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Is the "rich young man" a special case?

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We are told that when a rich young man asked Jesus how to attain eternal life, Jesus answered that in addition to keeping the commandments, the man must sell all he had giving the proceeds to the poor and then to follow Jesus. I've pointed out to many Christians that they haven't followed these directions, and in particular I've explained to them that they haven't sold all they have giving the money to the poor. The usual response from Christians is that Jesus' directions apply only to the rich young man. Other people, like these lucky Christians, can have eternal life while keeping all their worldly goodies.

So is the rich young man a special case in that he had especially tough requirements to meet to attain eternal life while most other people get by much more easily? Why would Jesus single out this rich young man being so very tough on him while making salvation a breeze for other potential Christians? Could it be that although Christians want to go to heaven they want a piece of the pie here on earth?
 

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Why should it Matter?
You can either look at it as none of these people are getting in to heaven, or god favors the sly and crafty, so heaven will be full of these people.
 

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Or you can see the entire jesus story, complete with his putting on the superman cape, saving us, and then flying away back to krypton as another extended parable, another existential reflection on the human condition. Going into the finery of these stories, deriving lessons, is an exercise in critical analysis which depends entirely on one's starting assumptions, biases and knowledge of history. All the christians I've ever known worship the jesus story but in no way attempt to emulate it in full. That's because subconsciously they realize it is just a story like any other and that they can make changes to the story. That's culture.

Another way to look at it is as a reflection of widespread belief in the paranormal, no different than Ufology or Bigfoot or you name it. But that's another thread.
 

steve_bank

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The modern 'success gospel' preached by some conservative evangelicals , god wants you be rich. It justifies preachers who get rich preaching.
 

Thomas II

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We are told that when a rich young man asked Jesus how to attain eternal life, Jesus answered that in addition to keeping the commandments, the man must sell all he had giving the proceeds to the poor and then to follow Jesus. I've pointed out to many Christians that they haven't followed these directions, and in particular I've explained to them that they haven't sold all they have giving the money to the poor. The usual response from Christians is that Jesus' directions apply only to the rich young man. Other people, like these lucky Christians, can have eternal life while keeping all their worldly goodies.

So is the rich young man a special case in that he had especially tough requirements to meet to attain eternal life while most other people get by much more easily? Why would Jesus single out this rich young man being so very tough on him while making salvation a breeze for other potential Christians? Could it be that although Christians want to go to heaven they want a piece of the pie here on earth?

Maybe the young man was asking how to attain "perfection"...and he seemed too arrogant, narcissistic, full of himself...Jesus told him to get rid of that attitude...
 
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You can either look at it as none of these people are getting in to heaven, or god favors the sly and crafty, so heaven will be full of these people.
If God favors the sly and crafty, then Jesus clearly lied to the rich young man. If such people populate heaven, and we make it to heaven, then we better keep an eye on them!

Seriously, many Christians find they need to need to trade-off Jesus as savior with Jesus as Lord. They want the former, but the latter can be a major pain in the ass with all his difficult commandments. Jesus as Lord is only useful as a means to lay guilt trips on others. "You just don't want to give up your sins!" As if Christians have given up their sins. LOL
 

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We are told that when a rich young man asked Jesus how to attain eternal life, Jesus answered that in addition to keeping the commandments, the man must sell all he had giving the proceeds to the poor and then to follow Jesus. I've pointed out to many Christians that they haven't followed these directions, and in particular I've explained to them that they haven't sold all they have giving the money to the poor. The usual response from Christians is that Jesus' directions apply only to the rich young man. Other people, like these lucky Christians, can have eternal life while keeping all their worldly goodies.

So is the rich young man a special case in that he had especially tough requirements to meet to attain eternal life while most other people get by much more easily? Why would Jesus single out this rich young man being so very tough on him while making salvation a breeze for other potential Christians? Could it be that although Christians want to go to heaven they want a piece of the pie here on earth?
Jesus elsewhere makes it absolutely clear that rich people straight up have no place in the kingdom of heaven, so I'm not seeing the case for interpreting this story any other way. If someone is a nominative Christian, but they also enjoy luxuries while the poor suffer, then from a Christian perspective, "they have received their reward" and should enjoy it while it lasts. Because it won't last for long.
 
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All the christians I've ever known worship the jesus story but in no way attempt to emulate it in full. That's because subconsciously they realize it is just a story like any other and that they can make changes to the story. That's culture.
That's hypocrisy and deception too. Yes, I've seen Christians many times interpret scripture to excuse themselves from some commandment they don't wish to obey. Doing so can be very wise because much of what Jesus commanded his followers to do is foolish if not downright dangerous. The difference between sincere Christians and the hypocrites is a matter of life and limb. So in the final analysis, most Christians end up living like non-Christians, the Gospel's injunctions making little difference for them. You don't see the sincere Christians because few of them survive Jesus.
 
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The modern 'success gospel' preached by some conservative evangelicals , god wants you be rich. It justifies preachers who get rich preaching.
We have a discrepancy in Jesus' theology: We can pray and receive what we ask for, but we must give away all that we have. The two nullify each other. If I need a new car, and God grants my request only to result in my needing to give that car away, then what's the point in asking for it at all?

But keep one very important point in mind: Jesus never told the rich young man when to sell all he had. So maybe those rich preachers have every intention to give away their wealth; they just haven't gotten around to it yet.
 
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Jesus elsewhere makes it absolutely clear that rich people straight up have no place in the kingdom of heaven, so I'm not seeing the case for interpreting this story any other way.
That rules out Donald Trump's salvation along with anybody else who is anything more than dirt poor.
If someone is a nominative Christian, but they also enjoy luxuries while the poor suffer, then from a Christian perspective, "they have received their reward" and should enjoy it while it lasts. Because it won't last for long.
I'm poor, but I do have some luxuries that I enjoy. Am I then doomed or not? Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't specify what "rich" is, so if you're clever you'll define "rich" as having more money than what you have.
 

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The modern 'success gospel' preached by some conservative evangelicals , god wants you be rich. It justifies preachers who get rich preaching.
We have a discrepancy in Jesus' theology: We can pray and receive what we ask for, but we must give away all that we have. The two nullify each other. If I need a new car, and God grants my request only to result in my needing to give that car away, then what's the point in asking for it at all?

But keep one very important point in mind: Jesus never told the rich young man when to sell all he had. So maybe those rich preachers have every intention to give away their wealth; they just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Easy solution: don't pray for a car in the first place.
 

Politesse

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Jesus elsewhere makes it absolutely clear that rich people straight up have no place in the kingdom of heaven, so I'm not seeing the case for interpreting this story any other way.
That rules out Donald Trump's salvation along with anybody else who is anything more than dirt poor.
If someone is a nominative Christian, but they also enjoy luxuries while the poor suffer, then from a Christian perspective, "they have received their reward" and should enjoy it while it lasts. Because it won't last for long.
I'm poor, but I do have some luxuries that I enjoy. Am I then doomed or not? Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't specify what "rich" is, so if you're clever you'll define "rich" as having more money than what you have.
He didn't say you were doomed, just that such pleasures are fleeting, and morally injurious if gotten at another person's expense.

And you shouldn't need Jesus to tell you something as plainly obvious as the fact that if there's a hell, Trump has a reserved seat.
 

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The passage sounds like the Buddhist give all away and take up your begging bowl. Predated Jesus by about 300 years. Jesus was always on the run on the outskirts. He is identified with John The Baptist who was as we say today, living off the land. Scrounging.

There is a gospel reference to secret or esoteric teachings by Jesus.

In the gospels Jesus is preaching to poor Jews at the bottom. The gospel moral is believe in god and Jesus, suffer your troubles, and get an eternal heavenly reward. I believe James wrote the rich shall wither like a flower.

The Jewish power elite who Jesus antagonized were analogous to the wealthy Christian religious elite today. The Billy Grams. The temple in Jerusalem was a profit makings corporation.
 
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The passage sounds like the Buddhist give all away and take up your begging bowl. Predated Jesus by about 300 years. Jesus was always on the run on the outskirts. He is identified with John The Baptist who was as we say today, living off the land. Scrounging.
The similarities between Jesus and Buddha seem to be too numerous to be coincidence. There's not much at all in the Gospel story that's original or unique. You would think that God could come up with his own ideas.
There is a gospel reference to secret or esoteric teachings by Jesus.

In the gospels Jesus is preaching to poor Jews at the bottom. The gospel moral is believe in god and Jesus, suffer your troubles, and get an eternal heavenly reward. I believe James wrote the rich shall wither like a flower.
Jesus never explained why wealth and luxury is so evil now and so great in the future. Maybe he knew he couldn't actually provide heaven so he put it off to the indeterminate future. That way he could always tell people to wait just a bit longer.
The Jewish power elite who Jesus antagonized were analogous to the wealthy Christian religious elite today. The Billy Grams. The temple in Jerusalem was a profit makings corporation.
Whatever the Pharisees may have actually been like, Jesus apparently has done no better. His religious leadership never rid the world of fools and hypocrites, now has it?
 
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If someone is a nominative Christian, but they also enjoy luxuries while the poor suffer, then from a Christian perspective, "they have received their reward" and should enjoy it while it lasts. Because it won't last for long.

Nothing lasts, so the wise thing to do is enjoy life while we can. It's very foolish to defer pleasure to a supposed afterlife that is conjecture at best.

He didn't say you were doomed, just that such pleasures are fleeting, and morally injurious if gotten at another person's expense.

Earthly pleasures might be fleeting, but we know they're real.

Oh, and Jesus pronounced doom on people all the time including the wealthy--especially the wealthy. He really seemed to hate them probably out of jealousy.

And you shouldn't need Jesus to tell you something as plainly obvious as the fact that if there's a hell, Trump has a reserved seat.

Trump isn't that bad, but Jesus would think he's bad because he's rich. That fact doesn't seem to bother Trump as he attends church regularly.
 

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Oh, and Jesus pronounced doom on people all the time including the wealthy--especially the wealthy. He really seemed to hate them probably out of jealousy.
Jealousy? What makes you think that?

Jesus' proclamations of "doom" weren't random -- they were aimed at those who exploit others for their own gain. The wealthy, the powerful, the pious, the hypocritical.

People who abstain from wealth aren't miserable. People who are forced to struggle through poverty not of their own making or volition are miserable.
 

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Maybe the young man was asking how to attain "perfection"...and he seemed too arrogant, narcissistic, full of himself...Jesus told him to get rid of that attitude...
In Matthew 19:
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”​
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”​
“Which ones?” he inquired.​
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​
 

excreationist

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Something interesting in all 3 versions:

Matthew 19:17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

Luke 18:19
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

It seems that, at least at that point in time, Jesus was saying that he wasn't God....
 

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Something interesting in all 3 versions:

Matthew 19:17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

Luke 18:19
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

It seems that, at least at that point in time, Jesus was saying that he wasn't God....
Jesus never claimed to be a God, that was his followers after the fact.
 

excreationist

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Jesus never claimed to be a God, that was his followers after the fact.
That's interesting but I have a feeling many Christians would say that you can't be saved if you believe that Jesus was a mere man....
 

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Was it not the claim of Jesus's followers that he was the messiah which got him into trouble with the Pharisees?
As far as I've been able to find out, the anticipated Jewish messiah is not supposed to be the son of god.

Two things seem to be going on here:
his followers who promoted Jesus as the messiah had their work cut out, and when it came to the gospel writers, they did their best to sell the idea by inventing details which accorded with Old Testament prophesies. "Look, this is what was prophesised and this is what happened - Jesus must be the Messiah!";
Paul promulgated the idea that Jesus was the son of god, and I think that among the gospel writers, only "John" adopts the doctrine.

In terms of the OP, from the word go, I expect, "Christians " have adopted the bits of Christ's teachings (along with the bits of the OT) which suit them. and ever since Rome made Christianity a tool of government, it's been commandeered by elites (and others) for whom the Sermon on the Mount and much else of Christ's teachings are the ravings of a dangerous radical.
 

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Maybe the young man was asking how to attain "perfection"...and he seemed too arrogant, narcissistic, full of himself...Jesus told him to get rid of that attitude...
In Matthew 19:
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”​
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”​
“Which ones?” he inquired.​
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

Using Mark 10:17-31as a point of reference...

"17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth."

First there seems to be some "overacting" (dramatism) by this rich young man, with the "falling on his knees and calling Jesus "Good Teacher"...
He's buttering up Jesus...

Jesus basically returns it with a "cut the crap", "No one is good except God alone..."

Jesus is teaching him a lesson in humility..."one thing you lack (is humility) Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

And the guy walks away because he can't do that...
 

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Was it not the claim of Jesus's followers that he was the messiah which got him into trouble with the Pharisees?
As far as I've been able to find out, the anticipated Jewish messiah is not supposed to be the son of god.

Two things seem to be going on here:
his followers who promoted Jesus as the messiah had their work cut out, and when it came to the gospel writers, they did their best to sell the idea by inventing details which accorded with Old Testament prophesies. "Look, this is what was prophesised and this is what happened - Jesus must be the Messiah!";
Paul promulgated the idea that Jesus was the son of god, and I think that among the gospel writers, only "John" adopts the doctrine.

In terms of the OP, from the word go, I expect, "Christians " have adopted the bits of Christ's teachings (along with the bits of the OT) which suit them. and ever since Rome made Christianity a tool of government, it's been commandeered by elites (and others) for whom the Sermon on the Mount and much else of Christ's teachings are the ravings of a dangerous radical.
Even "son of God" does not mean "the same as God" in the sense that Trinitarian Christians mean it, at least not to a person of the 1st century. In Hebrew tradition, angels and kings bear that title occasionally, and of course the Hellenistic world was full of stories of demigods. If John believed that "Son of God" meant "a co-equal person with God", that makes John 1:12-13 a very interesting verse: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God..." Perhaps we're all aiming too low just trying to get in to Heaven.
 
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Oh, and Jesus pronounced doom on people all the time including the wealthy--especially the wealthy. He really seemed to hate them probably out of jealousy.
Jealousy? What makes you think that?

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.

Jesus' proclamations of "doom" weren't random -- they were aimed at those who exploit others for their own gain. The wealthy, the powerful, the pious, the hypocritical.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.

People who abstain from wealth aren't miserable. People who are forced to struggle through poverty not of their own making or volition are miserable.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?
 

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Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.
You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice. Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.
Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament, but he does often lament the fate of those who engage in folly, using the formula "Woe to you ____, who...", and it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?
I'm not Jesus, but I've studied his teachings for some time, and those are my conclusions. What more of a point does there need to be?
 

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Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.
You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice. Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.
Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament, but he does often lament the fate of those who engage in folly, using the formula "Woe to you ____, who...", and it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?
I'm not Jesus, but I've studied his teachings for some time, and those are my conclusions. What more of a point does there need to be?

Nobody is hating here!

Jesus had rich friends! (Among them Martha, Mary, Lazarus , Joseph of Arimathea)

It's not about what you have, its how it has you!
 
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The passage sounds like the Buddhist give all away and take up your begging bowl. Predated Jesus by about 300 years. Jesus was always on the run on the outskirts. He is identified with John The Baptist who was as we say today, living off the land. Scrounging.
The similarities between Jesus and Buddha seem to be too numerous to be coincidence. There's not much at all in the Gospel story that's original or unique. You would think that God could come up with his own ideas.
There is a gospel reference to secret or esoteric teachings by Jesus.

In the gospels Jesus is preaching to poor Jews at the bottom. The gospel moral is believe in god and Jesus, suffer your troubles, and get an eternal heavenly reward. I believe James wrote the rich shall wither like a flower.
Jesus never explained why wealth and luxury is so evil now and so great in the future. Maybe he knew he couldn't actually provide heaven so he put it off to the indeterminate future. That way he could always tell people to wait just a bit longer.
The Jewish power elite who Jesus antagonized were analogous to the wealthy Christian religious elite today. The Billy Grams. The temple in Jerusalem was a profit makings corporation.
Whatever the Pharisees may have actually been like, Jesus apparently has done no better. His religious leadership never rid the world of fools and hypocrites, now has it?
Back in the 60s 70ssome in the the New Age crowd once clamed Jesus was in India for the missing years.

There is little if any attributed to Jesus that was new in Jewish traditions. Jesus as the sacrificial lamb. All major traditions have the dame foundations, like the Golden Rule in various forms.

The obvious problem is there are only a few words directly attributed to Jesus. The only coherent message is the Sermon On The Mount. That leaves an opening for Christians to invent and interpret theology, and us non believers to speculate on who he might have been. Contrasted to Buddha or Plato or Mohammed for which there are detailed writings.

We know there were multiple people claiming to be the messiah. Jews were nationalistic and looking for a leader to return them to power. The revolt in part led to the mass suicide at the Roman siege of Masada. Jewish zealots, analogous to religious zealots of today.

Jews considered any physical presentation of god serious blasphemy. Worse anyone who linked himself to god.

The Christian images of Jesus would be considered idolatry.

What exists in the NT points to a group of Jewish heteics following a relgious leader. They shared food. Met and read scripture and sang. A support group.

In the Lord's Prayer give us thsi dat our daily bread would not be said over a good Sunday dinner dinner spread, it was giving hanks for enough food for one more day.

I watched an archeology show that reconstructed Herod's dwellings. The difference between that and regular Jews in Palestine wolud have been stark. That there would be a wandering rabbi calling it out and others like him is to be expected.

Take away the supernatural the gopel writers aded and you ave one of many calling out the Jewish system.
 
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Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group.
Well, there was that one day they were handing out thirty pieces of silver…
That was just one group of Jewish priests and not all the wealthy, we don't know how wealthy those priests were, and Jesus hated the wealthy long before his reputed crucifixion allegedly instigated by the priests...

...but aside from such minor facts, you could be right!
 

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Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.
I agree. Sounds like Jesus harbored more anger than hate. Thing is, you can only love wealth while alive on earth. You can love god for eternity after that, as you’re being tortured in hell.
🤡
 
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Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.
Like most Christians, I'll take the earthly wealth. And like Christians, I know that the earthly wealth is real. The pie in the sky Jesus preached is not so certain.
 

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Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.
I agree. Sounds like Jesus harbored more anger than hate. Thing is, you can only love wealth while alive on earth. You can love god for eternity after that, as you’re being tortured in hell.
🤡
He certainly did take it out on that little fig tree...

jesus-and-the-fig-tree-GoodSalt-epcas0342.jpg
 

1Heidegger1!

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For all the talk of being the suffering servant, meek and humble, what I see with many Christians is self righteousness and aggrandizement. I think Paul says it clearly:

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? (1 Cor 6:2-4)
 

Bronzeage

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There is a cynical witticism used to divide the rich from the rest of us, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

In the story of the rich young ruler(PYL), a man who has never had to ask the cost of anything he wanted, asks what eternal life will cost him.

Jesus replies, "How much have you got?"
 

steve_bank

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My read of what is attributed to Jesus is pacifism and rejection of material things.

Trump is a number one example of what moral philosophies are about religious and secular. Citizen Kane.

Pursuit of greed, accumulation of things, and a fundamentally unhappy bitter man with no joy who takes his unhappiness out on others.

In today's speech it is not about being anti capitalism, it is about avoiding destructive behavior. God and Jesus is that thing on your shoulder whispering in your ear when you stray.

Buddhism's Middle Way. No need for ascetic self deprivation but avoid being attached to excesses.


Jesus of the gospels and the apostles were doom and gloomers end of the world believers. To them material things would have no meaning.
 

Thomas II

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My read of what is attributed to Jesus is pacifism and rejection of material things.

Trump is a number one example of what moral philosophies are about religious and secular. Citizen Kane.

Pursuit of greed, accumulation of things, and a fundamentally unhappy bitter man with no joy who takes his unhappiness out on others.

In today's speech it is not about being anti capitalism, it is about avoiding destructive behavior. God and Jesus is that thing on your shoulder whispering in your ear when you stray.

Buddhism's Middle Way. No need for ascetic self deprivation but avoid being attached to excesses.


Jesus of the gospels and the apostles were doom and gloomers end of the world believers. To them material things would have no meaning.
Neti, neti...नेति नेति
 
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You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice.

That's a very astute observation. People have been known to give advice to other people they do not hate.

Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

I'm not sure who Jesus hated, but he followed up his encounter with the rich young man by telling his apostles that the rich young man would probably end up in hell. I'm sure that rich young man didn't feel loved by Jesus.

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

Since the evidence for the Gospel story is so weak and ambiguous we are all forced to speculate about its historicity.

Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament...

1 Corinthians 2:6:

Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish.

That looks like doom in the New Testament to me.

...it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

I don't recall reading that in the New Testament.
 

steve_bank

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Jesus the prototypical evangelical Christian ranter. Believe or go to Hell.

Sounds odd, I did not think ancient Jews had as highly developed images of hell as Christians do. I thought Dante influenced the Christian images of hell.
 

Politesse

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Sounds odd, I did not think ancient Jews had as highly developed images of hell as Christians do. I thought Dante influenced the Christian images of hell.
They did not. Ancient Jews believed in a singular realm of the dead, to which everyone was ultimately fated to go, just as did all the other cultures of the ancient near east. Some believed that the dead would be resurrected on the Day of the Lord, but in the pre-Hellenistic era at least, the idea of there being multiple realms within the afterlife based on conduct was a foreign one to the Hebrews. By Jesus' time, there's some indirect evidence of complications. Greco-Egyptian ideas about Elysium and Hadys were creeping into public discourse in from the West and South, and Persian notions of divine purification in the afterlife were creeping in from the East. It's very difficult to say what Jesus himself might have believed, though it certainly wasn't the modern Christian perception of Hell, which would have been very anachronistic, and would have inspired more comment from other parties than we see in the Gospels and other early texts.
 

steve_bank

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