Is the concept of infinity real or imaginary?

[untermensche]

Humans did not discover infinity somewhere. They did not observe it.

Because it is not something that can be observed.

You cannot find infinity anywhere in nature.

It is a mathematical concept and exists by definition. Like zero. You can't observe zero either.

It is a mathematical concept that we have been able to use to solve mathematical problems.

Something that only exists as a mathematical concept and mathematical tool is imaginary, not real.

All I can say is I will defend any of this with argument if people disagree with arguments.

If people have opinions and claims but no actual arguments they should feel free to express them but that will not progress the conversation since only arguments can do that.

 

[untermensche]

Just for the record one coward afraid to actually make arguments has sent me a private message with a one word claim.

Here is the answer to that coward.

Your claim is not worth anything.

 

[bilby]

Still nope.

 

[untermensche]

Still nope.

Thanks for the opinion, unsupported by any argument.

As I said it doesn't accomplish anything.

It is in fact unresponsive to the OP.

It could be called many things.

But not rational discourse.

 

[untermensche]

So instead of making an argument some coward sent another message with the same worthless opinion.

Yes son, the opinion is noted.

You have an opinion you can support in no way.

Good for you.

But this is about arguments. Not the opinions of children.

 

[bilby]

Still nope.

Thanks for the opinion, unsupported by any argument.

As I said it doesn't accomplish anything.

It is in fact unresponsive to the OP.

It could be called many things.

But not rational discourse.

Nor cowardice, for that matter.

Nobody expects rational discourse from you on this subject. I wouldn't touch it with an infinitely long pole.

 

[untermensche]

Thanks for the opinion, unsupported by any argument.

As I said it doesn't accomplish anything.

It is in fact unresponsive to the OP.

It could be called many things.

But not rational discourse.

Nor cowardice, for that matter.

Nobody expects rational discourse from you on this subject. I wouldn't touch it with an infinitely long pole.

View attachment 11597

You speak for everybody?

YOUR opinion has been noted.

It is a worthless opinion because it is not supported in any way.

A rational human would comprehend that.

A child would post pictures of the opinion as if that gave it gravity.

 

[untermensche]

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

Infinity (symbol: ∞) is an abstract concept describing something without any bound or larger than any number. Philosophers have speculated about the nature of the infinite, such as Zeno of Elea, who proposed many paradoxes involving infinity, and Eudoxus of Cnidus, who used the idea of infinitely small quantities in his method of exhaustion. Modern mathematics uses the general concept of infinity in the solution of many practical and theoretical problems, such as in calculus and set theory, and the idea also is used in physics and the other sciences.

In mathematics, "infinity" is often treated as a number (i.e., it counts or measures things: "an infinite number of terms") but it is not the same sort of number as natural or real numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

So clearly somebody understands we are dealing with an imaginary made-up "abstract concept".

Are there really people who think it is something real?

Some strange primitive tribe that sees imaginary concepts as real entities?

 

[Phil Scott]

Humans did not discover infinity somewhere. They did not observe it.

Because it is not something that can be observed.

You cannot find infinity anywhere in nature.

It is a mathematical concept and exists by definition. Like zero. You can't observe zero either.

It is a mathematical concept that we have been able to use to solve mathematical problems.

Something that only exists as a mathematical concept and mathematical tool is imaginary, not real.

All I can say is I will defend any of this with argument if people disagree with arguments.

If people have opinions and claims but no actual arguments they should feel free to express them but that will not progress the conversation since only arguments can do that.

I'd like to see the argument that infinity cannot be found in nature. I might agree that it hasn't been found so far, but I don't see the impossibility. I might imagine some well-confirmed scientific theory which features a scalar variable that can have infinite value, for which there is a unique empirical consequence, and thus we can indirectly obtain evidence that the infinite quantity exists.

 

[untermensche]

I'd like to see the argument that infinity cannot be found in nature. I might agree that it hasn't been found so far, but I don't see the impossibility. I might imagine some well-confirmed scientific theory which features a scalar variable that can have infinite value, for which there is a unique empirical consequence, and thus we can indirectly obtain evidence that the infinite quantity exists.

We have infinity and we have not found infinity in nature yet.

So it is not unreasonable to say that it was not discovered by observing nature.

It was conceived, not discovered.

It is a pure conception.

An imaginary entity. And there is no reason to think it could ever be found in nature.

 

[Phil Scott]

I'd like to see the argument that infinity cannot be found in nature. I might agree that it hasn't been found so far, but I don't see the impossibility. I might imagine some well-confirmed scientific theory which features a scalar variable that can have infinite value, for which there is a unique empirical consequence, and thus we can indirectly obtain evidence that the infinite quantity exists.

We have infinity and we have not found infinity in nature yet.

So it is not unreasonable to say that it was not discovered by observing nature.

It was conceived, not discovered.

Sure. I agree with that.

But that goes for lots of stuff in modern physics. We figured out the idea of curved space before we ever observed it in nature. But I'd go out on a limb and say that curved space is real, and I don't see why we couldn't one day find out that infinity is real: that our best theories will contain a scalar parameter that occasionally takes an infinite value.

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An imaginary entity. And there is no reason to think it could ever be found in nature.

Can you give me an argument that it cannot?

 

[untermensche]

An imaginary entity. And there is no reason to think it could ever be found in nature.

Can you give me an argument that it cannot?

That is again asking to prove a negative.

But it has the same likelihood of existing as anything made up in the imagination.

So it has the same chance of existing as the talking cactus I just imagined.

And curved space was not simply a made-up concept.

It was a hypothesis about reality that could be tested.

Infinity is used in calculations. That is the only place it has purpose. Nowhere is it put forth as a hypothesis to explain natural phenomena. Nowhere serious.

 

[Phil Scott]

Can you give me an argument that it cannot?

That is again asking to prove a negative.

No. Philosophers have given arguments that infinities cannot exist in reality. William Lane Craig has popularised one, as has Alexander Pruss.

And curved space was not simply a made-up concept.

It was a hypothesis about reality that could be tested.

Not at the time that it was conceived. The framework of general relativity was needed first.

Infinity is used in calculations. That is the only place it has purpose. Nowhere is it put forth as a hypothesis to explain natural phenomena. Nowhere serious.

I'll try another example: complex numbers were first conceived, and weren't even dignified as real numbers. But four hundred years later, I'm told that there are physical quantities in quantum mechanics which have complex values.

That's real enough for me. I can't think of anything more serious than an empirically adequate theory.

 

[beero1000]

Humans did not discover infinity somewhere. They did not observe it.

Because it is not something that can be observed.

You cannot find infinity anywhere in nature.

It is a mathematical concept and exists by definition. Like zero. You can't observe zero either.

It is a mathematical concept that we have been able to use to solve mathematical problems.

Something that only exists as a mathematical concept and mathematical tool is imaginary, not real.

All I can say is I will defend any of this with argument if people disagree with arguments.

If people have opinions and claims but no actual arguments they should feel free to express them but that will not progress the conversation since only arguments can do that.

Can you give me an argument that it cannot?

That is again asking to prove a negative.

But it has the same likelihood of existing as anything made up in the imagination.

So it has the same chance of existing as the talking cactus I just imagined.

And curved space was not simply a made-up concept.

It was a hypothesis about reality that could be tested.

Infinity is used in calculations. That is the only place it has purpose. Nowhere is it put forth as a hypothesis to explain natural phenomena. Nowhere serious.

Well, that didn't take long...

 

[untermensche]

Can you give me an argument that it cannot?

That is again asking to prove a negative.

But it has the same likelihood of existing as anything made up in the imagination.

So it has the same chance of existing as the talking cactus I just imagined.

And curved space was not simply a made-up concept.

It was a hypothesis about reality that could be tested.

Infinity is used in calculations. That is the only place it has purpose. Nowhere is it put forth as a hypothesis to explain natural phenomena. Nowhere serious.

Well, that didn't take long...

That we can't find infinity in nature is a claim that doesn't have to be proven to make my point.

My claim is infinity is just an imaginative entity. I notice you didn't even try to address that.

That you can't find infinity in nature is just something that if somebody could prove the opposite it would destroy my argument.

I have to make the hypothesis falsifiable. I have to give those who think they can prove me wrong hope.

So thanks for giving it your all.

Maybe if you have an actual argument that addresses my claim you will return.

 

[untermensche]

I find this amazing.

When I make this claim in threads several big mouths scoff at it as if it is easily refuted.

But when these big mouths are actually given a chance to put some money where their big mouths are they can't be found.

You won't find many people with intelligence who think infinity is something real.

But you will find many with so-called intelligence trying to apply this imaginary concept to the real universe.

That is not very intelligent.

 

[PyramidHead]

I find this amazing.

When I make this claim in threads several big mouths scoff at it as if it is easily refuted.

But when these big mouths are actually given a chance to put some money where their big mouths are they can't be found.

You won't find many people with intelligence who think infinity is something real.

But you will find many with so-called intelligence trying to apply this imaginary concept to the real universe.

That is not very intelligent.

I think it's just that people don't like discussing things with you so they don't bother to post in your redundant thread.

 

[untermensche]

I find this amazing.

When I make this claim in threads several big mouths scoff at it as if it is easily refuted.

But when these big mouths are actually given a chance to put some money where their big mouths are they can't be found.

You won't find many people with intelligence who think infinity is something real.

But you will find many with so-called intelligence trying to apply this imaginary concept to the real universe.

That is not very intelligent.

I think it's just that people don't like discussing things with you so they don't bother to post in your redundant thread.

That sounds like a lame excuse.

If people don't want to play why do some of these children stalk me with nothing but ignorant insults?

And this thread is not redundant as far as I know.

You bothered to come and make your claims, veiled ridiculous insult actually.

Yet you never thought to actually give an opinion on the topic.

What do we normally call activity like that?

 

[PyramidHead]

I think it's just that people don't like discussing things with you so they don't bother to post in your redundant thread.

That sounds like a lame excuse.

If people don't want to play why do some of these children stalk me with nothing but ignorant insults?

And this thread is not redundant as far as I know.

You bothered to come and make your claims, veiled ridiculous insult actually.

Yet you never thought to actually give an opinion on the topic.

What do we normally call activity like that?

Look, I'm not going to explain to you how to act like a human being on the internet. Blaming the lack of interest in your thread on the childlike stupidity of your detractors is the kind of thing that might make people reconsider arguing with you on your own terms.

 

[untermensche]

Look, I'm not going to explain to you how to act like a human being on the internet. Blaming the lack of interest in your thread on the childlike stupidity of your detractors is the kind of thing that might make people reconsider arguing with you on your own terms.

Why come and not speak on the topic as if you are teaching me something?

I know that people don't like having to defend their opinions. I learned that a long time ago.

So when I make them have to defend their opinions they do not like me. Their dislike doesn't interest me at all.

I will discuss ideas and I will destroy bad ideas with vigor.

I understand people don't like trying to play that game.

But don't let any of them say I am like them.

I will defend any I idea I propose. I do not run from my claims as many here.