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Is the definition of transgender being watered down for political and not medical reasons?

repoman

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I think that for the most part, unless a person has an opposite gender brain (which is not a problem or "wrong" it just is) and therefore gender dysphoria they should not be considered transgender. I don't think it should be left up to personal whim which has the risk of attention seeking. A medical doctor should be involved in diagnosis. I don't even think that gender dysphoria is a standard mental illness (like bipolar or schizophrenia), it just is what happens when an opposite sex brain person feels distress in a body not in line with their brain.

This is an interesting video. Seems like maybe in the search for larger numbers of tansgender people to have more sway these organizations may be hurting true transgenders.

The aspect of gender norms seems like bullshit, there must be plenty of people who don't fit in with gender norms but feel completely happy with their body, not suffering with gender dysphoria.


 
It's a super simple problem to solve. Just stop gendering things. Why do bathrooms need to be gendered? Why do various drinks need to be gendered? Toys? Band-aids? Why does anything ever need to be gendered? Why not just let people chose for themselves? Best thing about it. We take the air out of these LGBTIXYZ-rights whiners. Don't get me wrong. I'm super in favour of gay rights. And I think it is an on-going problem. But this shit ain't helping.

People have genders. Stuff don't.

edit: BTW, forget who said it but the best line I've heard is that the crisis of the modern world is that we don't have any identity. The fact that you can chose and identity that you have to inform others of mean that you don't have it. Identity is something we don't need to advertise. We just need to identify it. You just have it. We can't chose it. We can analyse why we have it. But we're stuck with the identity we have. We label other people as whatever identity works for us. To make our lives easier. They're usually not something anybody will ever need to talk about. Doing so, unless you're a sociologist, adds nothing. If you want to be seen as something and you're usually not, well tough. Identities are context dependent. This is only a problem because we insist on enforcing gendering in society. We create separate sets of rules for men and women. For no reason. If we stop that nonsense and let people sort it out on their own, then trans people can just get on with just being themselves. No need to analyse anything. They can just do what feels right. Everybody wins.
 
Nope. Deleting my response. Fuck it. Wandered back to this site accidentally when the address autocompleted. Got suckered into looking around, and posted something forgetting how little I respect this place. My mistake. Apologies for taking up space.
 
This dude at Sam's Hair Salon in Wal Mart... he isn't a dude anymore. SHE cakes on make up but she looks alright now. Happy, like finally in her own skin. Two years ago she was on the ground level and now she bosses people around. Not smoking cigarettes was the key to her advancement, she said. A lot of time is wasted sneaking cigarettes. I compliment her with $5 tips and nice comments about her outfits. I'd never expose my penis to her, or let her touch it, but she is actually pretty attractive. Could fool any drunk man in a bar.

- - - Updated - - -

Apologies for taking up space.

Space is endless, no worries.
 
Who gives a rats ass about any of this?

There is no harm to me because somebody else is thinking other things.

Let them think it.

When it harms me or anybody I will take some notice.
 
I don't know about Transgender-ism being watered down for political gain. I mean the only reason trans people have so much political visibility now is because the fundies threw a fit over gay marriage and then decided to make this their next crusade in response. The biggest problem with transgender-ism today is that there's no reigns on it.


Once upon a time, I was a trans woman, and while being on hormones was an interesting experience that I don't really 'regret' it gave me a new lease on transgender-ism as a whole and how we treat it. During the entire process of seeking a therapist who specializes in trans people, to getting into a clinic, and getting my first doses of estrogen (Estradiol) and an anti-androgen (Spironolactane) went without any discernment from anyone. It's an interesting feeling to wake up one morning and realize that you've been bullshitting yourself, and that you've been hiding your feelings of inadequecy and a desire to be loved behind 'GD'. While I recognize that I am solely responsible for my decisions and that I can't really blame anyone else, it really doesn't speak well to the process that I can undergo a serious medical therapy with life altering implications without any real oversight or skepticism from the medical and mental health professionals I surrounded myself with.


The act of gate keeping according to certain gender expectations on the part of a given therapist may have not been ideal but it's important to have those expectations met because it helps weed out the ones who are aren't serious, and the ones who have a different problem all together. I may not have a lot of kind things to say about Milo, but in this regard, he was at least partially correct when he criticized how we currently treat gender dysphoria. There is no other mental illness I can name where the patient is given the impetus to define their own illness and the terms of their treatment.

These days I have no real disdain for transpeople, but I have a newfound skepticism for transgenderism and GD in general. I feel we treat it far too liberally and often in the same way that everyone and their dog from my generation was also put on ADD meds.

I feel there are a lot of people with self esteem and identity issues who, rather than try to grow into themselves and come into their own, choose instead the 'easy' way out and try to escape themselves.
 
I have a step-daughter who identifies as a boy but doesn't seem to show any signs of body hatred or gender dysphoria as such. She claimed that she just felt like she was a guy, and didn't feel comfortable being referred to as a girl. She doesn't 'present' as a boy for the most part, although she never wears clothes that are traditionally exclusively female. And she doesn't struggle with her biological sexual characteristics or want hormone therapy etc. She still uses the ladies' restroom without complaint. I've grappled with how to understand her for a while. It doesn't bother me of course, it's just something I have trouble placing in the proper context. If it's just a matter of rejecting gender norms and being her own person, why not just do that? Androgyny is cool, so why not just be androgynous in style and have whatever tastes/preferences she may have? I get that there is some discomfort around being called by her birth name and female pronouns, but I'm not sure what the source of that discomfort is, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with her body or appearance.
 
Anyone with any interest in ethical mental health responses to gender dyphoria or any issue related to gender/sex "equality" should care about this issue of the actual nature of transgenderism and its variants.

The widespread notion among many transgenders, some medical professionals, and the whole sex-change therapy/operation industry is a notion that some transgenders are objectively the opposite gender of their outward appearance and sex organs. This is the assumption underlying medical diagnoses that the proper "treatment" for the disorder is not dispelling such a notion but rather physically changing their body so it matches their psychology. Psychology is 100% the brain, so that means this notion assumes there is such a thing as biologically distinct "male" and "female" brains. That is the only way the notions of being "born an X in a Y body" or being "assigned the wrong gender" makes any sense.

However, that very assumption is something that many gender equality activists reject, by claiming that there are no meaningful neurological differences between the sexes. That position underlies that political (but not scientifically valid) notion that "gender" is purely a social construct. Any meaningful brain differences means psychological differences, which means at least some part of "gender" norms are likely biological. This in turn means that completely fair and non discriminatory systems will still produce significant differences in outcomes in all areas of life, including the workplace and economics generally. Since gender equality politics typical entails pointing to different outcomes as clear "evidence" of a discriminatory system, such activism typically must deny that the possibility of alternative explanations, which means denying any biologically-based psychological differences correlated with a person's sex.

The widespread view that gender is 100% manufactured inherently implies that there is no real biological basis for transgenderism and that it is nothing more than biological males and females freely choosing to prefer adopting the social role that norms have created and designated for the other biological sex, but a trans-male is no more an actual male than a person who thinks they are a dog is an actual dog. It means that treating the "disorder" with surgery is reckless and not medically sound and the proper treatment for those who suffer ill effects from this state would be psychological therapy to dissuade them of the delusion that they are innately the opposite gender when in fact that is impossible since all gender is just a made up fiction. Would a person who thought they were an actual bird and made miserable by not having wings be encouraged to get surgery to attach wings? Of course not. The ethics of the issue hinge upon the objective nature of and source of the atypical gender identity, and surgery becomes far less reasonable and ethical a solution if the gender identification is not in fact a product of innate neurological states that dispose people towards aspects of normative gender roles. Even then, sex-change surgery is arguably questionable, except as a last resort (therapy to help people accept that they don't have to "match" and they can have a body that is atypical given their psychological gender seems the first sensible route).

Note that I personally reject this notion that all transgenderism is basically a "choice", because like all scientifically knowledgeable people, I also reject the notion that gender itself is purely a social construct. I recognize the mountain of science showing that the same biology that creates bodily sex differences creates neurological differences with meaningful impact on most aspects of psychology, from emotions and interests to basic aspects of information processing, language comprehension, and reasoning. But since biologically-based sex differentiation has variability in it and "abnormalities" (in the statistical sense, not judgmental sense), that means there can sometimes be bodily sex differentiation that do not match the typical neurological (and thus behavioral) differentiation.

Thus, I recognize than there are likely a segment of the transgender population with very objectively real "mismatch" (relative to what is typical) between how their chromosomes shaped their bodily versus their neural sex-differentiation. At the same time, there are people without this objective physical state that merely are (for various learned/motivational reasons) choosing to adopt outward appearances of what is more typical of their opposite sex. I don't think society should be upset by that choice, but we should understand the difference between these types of "transgender" phenomena because it matters for the ethics and scientific validity of how we should help these people when they experience mental health issues.
 
Anyone with any interest in ethical mental health responses to gender dyphoria or any issue related to gender/sex "equality" should care about this issue of the actual nature of transgenderism and its variants.

The widespread notion among many transgenders, some medical professionals, and the whole sex-change therapy/operation industry is a notion that some transgenders are objectively the opposite gender of their outward appearance and sex organs. This is the assumption underlying medical diagnoses that the proper "treatment" for the disorder is not dispelling such a notion but rather physically changing their body so it matches their psychology. Psychology is 100% the brain, so that means this notion assumes there is such a thing as biologically distinct "male" and "female" brains. That is the only way the notions of being "born an X in a Y body" or being "assigned the wrong gender" makes any sense.

However, that very assumption is something that many gender equality activists reject, by claiming that there are no meaningful neurological differences between the sexes. That position underlies that political (but not scientifically valid) notion that "gender" is purely a social construct. Any meaningful brain differences means psychological differences, which means at least some part of "gender" norms are likely biological. This in turn means that completely fair and non discriminatory systems will still produce significant differences in outcomes in all areas of life, including the workplace and economics generally. Since gender equality politics typical entails pointing to different outcomes as clear "evidence" of a discriminatory system, such activism typically must deny that the possibility of alternative explanations, which means denying any biologically-based psychological differences correlated with a person's sex.

The widespread view that gender is 100% manufactured inherently implies that there is no real biological basis for transgenderism and that it is nothing more than biological males and females freely choosing to prefer adopting the social role that norms have created and designated for the other biological sex, but a trans-male is no more an actual male than a person who thinks they are a dog is an actual dog. It means that treating the "disorder" with surgery is reckless and not medically sound and the proper treatment for those who suffer ill effects from this state would be psychological therapy to dissuade them of the delusion that they are innately the opposite gender when in fact that is impossible since all gender is just a made up fiction. Would a person who thought they were an actual bird and made miserable by not having wings be encouraged to get surgery to attach wings? Of course not. The ethics of the issue hinge upon the objective nature of and source of the atypical gender identity, and surgery becomes far less reasonable and ethical a solution if the gender identification is not in fact a product of innate neurological states that dispose people towards aspects of normative gender roles. Even then, sex-change surgery is arguably questionable, except as a last resort (therapy to help people accept that they don't have to "match" and they can have a body that is atypical given their psychological gender seems the first sensible route).

Note that I personally reject this notion that all transgenderism is basically a "choice", because like all scientifically knowledgeable people, I also reject the notion that gender itself is purely a social construct. I recognize the mountain of science showing that the same biology that creates bodily sex differences creates neurological differences with meaningful impact on most aspects of psychology, from emotions and interests to basic aspects of information processing, language comprehension, and reasoning. But since biologically-based sex differentiation has variability in it and "abnormalities" (in the statistical sense, not judgmental sense), that means there can sometimes be bodily sex differentiation that do not match the typical neurological (and thus behavioral) differentiation.

Thus, I recognize than there are likely a segment of the transgender population with very objectively real "mismatch" (relative to what is typical) between how their chromosomes shaped their bodily versus their neural sex-differentiation. At the same time, there are people without this objective physical state that merely are (for various learned/motivational reasons) choosing to adopt outward appearances of what is more typical of their opposite sex. I don't think society should be upset by that choice, but we should understand the difference between these types of "transgender" phenomena because it matters for the ethics and scientific validity of how we should help these people when they experience mental health issues.

you know how transgender-ism derives its legitimacy from that one study that shows differences in brain scans between a person suffering from GD and regular people? You'd think if that were true then it would see widespread use as a requirement for a positive diagnosis.
 
I agree with zoidberg above. There is no need to assign genders to objects or to demand people conform to gender roles.

I also stand for unisex bathrooms etc, to which renders that whole which bathroom to use debate moot.

My only issue with the trans folks is when some of them insist we call them by this or that pronoun and put that into law. Jordan Peterson is right about this.
 
It's a super simple problem to solve. Just stop gendering things. Why do bathrooms need to be gendered? Why do various drinks need to be gendered? Toys? Band-aids? Why does anything ever need to be gendered? Why not just let people chose for themselves? Best thing about it. We take the air out of these LGBTIXYZ-rights whiners. Don't get me wrong. I'm super in favour of gay rights. And I think it is an on-going problem. But this shit ain't helping.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can undo the cultural demand for gendered stuff.

And there are some things that actually need to be gendered. Male incontinence pads are different than female ones. (Although what actually matters is your anatomy, not your "gender".)

People have genders. Stuff don't.

The Germans would disagree with you on this. :)
 
I have a step-daughter who identifies as a boy but doesn't seem to show any signs of body hatred or gender dysphoria as such. She claimed that she just felt like she was a guy, and didn't feel comfortable being referred to as a girl. She doesn't 'present' as a boy for the most part, although she never wears clothes that are traditionally exclusively female. And she doesn't struggle with her biological sexual characteristics or want hormone therapy etc. She still uses the ladies' restroom without complaint. I've grappled with how to understand her for a while. It doesn't bother me of course, it's just something I have trouble placing in the proper context. If it's just a matter of rejecting gender norms and being her own person, why not just do that? Androgyny is cool, so why not just be androgynous in style and have whatever tastes/preferences she may have? I get that there is some discomfort around being called by her birth name and female pronouns, but I'm not sure what the source of that discomfort is, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with her body or appearance.

If she's a teenager it's probably a phase. It's the in-thing right now. If you're not a complicated identity acronym, you're a nobody today.

But super important that you respect it. I think this is part of the process of breaking free from you, and being her own person. If you try to prevent her she'll just hold onto this identity super much. If you respect it she'll eventually just laugh about it as a stupid teen thing. She will anyway eventually. If you make an effort to accommodate her silly gender notions you'll score a billion daddy points and she'll love your forever.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think we can undo the cultural demand for gendered stuff.

In these parts the practice is already dying. The only things that still are gendered are hyper feminine stuff. But that's basically gender play, but on the cis side. That will always be a thing.

And there are some things that actually need to be gendered. Male incontinence pads are different than female ones. (Although what actually matters is your anatomy, not your "gender".)

It's not a problem. Just write on the package what it does, and let people sort it out for themselves.

People have genders. Stuff don't.

The Germans would disagree with you on this. :)

Germany is perhaps not a model nation we should uphold as something to emulate. For one thing we'll have a hell of a lot less invasions.
 
Also, I don't think two genders is a good idea. Physically men and women have one set of sexual organs. But what makes us men and women aren't just our sex organs. What makes us men or women is to a much greater extent our behaviour. There's a whole bunch of hormones that regulate this. Instincts.

The fact that some women are more feminine and some men are more masculine, and vice versa, points to it being biological. So we're all a bit of both to varying degrees. Just makes it stupid to try to push all men and women into two neat boxes that virtually nobody fits perfectly. Just makes it stupid to gender anything. Just let people do whatever they want. And there's no need to figure any of this shit out.
 
Also, I don't think two genders is a good idea. Physically men and women have one set of sexual organs. But what makes us men and women aren't just our sex organs. What makes us men or women is to a much greater extent our behaviour. There's a whole bunch of hormones that regulate this. Instincts.

The fact that some women are more feminine and some men are more masculine, and vice versa, points to it being biological. So we're all a bit of both to varying degrees. Just makes it stupid to try to push all men and women into two neat boxes that virtually nobody fits perfectly. Just makes it stupid to gender anything. Just let people do whatever they want. And there's no need to figure any of this shit out.

Zoid this outlook requires nuance. This alone makes it incompatible with most Americans.
 
I have a step-daughter who identifies as a boy but doesn't seem to show any signs of body hatred or gender dysphoria as such. She claimed that she just felt like she was a guy, and didn't feel comfortable being referred to as a girl. She doesn't 'present' as a boy for the most part, although she never wears clothes that are traditionally exclusively female. And she doesn't struggle with her biological sexual characteristics or want hormone therapy etc. She still uses the ladies' restroom without complaint. I've grappled with how to understand her for a while. It doesn't bother me of course, it's just something I have trouble placing in the proper context. If it's just a matter of rejecting gender norms and being her own person, why not just do that? Androgyny is cool, so why not just be androgynous in style and have whatever tastes/preferences she may have? I get that there is some discomfort around being called by her birth name and female pronouns, but I'm not sure what the source of that discomfort is, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with her body or appearance.

If she's a teenager it's probably a phase. It's the in-thing right now. If you're not a complicated identity acronym, you're a nobody today.

But super important that you respect it. I think this is part of the process of breaking free from you, and being her own person. If you try to prevent her she'll just hold onto this identity super much. If you respect it she'll eventually just laugh about it as a stupid teen thing. She will anyway eventually. If you make an effort to accommodate her silly gender notions you'll score a billion daddy points and she'll love your forever.

I'm right there with you. It's pointless to do anything else. And honestly, being able to take charge of one's identity in such a direct way, even if it's a fleeting impulse that may change, isn't such a bad experience for a teen.
 
Also, I don't think two genders is a good idea. Physically men and women have one set of sexual organs. But what makes us men and women aren't just our sex organs. What makes us men or women is to a much greater extent our behaviour. There's a whole bunch of hormones that regulate this. Instincts.

The fact that some women are more feminine and some men are more masculine, and vice versa, points to it being biological. So we're all a bit of both to varying degrees. Just makes it stupid to try to push all men and women into two neat boxes that virtually nobody fits perfectly. Just makes it stupid to gender anything. Just let people do whatever they want. And there's no need to figure any of this shit out.

Zoid this outlook requires nuance. This alone makes it incompatible with most Americans.

No, it doesn't. It requires less thought. A thing you before needed to worry about, you now don't.
 
When I was younger and saw a person of unclear gender I would get a control freak mindset and have to know what sex are you?!? I would not ask the person, but it would be in my mind.

Is this a culture bound thing or a primate thing?
 
And there are some things that actually need to be gendered. Male incontinence pads are different than female ones. (Although what actually matters is your anatomy, not your "gender".)

It's not a problem. Just write on the package what it does, and let people sort it out for themselves.

I think there are a lot of people that would have a problem with them being identified for with penis vs without penis.

People have genders. Stuff don't.

The Germans would disagree with you on this. :)

Germany is perhaps not a model nation we should uphold as something to emulate. For one thing we'll have a hell of a lot less invasions.

Did you not notice the :) ? I was referring to the fact that the German language puts gender on nouns.
 
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