extend to the nation. This is clearly something the US supported government failed to address. Obviously. For whatever reason the Taleban are better at playing the political game in Afghanistan than any other group. I think seeing them as predators forcing themselves onto the Afghan people is hard to justify.

USA had the same view of the communists in the Vietnam war. But the communists were extremely popular among the Vietnam people. Also a Tribal society.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree that they perceive the US as predatory, but was the US really a predator? I am interested to watch how the vacuum (and nature does not allow vacuums (not talking about space)), left by the US fills. Does it fill back with something different than the tribal rule.

I think it's unhelpful to think in terms of predator at all. USA has a national narrative. They tell themselves that they are the defenders of freedom. To reach freedom violence can be justified. Against the enemies of freedom. But it's just a story. Every side in any war has their own story where they're the heroes.

The Taleban are a classic fascist type ideology. They don't really have their own core. They're not so much Muslim as anti-western or anti-communist. They exist solely in opposition to something else. The Taleban was born in the fight against USSR in the 1980'ies. That brought them together. Once they gained power, they didn't know what to do with that power. They had to keep inventing external enemies in order to keep the fight going.

I have a friend who worked as a journalist in Afghanistan during the US led invasion. One story he had was this. Various groups would shoot against each other. The US would show up, and the group stopped shooting each other, and turned to shoot at the Americans. When the Americans backed out, they went back to shooting at each other.

There's NOTHING holding the Taleban together. It's a jury rigged mess of a government.

They're comparable to Trump. All he can do is whine about immigrants and liberals. But he has no ideas of his own. The Taleban is the same shit.

Ironically winning could be the worst thing for the Taleban. Let's hope.

 

[starwater]

The definition of a dual society from Britannica

The term dualism implies presence of both desirable and undesirable situations or phenomena that are mutually exclusive to different groups of the society. The term dual society refers to a society where two different sectors co-exist

There are the Predator's - Taliban and the Victims the civilians and women in general. The opposites that exist as dual groups and very little in between. The US came in and showed a third way and are now leaving and a vacuum is created. The pressure on the vacuum is what we are observing now. Will there be something different that fills this in or will the dual society return?

I think this is preposterously simplistic view. Why would the US backed Afghan army surrender so fast to anyone they consider a predator. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of Afghans support the Taliban. Civilians and women aren't the victim of the Taleban. They're supporting and welcome the Taleban. Not all of them of course. But most of them. A vast majority.

Afghanistan society is tribal. Ie loyalty is to your family and extended family. It does not extend to the nation. This is clearly something the US supported government failed to address. Obviously. For whatever reason the Taleban are better at playing the political game in Afghanistan than any other group. I think seeing them as predators forcing themselves onto the Afghan people is hard to justify.

USA had the same view of the communists in the Vietnam war. But the communists were extremely popular among the Vietnam people. Also a Tribal society.

Well I think you are preposterously over complicating it. I am talking about a high level view not down to the granular level.

Women are now starting to protest albeit small, and so the direction is changing.

Please provide evidence of women "welcoming" the Taliban.

 

[steve_bank]

Actually steve_bank they were disasters with which we had some success in making them worse disasters when we left.

No argument. Would the people of Iraq and Libya be better off today if we did not topple Gadhafi and Hussein? A distinct possibility.

Here at home are becoming ungovernable.

 

[skepticalbip]

... snip ...

Please provide evidence of women "welcoming" the Taliban.

Certainly not ALL women in Afghanistan welcome the Taliban just as not all men there welcome them. I would guess that most Afghans of either sex don't welcome them but then there are religious fanatics of both sexes in all religions that I know of.

 

[steve_bank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

An overview.

Afghanistan like Crimea and Ukraine and other paces were never a nation state. No history of collective group unity and identity. Riddled with violent factions.

Turkey was created to be a modern democracy and it slippedd into religions and political authoritarianism.

In the face of Iraq and Afghanistan it is lunacy for Biden to say we 'stand behind' the Ukrainians. It is a corrupt fractured entity. Another potential sink hole.

Ukraine as it is today was created on a map.

 

[bilby]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

An overview.

Afghanistan like Crimea and Ukraine and other paces were never a nation state. No history of collective group unity and identity. Riddled with violent factions.

Turkey was created to be a modern democracy and it slippedd into religions and political authoritarianism.

In the face of Iraq and Afghanistan it is lunacy for Biden to say we 'stand behind' the Ukrainians. It is a corrupt fractured entity. Another potential sink hole.

Ukraine as it is today was created on a map.

So, much like the USA, then.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The definition of a dual society from Britannica

The term dualism implies presence of both desirable and undesirable situations or phenomena that are mutually exclusive to different groups of the society. The term dual society refers to a society where two different sectors co-exist

There are the Predator's - Taliban and the Victims the civilians and women in general. The opposites that exist as dual groups and very little in between. The US came in and showed a third way and are now leaving and a vacuum is created. The pressure on the vacuum is what we are observing now. Will there be something different that fills this in or will the dual society return?

I think this is preposterously simplistic view. Why would the US backed Afghan army surrender so fast to anyone they consider a predator. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of Afghans support the Taliban. Civilians and women aren't the victim of the Taleban. They're supporting and welcome the Taleban. Not all of them of course. But most of them. A vast majority.

Afghanistan society is tribal. Ie loyalty is to your family and extended family. It does not extend to the nation. This is clearly something the US supported government failed to address. Obviously. For whatever reason the Taleban are better at playing the political game in Afghanistan than any other group. I think seeing them as predators forcing themselves onto the Afghan people is hard to justify.

USA had the same view of the communists in the Vietnam war. But the communists were extremely popular among the Vietnam people. Also a Tribal society.

Well I think you are preposterously over complicating it. I am talking about a high level view not down to the granular level.

Women are now starting to protest albeit small, and so the direction is changing.

Please provide evidence of women "welcoming" the Taliban.

The speed with which the Taliban won is my evidence. Its 50% of the population. In the secular west we have bad habit of treating patriarchal societies as one where women are pure victims of some sort of a conspiracy. No matter how bizarre we may find it, lots of women are super conservative and anti-feminist.

Men are dependent on women for making families. Women always have power.

The Western image as saviours if Afghanistan and liberators of women was obviously a fantasy.

All the government troops who handed over their weapons without a fight, do you really think all of them would do it so fast if they thought it might hurt their wives and daughters? Of course not.

 

[Bomb#20]

I think this is preposterously simplistic view. Why would the US backed Afghan army surrender so fast to anyone they consider a predator.

Is that a serious question? They surrendered when they stopped being US-backed, because they knew without US backing the war was unwinnable. Duh.

Why was it unwinnable? Here's your theory...

It's pretty clear that the vast majority of Afghans support the Taliban. Civilians and women aren't the victim of the Taleban. They're supporting and welcome the Taleban. Not all of them of course. But most of them. A vast majority.

Here's General Sadat's theory...

I Commanded Afghan Troops This Year. We Were Betrayed.

For the past three and a half months, I fought day and night, nonstop, in southern Afghanistan’s Helmand Province against an escalating and bloody Taliban offensive. Coming under frequent attack, we held the Taliban back and inflicted heavy casualties. Then I was called to Kabul to command Afghanistan’s special forces. But the Taliban already were entering the city; it was too late.

I am exhausted. I am frustrated. And I am angry.

President Biden said last week that “American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves.”

It’s true that the Afghan Army lost its will to fight. But that’s because of the growing sense of abandonment by our American partners and the disrespect and disloyalty reflected in Mr. Biden’s tone and words over the past few months.
...
So why did the Afghan military collapse? The answer is threefold.

First, former President Donald Trump’s February 2020 peace deal with the Taliban in Doha doomed us. It put an expiration date on American interest in the region. Second, we lost contractor logistics and maintenance support critical to our combat operations. Third, the corruption endemic in Mr. Ghani’s government that flowed to senior military leadership and long crippled our forces on the ground irreparably hobbled us.
...
The Afghan forces were trained by the Americans using the U.S. military model based on highly technical special reconnaissance units, helicopters and airstrikes. We lost our superiority to the Taliban when our air support dried up and our ammunition ran out.

Contractors maintained our bombers and our attack and transport aircraft throughout the war. By July, most of the 17,000 support contractors had left. A technical issue now meant that aircraft — a Black Hawk helicopter, a C-130 transport, a surveillance drone — would be grounded.

The contractors also took proprietary software and weapons systems with them. They physically removed our helicopter missile-defense system. Access to the software that we relied on to track our vehicles, weapons and personnel also disappeared. Real-time intelligence on targets went out the window, too.

The Taliban fought with snipers and improvised explosive devices while we lost aerial and laser-guided weapon capacity.
...

To sum up, America is an Evil Overlord who conquered Afghanistan from the plucky Taliban heroes, but America lost Afghanistan back to the Taliban because America deliberately chose not to follow Rule 23 from the Evil Overlord Rule List.

"23: I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks."​

 

[skepticalbip]

The definition of a dual society from Britannica

The term dualism implies presence of both desirable and undesirable situations or phenomena that are mutually exclusive to different groups of the society. The term dual society refers to a society where two different sectors co-exist

There are the Predator's - Taliban and the Victims the civilians and women in general. The opposites that exist as dual groups and very little in between. The US came in and showed a third way and are now leaving and a vacuum is created. The pressure on the vacuum is what we are observing now. Will there be something different that fills this in or will the dual society return?

I think this is preposterously simplistic view. Why would the US backed Afghan army surrender so fast to anyone they consider a predator. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of Afghans support the Taliban. Civilians and women aren't the victim of the Taleban. They're supporting and welcome the Taleban. Not all of them of course. But most of them. A vast majority.

That strikes me as an odd analysis. Would you use the same reasoning to explain the rapid takeover of territory by Genghis Kahn or even the NAZIs? While there were, almost certainly, some NAZI sympathizers in the Netherlands, I wouldn't suggest that the vast majority of Dutch were just because the country only resisted for five days.

Is it possible that people stop resisting when they realize that further resistance means certain death?