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Is it Time to Pull the Plug on the PATRIOT Act?

 
 
 
Nice Squirrel

Nice Squirrel

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http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/22/politics/patriot-act-debate-explainer-nsa/index.html

Two years after Edward Snowden exposed the National Security Agency's secret collection of the data of millions of Americans' private communications, the bulk of those programs remain intact.

But the key section of the Patriot Act that the NSA used to authorize that program is set to expire on June 1 -- unless Congress acts to reauthorize or reform that law.
There's now a chance they won't do either.
Click to expand...

But we are at Orange alert level ever since the 2004 elections!
 
Is there a case where this data collection by the NSA has actually led to actionable intelligence which stopped a terrorist attack?

I understand the classified nature of the program limits the details which can be released, but have they ever told the Senate oversight committee or anything that yes, it has stopped attacks?
 
I think they have told them that, but cannot give an instance. It might be one of those FBI stings where they radicalize the stupid and then entrap stop their terror plot.
 
Nice Squirrel said:
I think they have told them that, but cannot give an instance. It might be one of those FBI stings where they radicalize the stupid and then entrap stop their terror plot.
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Well, they should be able to give an instance to the oversight committee and have the committee members confirm that the program is generating actual results.
 
To be fair, I don't see that demonstrating that a wire intercept stopped a terrorist attack from happening is all that easy. I mean, how do you demonstrate that the attack definitely would have gone ahead, when so many don't?
 
Togo said:
To be fair, I don't see that demonstrating that a wire intercept stopped a terrorist attack from happening is all that easy. I mean, how do you demonstrate that the attack definitely would have gone ahead, when so many don't?
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It's a matter of cost/benefit analysis. If you're spending all these billions on this program and you can't demonstrate that you're getting any benefits from it in terms of increased security then the costs are unjustified and the program should be discontinued.

If you can demonstrate those benefits, then those benefits can be weighed against the legal and moral issues resulting from this far-reaching government surveillance to see if it's worth it.
 
RavenSky said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
It was time to pull the plug on it the day before the first panic vote.
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On this we agree
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No we don't. I disagree.

We need to bring decisions about using data to find and stop terrorists is justified.

Don't fear the 'other side' will use that to change behavior or that we aren't doing enough.
1. they probably won't
2. we are capable of adapting
3. there needs to be some comfort in security so
a. do it with visible oversight
b. adapt it as necessary with transparent justification

Can't cost more or be more divisive than it is right now.
 
Togo said:
To be fair, I don't see that demonstrating that a wire intercept stopped a terrorist attack from happening is all that easy. I mean, how do you demonstrate that the attack definitely would have gone ahead, when so many don't?
Click to expand...
What evidence is there of attacks that don't go ahead?
 
The only way the PATRIOT act and other things derived from the mindset that brought it about will be eradicated is when people in the country accept that a goal of zero successful terrorist attacks comes at an unacceptably high cost. In other words, the odd ball terrorist attack is just something that is part of the risk of living, the additional risk added is extremely small, and is not something that should be overreacted to in extreme excess.

Unfortunately, I don't see this underlying mindset dying any time soon. You can kill the PATRIOT act, but not the underlying mindset which gave rise to it. It will be back, if not beefed up further, the next time any sizable terrorist attack occurs. The only reason the act itself may die at this time is because there haven't been any sizable successful terrorist attacks since 9-11.
 
Nice Squirrel said:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/22/politics/patriot-act-debate-explainer-nsa/index.html

Two years after Edward Snowden exposed the National Security Agency's secret collection of the data of millions of Americans' private communications, the bulk of those programs remain intact.

But the key section of the Patriot Act that the NSA used to authorize that program is set to expire on June 1 -- unless Congress acts to reauthorize or reform that law.
There's now a chance they won't do either.
Click to expand...

But we are at Orange alert level ever since the 2004 elections!
Click to expand...

I think it is time to review it both in terms of national security and for privacy. I am more relating to the UK, but there are similar issues in the USA. Perhaps to extend the value of the Freedom of Information Act, files should be made accessible for public to reach online and have a right to review government data about themselves. There will still be violations by government agencies but hopefully Congress could come up with something that at least reduces this and allows citizens to check if they are under surveillance.
 
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