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Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

Jarhyn

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Something big must have cashed out at just before 3 AM EDT this morning. Everything listed on coindesk.com instantly dropped 8% at that time. Maybe a failed DeFi liquidated then?
The thing I found interesting looking at Bitcoin's chart was that there was virtually no connection between trade volume and Bitcoin value. The volume of Bitcoin seemed relatively cyclical. Bitcoin went up, around the same. Massive crash, about the same.
As I keep saying, the volume is caused by it's actual use, those who buy and sell bitcoins at transactional volumes rather than at speculative volumes. They do so for drugs, constantly, and their loss from speculation is less than the traditional loss from normal money laundering or getting scammed.

It doesn't matter if the market is volatile. People will buy their bitcoins, buy their monero, buy their drugs, and the other side will sell their drugs, sell their monero, "sell" some NFTs, actually sell some NFTs, sell their bitcoins, and have cash, because it's cheaper and safer doing all that than going out on the street.
 

ramoss

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
 

Harry Bosch

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence.
With the one minor caveat that the confidence of nation based currencies is based on economic models and data. Bitcoin is based on confidence from...

...well nothing.
Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
It isn't a currency, so it shouldn't be expected to behave like one.
 

Swammerdami

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There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.

Nitpick: The first sentence has three negatives, as I've shown with reddening. I think that for your intended meaning you wanted just two negatives (or four!). (You also probably intended "debit/ATM cards": instead of "credit cards.")

Bitcoin has always seemed rather flawed to me in various ways. But I won't try to predict its future. A large infrastructure has developed to process Bitcoins (e.g. to mine blocks); and those investors have an incentive to keep Bitcoin active: Perhaps they will engage in pump-dump schemes to maintain interest in their "currency."
 

Harry Bosch

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There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.

Nitpick: The first sentence has three negatives, as I've shown with reddening. I think that for your intended meaning you wanted just two negatives (or four!). (You also probably intended "debit/ATM cards": instead of "credit cards.")

Bitcoin has always seemed rather flawed to me in various ways. But I won't try to predict its future. A large infrastructure has developed to process Bitcoins (e.g. to mine blocks); and those investors have an incentive to keep Bitcoin active: Perhaps they will engage in pump-dump schemes to maintain interest in their "currency."
Oh, I think that the creators of all the bit coin investments and the "NDF;s" have been very guilty of pump-dump schemes. The creators of the NDFs have made wild money.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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article said:
Bancor, whose marketing slogan is "Earn safe DeFi yields on your favorite tokens", said the move was a temporary one "to protect the protocol and its users".
Wait... the insurance was to protect the user. So no longer insuring losses protects the user more? Man crypto is the Bizarro currency.

On Twitter people don't know what to do. Some say stay, some say go. Bancor certainly gave them the "you really should just accept your losses now before you lose it all" signal.
 

Canard DuJour

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence.
With the one minor caveat that the confidence of nation based currencies is based on economic models and data. Bitcoin is based on confidence from...

...well nothing.

Another huge difference is tax. People can always ditch crypto, but must have sovereign currencies (USD, GBP etc) to settle tax liabilities.

There's a reason monetary sovereigns tax in their own currencies and it isn't because they need our money. They need us to need to need their currency.
 

Jarhyn

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Crypto does not require trust-based banking. I can send you money, you can send me money, and the transaction gets processed by the users of the platform.

I can, as an end user, develop legal and fully functional transaction systems because I as the user am the authority of the transaction.

With credit cards, you functionally borrow transaction authority from a trusted party, and "trust" their ledgers.

The fundamental basis of crypto requires cryptographic signatures, which don't require trust.

Also, you don't have to worry about whether banks like what you sell. Sell porn? Banks don't want to even be associated with the account. Sell drugs? The only banks that hold such won't hold yours, because you aren't involved with their dirty clients.

Crypto transactors don't have a worry about that.
 

Harry Bosch

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Crypto does not require trust-based banking. I can send you money, you can send me money, and the transaction gets processed by the users of the platform.

I can, as an end user, develop legal and fully functional transaction systems because I as the user am the authority of the transaction.

With credit cards, you functionally borrow transaction authority from a trusted party, and "trust" their ledgers.

The fundamental basis of crypto requires cryptographic signatures, which don't require trust.

Also, you don't have to worry about whether banks like what you sell. Sell porn? Banks don't want to even be associated with the account. Sell drugs? The only banks that hold such won't hold yours, because you aren't involved with their dirty clients.

Crypto transactors don't have a worry about that.
Yes, I see this. Can crypto users get a cut of the profits from the transitions? I get 2% from my credit card back.
 

Jarhyn

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Crypto does not require trust-based banking. I can send you money, you can send me money, and the transaction gets processed by the users of the platform.

I can, as an end user, develop legal and fully functional transaction systems because I as the user am the authority of the transaction.

With credit cards, you functionally borrow transaction authority from a trusted party, and "trust" their ledgers.

The fundamental basis of crypto requires cryptographic signatures, which don't require trust.

Also, you don't have to worry about whether banks like what you sell. Sell porn? Banks don't want to even be associated with the account. Sell drugs? The only banks that hold such won't hold yours, because you aren't involved with their dirty clients.

Crypto transactors don't have a worry about that.
Yes, I see this. Can crypto users get a cut of the profits from the transitions? I get 2% from my credit card back.
Crypto users see a different benefit than from profits and Cashback. There is a significant percentage of every transaction, much in line with the Satoshi cost of processing a crypto transaction, that is soaked by someone in most CC transactions, and an additional social cost insofar as the primary vehicle to spend money currently is the same one that accrues debt.

That 2% you get is farmed from the 18% paid by others trying to get that 2% but not understanding about interest.

More, crypto is targeted at transactions that occur in "black" moneyspace rather than "red" moneyspace in the first place so structures like that, and bleeds, well, they aren't supposed to be happening which is why this DeFi bullshit is so fucking annoying, and honestly stupid.

You have a currency engineered to prevent deficit use and people are trying to bring in deficit loan banking?

The whole point was a currency you can't flake out on.
 

Loren Pechtel

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
The people who want to move money around tracelessly--drug dealers etc.
 

Jarhyn

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
The people who want to move money around tracelessly--drug dealers etc.
Or whom banks refuse to accept transactions of "because they don't want to be associated with ____"
 

bilby

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Most currencies are based on something other than confidence - They are based on taxation.

You can use any currencies you like, but when Uncle Sam comes a-knocking, he won’t take anything other than US Dollars.

So regardless of how much, or how little, confidence people have in the greenback, anyone who pays tax in the United States has to buy enough of them to pay their taxes. Even if this were the only time people bought US$, it would put a floor under the value of the currency that is not present for currencies in which nobody is required to pay their taxes.

The same applies to the euro, Yen, Pound Sterling, Australian Dollar, and most other national currencies - as long as there is a government that will accept nothing else, and that can require people to pay tax to them, those currencies are supported by the demand for them that taxpayers are forced to have, no matter how little confidence they might have in their value.

Indeed, that’s what confidence IS - the expectation that you will be able to exchange the currency for something else.

If the US$ collapses, people will still be able to exchange them for “not being incarcerated by agents of the IRS”, even if nobody else will accept them as payment for anything else. But that means that people will accept them as payment for other things - because those people don’t want to be incarcerated by IRS agents either, so they need to obtain sufficient of them to pay their taxes.
 

ramoss

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Most currencies are based on something other than confidence - They are based on taxation.

You can use any currencies you like, but when Uncle Sam comes a-knocking, he won’t take anything other than US Dollars.

So regardless of how much, or how little, confidence people have in the greenback, anyone who pays tax in the United States has to buy enough of them to pay their taxes. Even if this were the only time people bought US$, it would put a floor under the value of the currency that is not present for currencies in which nobody is required to pay their taxes.

The same applies to the euro, Yen, Pound Sterling, Australian Dollar, and most other national currencies - as long as there is a government that will accept nothing else, and that can require people to pay tax to them, those currencies are supported by the demand for them that taxpayers are forced to have, no matter how little confidence they might have in their value.

Indeed, that’s what confidence IS - the expectation that you will be able to exchange the currency for something else.

If the US$ collapses, people will still be able to exchange them for “not being incarcerated by agents of the IRS”, even if nobody else will accept them as payment for anything else. But that means that people will accept them as payment for other things - because those people don’t want to be incarcerated by IRS agents either, so they need to obtain sufficient of them to pay their taxes.
And, when the trust in the government goes, and the economy goes, so goes that government's currency. The dollar does not have any actual intrinsic value. It's not like money is minted from precious metals anymore.
 

bilby

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Most currencies are based on something other than confidence - They are based on taxation.

You can use any currencies you like, but when Uncle Sam comes a-knocking, he won’t take anything other than US Dollars.

So regardless of how much, or how little, confidence people have in the greenback, anyone who pays tax in the United States has to buy enough of them to pay their taxes. Even if this were the only time people bought US$, it would put a floor under the value of the currency that is not present for currencies in which nobody is required to pay their taxes.

The same applies to the euro, Yen, Pound Sterling, Australian Dollar, and most other national currencies - as long as there is a government that will accept nothing else, and that can require people to pay tax to them, those currencies are supported by the demand for them that taxpayers are forced to have, no matter how little confidence they might have in their value.

Indeed, that’s what confidence IS - the expectation that you will be able to exchange the currency for something else.

If the US$ collapses, people will still be able to exchange them for “not being incarcerated by agents of the IRS”, even if nobody else will accept them as payment for anything else. But that means that people will accept them as payment for other things - because those people don’t want to be incarcerated by IRS agents either, so they need to obtain sufficient of them to pay their taxes.
And, when the trust in the government goes, and the economy goes, so goes that government's currency. The dollar does not have any actual intrinsic value. It's not like money is minted from precious metals anymore.
It’s not like gold has much intrinsic value. It’s only valuable for the same reason bitcoin is - people expect (trust) others to accept it as being valuable. The expected spot price of a commodity metal with few practical uses, and which has stockpiles of unused refined metal sitting idle in warehouses (such as Fort Knox) in vast quantities, is pretty small. Gold isn’t useful for much except dentistry and jewellery, and there’s more than enough inventory of the stuff to flood both markets, as well as those such as electronics and optical coatings that only use tiny amounts anyway. Paper money may be more intrinsically valuable than gold - you can’t wipe your arse with a gold bar.

But you don’t need to trust the government in order to pay taxes - you just need to fear them.
 

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
The people who want to move money around tracelessly--drug dealers etc.
Or whom banks refuse to accept transactions of "because they don't want to be associated with ____"
Or, lower fees for transactions.
 

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(Disclaimer: I know a LITTLE about Bitcoin and nothing whatsoever about any other cryptocoin. Life is too short to be interested in uninteresting details.)

Recently I was directed (via this thread?) to a conversation on a message-board devoted to cryptocoins. A noobie complained that one coin seemed to be a scam. The experienced coin-jockey laughed and said they're ALL scams; the trick is to jump off before the bubbles burst.

I hear that one crypto-coin was designed to be always worth exactly one U.S. Dollar! This seemed to contradict the whole idea of cryptocoins, which is to ride a tulip-like bull to heights of glory or depths of despair. Evidently the crypto-fans also found the idea of a stable coin hilarious — TerraUSD and LUNA coins lost tens of billions in value in one tumultuous week. In the olden times that loss would be a big deal. Nowadays, it's old news: stay tuned for a bigger financial disaster next week!

What happened to Beanie Babies? At least its bubbling boomers still have their dolls. Do those left with Terra-coins at least get a T-shirt?

And by the way, the BitCoin "blockchain," instead of being kept in a refrigerated vault in "Iron Mountain" like BankOfAmerica's records, is just bounced around a network of anarchists. To call it "democratic" ignores that it isn't "one man one vote" or even "One coin one vote." Has anyone studied what percent of the bit-mining capacity would have to be controlled by China (or Russia or Charles Koch) for them to push aside any blockchain blocks not to their liking? I guess part of the protection against that is the $25 Billion annual cost of Bitcoin mining. (There's that pesky 'B' again. That figure is based on the global average electricity price. I guess much mining is in cheap-electricity Iceland where BitCoin mining may now be a major component of Iceland's economy!)

And there's no value-added in BitCoin. If you bought the Coin for a nickel and sold for a dime you won't care about the $25 Billion, but if you bought for a dime and sold for a nickel you can write "I helped pay for that wasted CO2 :) " on your T-shirt.

Crypto does not require trust-based banking. I can send you money, you can send me money, and the transaction gets processed by the users of the platform.

. . . Also, you don't have to worry about whether banks like what you sell. . . .

Crypto transactors don't have a worry about that.

Banks (and central-bank money) in the prosperous democracies have a pretty good track record in recent decades of preserving value for users. Could this change overnight when the next financial crisis dwarfs the 2008 crisis in scale? Sure. But do you really think BitCoin will hold up while Dollar, Euro and Yen are plummeting?

And these defenses of cryptocoin seem to acknowledge that their main "legitimate" use is to finance illegitimate transactions. Note moreover that devices to help the rich hide their profits are NOT a path to lessen income inequality.

Finally "transaction gets processed by the users of the platform" is somewhat misleading. Doesn't a BitCoin transaction require that a fee be offered to the Miner? And, the user waits an hour or so, sees if his transaction has been mined; if not, he resubmits offering a higher fee. It's to avoid that bother that most BitCoin "investors" use an exchange, giving them the worst of both worlds. Ask the customers of Gerald Cotten how they feel about BitCoin's oh-so-very-clever security.

Most currencies are based on something other than confidence - They are based on taxation.
And, when the trust in the government goes, and the economy goes, so goes that government's currency. The dollar does not have any actual intrinsic value. It's not like money is minted from precious metals anymore.
Central-bank money is based on more than just taxation. The FRB has committed to try to keep the dollar's value at 98% of the previous year's $1 consumer basket. (They do this primarily to support banks and businesses, not consumers. Obviously the 98% target may fall short, as it has in 2022.) Anyway, most dollars are held temporarily and funneled into land, houses, stocks, or interest-producing paper.

I'm as pessimistic as the next guy, and one day our grandchildren may say "Fiat money?? What in hell were they thinking of???" Dollars, euros, yen —maybe they'll all end up like the Bubbling Tulips in the 18th century. But you think BitCoins aren't a Bubble also? Let me sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.
 

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Ask the customers of Gerald Cotten how they feel about BitCoin's oh-so-very-clever security
So, I'm just discussing the facts about cryptocurrency as to how it's used.

The illegitimacy of the majority of actual use of bitcoins does not really change the fact that's how they are used.

On one side is an ecosystem of money laundering, and on the other side is a system of people riding bubbles generated largely by the money laundering. The whole thing is a disgusting waste.

The issue is that the concepts discovered in cryptocurrency markets have applicability and value if applied to a real currency, and the fact is, trustless postal banking is very appealing as a concept.

As to 'transaction fees', they are essentially bounties offered on bidding a transaction into a block. The miner tries a collection of random transactions, and when the transaction gets processed successfully to a block, the transaction is confirmed, which then carries to later blocks.

One feature of cryptocurrency tech are multisig wallets and multisig transactions.

I will point out that as long as drugs are illegal, this stupidity will continue.
 

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Another bites the dust, declares bankruptcy. Celsius appears to be close to getting there officially as well. They had assets between $1 billion and $10 billion, but of course, when the funny money drops 75%, and you don't actually hold any real assets, that can disappear quick!
 

Harry Bosch

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Another bites the dust, declares bankruptcy. Celsius appears to be close to getting there officially as well. They had assets between $1 billion and $10 billion, but of course, when the funny money drops 75%, and you don't actually hold any real assets, that can disappear quick!
Yea, it's really going to be brutal. Feel bad for people that bought in around the peak. All that bad debt from the real estate crash in 2009 and 10 was at least backed up with homes that were overvalued by 20 or 30%. Some even by 50%. But they were still homes that eventually someone would want to buy in the future. Nothing is holding up the crypto currencies.
 

Jarhyn

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Another bites the dust, declares bankruptcy. Celsius appears to be close to getting there officially as well. They had assets between $1 billion and $10 billion, but of course, when the funny money drops 75%, and you don't actually hold any real assets, that can disappear quick!
Yea, it's really going to be brutal. Feel bad for people that bought in around the peak. All that bad debt from the real estate crash in 2009 and 10 was at least backed up with homes that were overvalued by 20 or 30%. Some even by 50%. But they were still homes that eventually someone would want to buy in the future. Nothing is holding up the crypto currencies.
Which is why it's going to be so funny when a large number of really wealthy people lose all their money because they bought into the secondary "front" scam of a money laundering operation.
 

TV and credit cards

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Another bites the dust, declares bankruptcy. Celsius appears to be close to getting there officially as well. They had assets between $1 billion and $10 billion, but of course, when the funny money drops 75%, and you don't actually hold any real assets, that can disappear quick!
Yea, it's really going to be brutal. Feel bad for people that bought in around the peak. All that bad debt from the real estate crash in 2009 and 10 was at least backed up with homes that were overvalued by 20 or 30%. Some even by 50%. But they were still homes that eventually someone would want to buy in the future. Nothing is holding up the crypto currencies.
Which is why it's going to be so funny when a large number of really wealthy people lose all their money because they bought into the secondary "front" scam of a money laundering operation.
Average Joe responsible for the wellbeing of a family will do this too. I seen it back in '99. They'll go all in and jack up their credit cards to boot all in the hopes of the big score. Foolish? Irresponsible? Yes. But we tend not to find the humor in it.
What's needed is the government to hold clampdown on this crap before it gets started because I'd bet it's not Average Joe who got in and out early. Average Joe's always bringing up the rear. Average Joe gets left standing when the music stops.
 

Artemus

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Another bites the dust, declares bankruptcy. Celsius appears to be close to getting there officially as well. They had assets between $1 billion and $10 billion, but of course, when the funny money drops 75%, and you don't actually hold any real assets, that can disappear quick!
Shortly after this implosion started someone in a comment section on ArsTechnica said to check out the CelsiusNetwork subreddit for "Free SchaudenCoins." That was so brilliant I had to check it out and have been trapped watching the train wreck ever since. They had no idea that, per the terms of service, they were giving their "deposits" away and think that it is great that Celsius is using their crypto to pay off its own debt. And worse yet, those that have finally realized that they'll never get their deposits back are saying how they will build back by buying more crypto but will put keep their wallet themselves this time. The assumptions (outright stated in most cases) are that a) it will of course cycle up again, b) they'll know exactly when to cash out this time because they are so much smarter now, and c) they would never lose their wallet somehow.

Seriously, it is difficult to feel sorry for any of them.
 

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Jebus! Those people still hoping. Read one thread where they wanted to figure out how they could prove what they had in assets. They don't seem to get it. Celsius was a scam that'd only work if the crypto kept increasing.

They don't understand that you can't get blood from a stone, even if you prove you had lots of blood in the "bank". Their terms of services should have been illegal and they shouldn't have been allowed to exist, but this is America, we only prevent something from happening again.
 

Jarhyn

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Jebus! Those people still hoping. Read one thread where they wanted to figure out how they could prove what they had in assets. They don't seem to get it. Celsius was a scam that'd only work if the crypto kept increasing.

They don't understand that you can't get blood from a stone, even if you prove you had lots of blood in the "bank". Their terms of services should have been illegal and they shouldn't have been allowed to exist, but this is America, we only prevent something from happening again.
Do we even do that much, though?
 

bilby

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Jebus! Those people still hoping. Read one thread where they wanted to figure out how they could prove what they had in assets. They don't seem to get it. Celsius was a scam that'd only work if the crypto kept increasing.

They don't understand that you can't get blood from a stone, even if you prove you had lots of blood in the "bank". Their terms of services should have been illegal and they shouldn't have been allowed to exist, but this is America, we only prevent something from happening again.
Do we even do that much, though?
Nope. You only prevent something from happening again in precisely the same way. Variations on the theme are left to the imaginations of the scammers.

It’s not as though the core scam this time is substantially different from the scheme developed by Mr Ponzi. He just didn’t have computers, and had to issue worthless paper rather than worthless blockchains.
 

Swammerdami

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Which is why it's going to be so funny when a large number of really wealthy people lose all their money because they bought into the secondary "front" scam of a money laundering operation.

Really wealthy people may not be really smart, but they aren't really stupid either. Their crypto investments are just one niche in their diversified wealth: stocks, bonds, hedge funds, thoroughbred horses, farmland, paintings and yachts.

The big losers will be nouveaux, many barely out of their teens.
 

Artemus

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The train wreck on the CelsiusNetwork subreddit has worsened. From a lawsuit filed against Celsius by a former fund manager (quoted in a comment in this thread :
86. Celsius had massive liabilities to depositors denominated in ether but had not
maintained ETH holdings equal to those liabilities. Instead, Celsius had authorized DeFi strategies that resulted in the shifting of assets from ether to other cryptocurrencies and (inexplicably) had failed to hedge against this well-known risk.
87. As customers sought to withdraw their ether deposits, Celsius was forced to buy
ether in the open market at historically high prices, suffering heavy losses. Faced with a liquidity
crisis, Celsius began to offer double-digit interest rates in order to lure new depositors, whose
funds were used to repay earlier depositors and creditors. Thus, while Celsius continued to market
itself as a transparent and well capitalized business, in reality, it had become a Ponzi scheme.

ETA: Full lawsuit filed is available here.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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The "A-word" is mentioned a lot, assets. And I'm thinking they don't really have assets, they have funny money... which has depreciated a lot. It is one thing to have $1,000,000,000 in digital currency. It is another if you spent $3,000,000,000 acquiring it. Others keep saying to print out their asset statements to prove what they had. It sounds like these were merely screen shots to be used to try and get some money back in the bankruptcy. The denial right now is shielding the bitter reality of what they loss.

There are some threads there about the loss of all their money, postings for suicide prevention hotlines. One guy said he was just using it temporarily for the interest rate. It clearly wasn't sustainable, too good to be true. One of the posts was talking about them paying back their cronies for the loans. Personally, I was pondering something like le Chiffre and paying back as much dark money possible, because of potentially ugly endings involving wicker furniture.

Back to digitial funny money, Bitcoin tried to bump up to $22k and failed again, back down to just below $20k.
 

Jarhyn

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The "A-word" is mentioned a lot, assets. And I'm thinking they don't really have assets, they have funny money... which has depreciated a lot. It is one thing to have $1,000,000,000 in digital currency. It is another if you spent $3,000,000,000 acquiring it. Others keep saying to print out their asset statements to prove what they had. It sounds like these were merely screen shots to be used to try and get some money back in the bankruptcy. The denial right now is shielding the bitter reality of what they loss.

There are some threads there about the loss of all their money, postings for suicide prevention hotlines. One guy said he was just using it temporarily for the interest rate. It clearly wasn't sustainable, too good to be true. One of the posts was talking about them paying back their cronies for the loans. Personally, I was pondering something like le Chiffre and paying back as much dark money possible, because of potentially ugly endings involving wicker furniture.

Back to digitial funny money, Bitcoin tried to bump up to $22k and failed again, back down to just below $20k.
It's automated investment systems set up by the least idiotic of the suckers causing boundary points at what should be predictable numbers: 20k and 10% of 20k.
 

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Interest charges. Credit cards charge credit card fees to business, while the crypto fees are much less.
 

Jarhyn

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Interest charges. Credit cards charge credit card fees to business, while the crypto fees are much less.
Not to mention you don't have to apply for or have credit to have and spend crypto.

No bank can decline your account.

All you need is to know how to generate a wallet.
 

ramoss

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Interest charges. Credit cards charge credit card fees to business, while the crypto fees are much less.
Not to mention you don't have to apply for or have credit to have and spend crypto.

No bank can decline your account.

All you need is to know how to generate a wallet.
There are disadvantages right now. Highly volitile. if you lose the pw to the wallet, your assets are gone, if you lose the wallet, your assets are gone.
 

Jarhyn

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It's value is based on absolutely nothing at all, so confidence that other people will continue joining in at the bottom of the pyramid scheme is the only thing which keeps it making money. This means that the more people who have issues with it, the less suckers there are to bleed dry. The people who understand what bitcoin is (or rather, what it isn't) have been raking in the cash, but there comes a point where they need to decide whether or not it's time to cut their losses because too many have caught onto their scam. Once more of those start saying that it's time, the descending spiral begins.
There isn't a currency in the world that isn't based on anything but confidence. Right now, the problem is a lot of the cryptocurrancies are being treated as a commodity in the marketplace, rather than a currency. Crypto's should be used as an alternative to credit cards, not as an alternative for investing.
Well, that is pretty interesting. What would be the advantage of using crypto rather than credit cards?
Interest charges. Credit cards charge credit card fees to business, while the crypto fees are much less.
Not to mention you don't have to apply for or have credit to have and spend crypto.

No bank can decline your account.

All you need is to know how to generate a wallet.
There are disadvantages right now. Highly volitile. if you lose the pw to the wallet, your assets are gone, if you lose the wallet, your assets are gone.
And so the secure storage of information like wallet seed is important..

In some respects the wallet is like cash. If you really want a third party to transactions though you can always run multi-sig.
 

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Meanwhile, there is still optimism in the Celsius Reddit. And there was a thread about "telling your wife" about the losses. One guy said she took it like a pro... and I'm thinking... 'but you are still alive'. I mean, the crazier aspect of this is having had invested in crypto wasn't reckless enough. Then they needed to deposit (as in give) a fake bank the coins at interest rates that were insanely suspicious.

Bitcoin is busting above $23k, which means... well, nothing. Other than the 'fortune favors the people that sold to the "bold"' folks are just $20k to $30k shy of breaking even, if they don't "hold" their "deposits" at a bank that went belly up.
 

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I'm glad I listened to Steven Miller when I found my old bitcoin wallet. Hoo-hoo
 

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Tesla dumped a huge chunk of its Bitcoin;

Electric car maker Tesla (TSLA) sold $936 million worth of bitcoin during the second quarter, the company said Wednesday, citing uncertainties related to COVID-19 shutdowns in China. Tesla's remaining digital asset holdings total $218 million, a sharp drop from its previous stash of $1.2 billion, which had gone untouched over the previous three quarters. "As of the end of Q2, we have converted approximately 75% of our Bitcoin purchases into fiat currency. Conversions in Q2 added $936M of cash to our balance sheet," the company said in its earnings release.

Yahoo
 

Jimmy Higgins

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How in the world is this even legal?
article said:
According to proceedings that have been made public in recent times, Celsius Network may not have the best interest of its users at heart. The bankruptcy lawyers hired by the lending firm have begun to argue that users had relinquished their legal right to their funds when they deposited them on the platform. This took place on Monday during the first bankruptcy hearing, and the lawyers referred to the Terms of Service of the Earn and Borrow accounts to back up their claim.
It is incredible that such an agreement can exist. The ToS stated that Earn and Borrow deposits were less deposits and more just giving Celsius Network your money with a loose promise to give it back, if they want to.

The more interesting thing is the nearly admitted pyramid scheme this is. According to this article:
article said:
In Celsius’s bankruptcy filing, which it made late Wednesday in a New York court, it claims to have US$167-million in cash on hand. The filing says the company has US$4.3-billion in assets and US$5.5-billion in liabilities.
Typically, 80% assets to liabilities isn't a terrible thing. Shouldn't be the end of the world. Of course, if they opened back up, deposits would be immediately withdrawn and then the assets would evaporate, and then that percentage is MUCH smaller.

And as of right now, they could technically be able to pay out 80% on "deposits", which right now, I'd say any and every rube that put money there would gladly take 80% on the dollar! But as shown above, they are claiming rights to all assets. Which shouldn't be remotely legal.
 

Artemus

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How in the world is this even legal?
article said:
According to proceedings that have been made public in recent times, Celsius Network may not have the best interest of its users at heart. The bankruptcy lawyers hired by the lending firm have begun to argue that users had relinquished their legal right to their funds when they deposited them on the platform. This took place on Monday during the first bankruptcy hearing, and the lawyers referred to the Terms of Service of the Earn and Borrow accounts to back up their claim.
It is incredible that such an agreement can exist. The ToS stated that Earn and Borrow deposits were less deposits and more just giving Celsius Network your money with a loose promise to give it back, if they want to.

The more interesting thing is the nearly admitted pyramid scheme this is. According to this article:
article said:
In Celsius’s bankruptcy filing, which it made late Wednesday in a New York court, it claims to have US$167-million in cash on hand. The filing says the company has US$4.3-billion in assets and US$5.5-billion in liabilities.
Typically, 80% assets to liabilities isn't a terrible thing. Shouldn't be the end of the world. Of course, if they opened back up, deposits would be immediately withdrawn and then the assets would evaporate, and then that percentage is MUCH smaller.

And as of right now, they could technically be able to pay out 80% on "deposits", which right now, I'd say any and every rube that put money there would gladly take 80% on the dollar! But as shown above, they are claiming rights to all assets. Which shouldn't be remotely legal.
A lot of that 80% is their own "CEL" tokens that are now worthless and approximately 100,000 mining rigs that they valued at what they paid for them last year and not what they could sell them for this year. I think the real number will be around 50% when the lawyers are done.
 

Harry Bosch

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How in the world is this even legal?
article said:
According to proceedings that have been made public in recent times, Celsius Network may not have the best interest of its users at heart. The bankruptcy lawyers hired by the lending firm have begun to argue that users had relinquished their legal right to their funds when they deposited them on the platform. This took place on Monday during the first bankruptcy hearing, and the lawyers referred to the Terms of Service of the Earn and Borrow accounts to back up their claim.
It is incredible that such an agreement can exist. The ToS stated that Earn and Borrow deposits were less deposits and more just giving Celsius Network your money with a loose promise to give it back, if they want to.

The more interesting thing is the nearly admitted pyramid scheme this is. According to this article:
article said:
In Celsius’s bankruptcy filing, which it made late Wednesday in a New York court, it claims to have US$167-million in cash on hand. The filing says the company has US$4.3-billion in assets and US$5.5-billion in liabilities.
Typically, 80% assets to liabilities isn't a terrible thing. Shouldn't be the end of the world. Of course, if they opened back up, deposits would be immediately withdrawn and then the assets would evaporate, and then that percentage is MUCH smaller.

And as of right now, they could technically be able to pay out 80% on "deposits", which right now, I'd say any and every rube that put money there would gladly take 80% on the dollar! But as shown above, they are claiming rights to all assets. Which shouldn't be remotely legal.
NM.
 
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