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Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her?

chrisengland

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Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her? I mean if they are forced into it doesn't that make a person who has sex with her as bad? I guess it would depend on what happens if they don't do it. If they are beaten or even killed then it could be.
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her? I mean if they are forced into it doesn't that make a person who has sex with her as bad? I guess it would depend on what happens if they don't do it. If they are beaten or even killed then it could be.

The vast majority of sex workers choose to be sex workers, and choose to have sex with their clients (in exchange for money).

Having sex with someone who consents is not rape.

Of course, it is possible to rape a prostitute - if (s)he says 'no' to you, or is otherwise forced to have sex with you against his or her will, and you proceed to have sex anyway; but that is not unique to prostitutes - it is the same for all persons with whom you might have sex.

Prostitution may or may not be illegal - that depends on the jurisdiction and on any other conditions that might be applied by the law in your location. But the legality of prostitution is not related to the legality of rape.

It is illegal to park on a yellow line under certain circumstances; and it is illegal to rob a bank; but that doesn't mean that parking on a yellow line outside a bank is bank robbery.

Around here, there are licensed prostitutes, and having sex with them is completely legal (as long as you don't leave without paying); and there are unlicensed prostitutes, and procuring them to provide sex for money is not legal, but it's not rape; and then there are people, some of whom are prostitutes, and some of whom are licensed, and raping any of them is a major crime, regardless.

By the way, not all prostitutes, and not all rape victims, are female.
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her? I mean if they are forced into it doesn't that make a person who has sex with her as bad? I guess it would depend on what happens if they don't do it. If they are beaten or even killed then it could be.

The vast majority of sex workers choose to be sex workers, and choose to have sex with their clients (in exchange for money).

Not entirely shore if that is true
 
The vast majority of sex workers choose to be sex workers, and choose to have sex with their clients (in exchange for money).

Not entirely shore if that is true

Well that's what they say when asked. The money is apparently pretty good.

This article from a couple of years ago suggests that the defendant was so keen to work as a prostitute that she broke the rules and borrowed her sister's health certificate; The idea that either sister would take the trouble to either obtain a certificate through the correct channels (or by breaking the rules), in order to work, strongly suggests that they were both keen to do the job.

Sure, it's a bit icky having sex with a bunch of strangers; but some people tolerate it better than others - and there are plenty of icky jobs out there that do not involve sex, where nobody suggests that the people doing the job are not there of their own free choice.

Cleaning public toilets is icky; but nobody forced me to do it - the wages were enough to persuade me to do the job, and nobody said I had to enjoy every minute of it.
 
Not entirely shore if that is true

Well that's what they say when asked. The money is apparently pretty good.

This article from a couple of years ago suggests that the defendant was so keen to work as a prostitute that she broke the rules and borrowed her sister's health certificate; The idea that either sister would take the trouble to either obtain a certificate through the correct channels (or by breaking the rules), in order to work, strongly suggests that they were both keen to do the job.

Sure, it's a bit icky having sex with a bunch of strangers; but some people tolerate it better than others - and there are plenty of icky jobs out there that do not involve sex, where nobody suggests that the people doing the job are not there of their own free choice.

Cleaning public toilets is icky; but nobody forced me to do it - the wages were enough to persuade me to do the job, and nobody said I had to enjoy every minute of it.


I haven't found any reliable statistics about how many prostitutes (of any gender) engage in prostitution voluntarily or are coerced into prostitution. Human trafficking usually means prostitution, almost always women and children who are tricked or coerced into prostitution in a foreign country. In such cases, it is generally the case that the sex workers actually retain almost nothing of any wages earned and are not free to leave the trade.

I wonder if the word 'keen' means something different on your side of the pond than mine.
 
It would depend on the kind of force. If they are forced into it in the sense they can't find another means to support themselves, rape is worst. If a third party pimp threatens to beat an otherwise non-prostitute, then permission isn't consent, so it's pretty bad in that case.
 
Well that's what they say when asked. The money is apparently pretty good.

This article from a couple of years ago suggests that the defendant was so keen to work as a prostitute that she broke the rules and borrowed her sister's health certificate; The idea that either sister would take the trouble to either obtain a certificate through the correct channels (or by breaking the rules), in order to work, strongly suggests that they were both keen to do the job.

Sure, it's a bit icky having sex with a bunch of strangers; but some people tolerate it better than others - and there are plenty of icky jobs out there that do not involve sex, where nobody suggests that the people doing the job are not there of their own free choice.

Cleaning public toilets is icky; but nobody forced me to do it - the wages were enough to persuade me to do the job, and nobody said I had to enjoy every minute of it.


I haven't found any reliable statistics about how many prostitutes (of any gender) engage in prostitution voluntarily or are coerced into prostitution.
And yet...
Human trafficking usually means prostitution, almost always women and children who are tricked or coerced into prostitution in a foreign country. In such cases, it is generally the case that the sex workers actually retain almost nothing of any wages earned and are not free to leave the trade.
It seems that despite no reliable statistics, you claim some detailed knowledge of Human trafficking, and are convinced that it is sufficiently common to be worth mentioning in this context. That's rather... odd.

I have heard of human trafficking, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest that it is commonplace in Australia, or indeed anywhere in the world; And there is good reason to think that its victims form a small minority of all sex workers, at least in my part of the world - most of the prostitutes I have encountered in my life have shown no sign at all of being in the industry against their will.

Insofar as human trafficking of prostitutes exists in Queensland, it is certainly not common in the legal parts of the industry - as the article I linked shows, even minor breaches of the paperwork requirements for sex workers in Queensland are detected and brought to court. Given that the authorities were quick to detect that two sisters were sharing a health certificate, it seems implausible in the extreme that foreign sex workers could be illegally brought into legal brothels here and made to work against their will.

I was on a management raining course with a guy who managed a brothel here in Brisbane, and his description of the compliance requirements and police and health authority inspection and audit rules was decidedly incompatible with running a brothel that is trying to conceal illegal activity.

Of course, any person who is forced to have sex (for money or not) against their will, is the victim of rape; But there is no reason to think that every prostitute is a rape victim, any more than there is reason to think that every taxi driver is the victim of a car-jacking.

I wonder if the word 'keen' means something different on your side of the pond than mine.
Did you read the linked article?

The defendant and her sister in the case being reported, and the magistrate before whom the defendant appears, all treat this case as an unexceptional violation of the applicable trading regulations, and the defendant is handed down a small fine for misrepresenting herself as having a certificate to practice that she does not in fact have - because she borrowed her sister's. There is no way that such a case could have arisen had either prostitute been unwilling to work in her chosen profession; The defendant in the case is so eager to work as a prostitute that she is willing to break the rules and start work before she has obtained the medical certification required by law. She later obtained that certificate, and the magistrate fined her $200, as a 'slap on the wrist' for not doing so before she started to work as a prostitute.

If somebody wants to take a job offer as, say, a taxi driver, and he works a few shifts before his private hire license has been issued, I would say that this showed he was keen to start his new job; If you don't agree that in both scenarios - the one in the article, and my fictional 'taxi driver' example - we have someone who is keen to do a job, then clearly your definition of 'keen' is very different from mine - and from that of the majority of the English speaking world.

Personally I would not want to be a prostitute, nor have I any interest in employing one. But I do know people who have been employed as prostitutes and they don't seem to have any complaints - it is well paid and not particularly arduous work, if you have the right temperament for it.
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her? I mean if they are forced into it doesn't that make a person who has sex with her as bad? I guess it would depend on what happens if they don't do it. If they are beaten or even killed then it could be.

You need to unpack a bunch of intertwined ideas.

1) Having sex with a prostitute is a good moral business transaction.
2) If someone is forced into prostitution the person doing the forcing needs to be locked up.
3) If you knowing use a prostitute who is forced into it, you are guilty by proxy.
4) Prostitution needs to be legalized and regulated so I can visit a prostitute that has a government stamp of approval and be fairly sure she is acting on her own volition.
 
Prostitution needs to be legal to be regulated.

Prostitutes can get planned parenthood counseling, psychological counseling (for so many issues, including the subject of addiction, gender violence, abusive relationships), vocational counseling, free vaccines and condoms, health education, and so on...

In other words, hell for Puritans. A society that cares for its sex workers instead of trying all they can to punish and/or shame them.
I can already hear the Puritan wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth...
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her? I mean if they are forced into it doesn't that make a person who has sex with her as bad? I guess it would depend on what happens if they don't do it. If they are beaten or even killed then it could be.

This is a special class of moral offensive known as second party transgressions. A second party transgression is when one knowingly benefits from a crime(sin) committed by another. The question becomes, "Is the person who buys a stolen iphone for $30, as much of a thief at the person who stole the iphone?" If there were no market for stolen goods, there would be no gain in theft, and thus, much fewer thieves. Everybody wins.

It gets complicated, after that because it all depends upon the initial crime. If prostitution is an offense against humanity, then any customer of a prostitute is also an offender. Humanity is a vague sort of victim. In the case of the coerced prostitute, he/she is a victim twice. Once when coerced, and second, when a customer arrives.

There are people who believe a moral offense must be an conscious primary action, but I don't think anyone would hold blameless the person who hires a hitman, but doesn't actually pull the trigger.
 
Nice analysis... But then is prostitution a sin morally reprobate action at all?

Premises, premises...
 
I haven't found any reliable statistics about how many prostitutes (of any gender) engage in prostitution voluntarily or are coerced into prostitution.
And yet...
Human trafficking usually means prostitution, almost always women and children who are tricked or coerced into prostitution in a foreign country. In such cases, it is generally the case that the sex workers actually retain almost nothing of any wages earned and are not free to leave the trade.
It seems that despite no reliable statistics, you claim some detailed knowledge of Human trafficking, and are convinced that it is sufficiently common to be worth mentioning in this context. That's rather... odd.

No, I did not claim 'detailed knowledge' of human trafficking. I am aware of the issue and that it is a global issue. In fact, even in my low population, largely rural upper midwest state, there have been recent efforts to combat sex trafficking of young girls. Some of them are foreign born or born to recently immigrated families but certainly not all of them are. I doubt that trafficking is limited to young girls. Because markets are larger and cities are more anonymous, the issue is larger in more densely populated areas.

I have heard of human trafficking, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest that it is commonplace in Australia, or indeed anywhere in the world; And there is good reason to think that its victims form a small minority of all sex workers, at least in my part of the world - most of the prostitutes I have encountered in my life have shown no sign at all of being in the industry against their will.

Well, as long as you don't think there's a problem I guess there isn't a problem. But apparently the Red Cross in Australia thinks it is a problem:

http://www.redcross.org.au/files/Trafficking_FAQs.PDF

And so does the University of Queensland:

Australia and Canada's records in combating human trafficking were among the worst in the developed world, according to a University of Queensland researcher.

"The true extent of this problem is not fully known, largely due to the clandestine nature of this phenomenon and the taboo nature of the sex industry," Dr Schloenhardt said.

"Reports about the number of trafficked persons in Canada and Australia vary greatly depending on the source of information.

"Government agencies suggest that several hundred persons are trafficked into both countries every year while non-governmental organisations and advocacy groups argue that this trade involves several thousand people."

Dr Schloenhardt said the current prostitution licensing scheme and increased regulation of the sex industry sought to limit the exploitation of sex workers.

However, a recent prosecution in Far North Queensland for sexual servitude and the discovery of 10 Korean "sex slaves" in Sydney by law enforcement and immigration authorities in early March 2008 were evidence that non-citizens are at particular risk, regardless of their legal status in Australia.
http://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2...sex-worker-exploitation-and-human-trafficking

Insofar as human trafficking of prostitutes exists in Queensland,

I know that you live in Queensland but I thought Chrisengland lived in England. Maybe I was wrong.

Insofar as human trafficking of prostitutes exists in Queensland, it is certainly not common in the legal parts of the industry - as the article I linked shows, even minor breaches of the paperwork requirements for sex workers in Queensland are detected and brought to court. Given that the authorities were quick to detect that two sisters were sharing a health certificate, it seems implausible in the extreme that foreign sex workers could be illegally brought into legal brothels here and made to work against their will.

I was on a management raining course with a guy who managed a brothel here in Brisbane, and his description of the compliance requirements and police and health authority inspection and audit rules was decidedly incompatible with running a brothel that is trying to conceal illegal activity.

And yet, the legalization and regulation of prostitution (I note that the manager is male) has not eliminated illegal prostitution. Why?

Of course, any person who is forced to have sex (for money or not) against their will, is the victim of rape; But there is no reason to think that every prostitute is a rape victim, any more than there is reason to think that every taxi driver is the victim of a car-jacking.

Of course. But it is much easier to know that a cab driver is driving a cab because he wants to drive a cab.
I wonder if the word 'keen' means something different on your side of the pond than mine.
Did you read the linked article?

I did read the article. I noticed the young woman confessed to being too lazy to get her certificate but nothing about being keen to be a prostitute. When I was keen to travel outside of my country, I got a passport. It involved some time and cost but I did it. So, I wondered if 'keen' meant something different down under. Here, 'keen' isn't used very often generally it means eager, not willing to put up with it if it isn't too much trouble and you really need the money.

The defendant and her sister in the case being reported, and the magistrate before whom the defendant appears, all treat this case as an unexceptional violation of the applicable trading regulations, and the defendant is handed down a small fine for misrepresenting herself as having a certificate to practice that she does not in fact have - because she borrowed her sister's. There is no way that such a case could have arisen had either prostitute been unwilling to work in her chosen profession; The defendant in the case is so eager to work as a prostitute that she is willing to break the rules and start work before she has obtained the medical certification required by law. She later obtained that certificate, and the magistrate fined her $200, as a 'slap on the wrist' for not doing so before she started to work as a prostitute.

But you notice, I never claimed all prostitutes were coerced or trafficked.

If somebody wants to take a job offer as, say, a taxi driver, and he works a few shifts before his private hire license has been issued, I would say that this showed he was keen to start his new job;

Or not so keen on complying with the rules and regulations of his trade. Because that's his personality or because he is desperate for some reason.
If you don't agree that in both scenarios - the one in the article, and my fictional 'taxi driver' example - we have someone who is keen to do a job, then clearly your definition of 'keen' is very different from mine - and from that of the majority of the English speaking world.

I think you are inferring a state of mind: keeness to be a prostitute or keeness to work shifts driving a cab. You're certainly entitled to infer what you choose, particularly in your made up scenario. But that doesn't mean that preferring not to go through the time, trouble and expense of becoming legally licensed to practice a trade is the same thing as being keen to practice the trade.

Personally I would not want to be a prostitute, nor have I any interest in employing one. But I do know people who have been employed as prostitutes and they don't seem to have any complaints - it is well paid and not particularly arduous work, if you have the right temperament for it.

Well, it is the job of the prostitutes to ensure that their johns have no complaints. Oh, maybe you meant the prostitutes have no complaints. Well, again, it is the job of prostitutes to ensure that their johns have no complaints. Their business would likely drop off quite a bit if they openly expressed horror, reluctance, disgust or boredom or fatigue.
 
If she was forced into it (and not merely by economics) then it's rape as she wasn't actually consenting.

Otherwise it's simply business.
 
The only way to come separate the forced and unforced prostitutes is to leagalize and regulate. They should be licensed. They should have mandatory health checks for STDs. Most customers of prostitutes don't want to catch STDs and don't want to be involved in human trafficing. They will seek out the licensed and above board ones if that is an option, and they are not at risk of getting in legal trouble.

Toni said:
And yet, the legalization and regulation of prostitution (I note that the manager is male) has not eliminated illegal prostitution. Why?

For the same reason that legalizing commerce hasn't eliminated theft.
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her?
Why does it matter if the person in question is a prostitute or not? It's an irrelevant designation.

You're asking if having sex with someone is as bad as raping him/her.
It's a badly worded question. Rape is a subset of "having sex" so the question becomes redundant.

You need to reword this. Relevant factors would be things like consent, age, competence, &c.
 
Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her?
Why does it matter if the person in question is a prostitute or not? It's an irrelevant designation.

You're asking if having sex with someone is as bad as raping him/her.
It's a badly worded question. Rape is a subset of "having sex" so the question becomes redundant.

You need to reword this. Relevant factors would be things like consent, age, competence, &c.
No rewording is necessary. Implicitly, the question being asked is:
Is every circumstance of having sex while being a prostitute equivalent to having sex while not consenting?

As crazy as it sounds, some people argue that the answer to that question is "yes." More reasonable people argue that, oftentimes, the circumstance of being a prostitute is a circumstance of non-consent.

There are many different kinds of sex workers. The lowest rung is probably the so-called "street-walker." Often times these persons, who can be women, men, or transpersons, are being exploited by another person, a pimp. Now, there are degrees of exploitation in the pimp-prostitute relationship, but most of the times if the person is being designated a "pimp" the implication is that the relationship is coercive and exploitative. Street walkers are oftentimes drug addicts, and usually don't have any other options. There is an almost certain probability that the sex worker is being exploited if not outright enslaved.

At the other extreme there are sex workers who are not exploited and who have plenty of other options. Often times, these persons have obtained post-secondary education levels but have decided they prefer sex work to other forms of work they could obtain. There are, for example, so-called "courtesans" who will market their services exclusively to wealthy clientele and can charge thousands of dollars per encounter. Sometimes these persons specialize in a particular fetish. Of course, between the street-walker and the courtesan there exist a myriad of different types of sex-workers. For example, there are also sex-workers who will market to middle-class or even working class clientele, so the price ranges are in the hundreds of dollars, but they are still working of their own free will and they are choosing sex work over other viable options. The point is, it isn't the money that necessarily decides whether sex work constitutes exploitation.

To prevent the exploitation of sex-workers, changing the legal environment of sex-work will probably go a long way. Unfortunately, I think that it will turn out to be even more important to change the attitudes of society towards sex-work and sex-workers.
 
This OP is the mother load for Euphemisms. Remove money and superiority and all sex is equal. Make the argument only based on sex. Don't insert one who eats apples and one who eats apples who eats apples and we have nothing left but sex.

Of course inequality changes things, most all things actually. Of course money changes things, most all things actually. Of course power changes things, most things actually. Get the picture?
 
Lode.

The phrase is 'Mother Lode'.

It originated as a concept amongst gold prospectors, who believed that the flecks of gold they were finding in rivers indicated the presence of a massive nugget or ore body - a lode - upstream of their workings. If they could find the 'Mother Lode', then they would be able to retire in luxury, rather than having to labour to recover tiny traces of alluvial gold that barely covered their costs.

The phrase 'Mother Load' on the other hand means "I use terminology that I don't understand, so I am probably not as clever as I would like you to think".
 
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