Is there a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?

[Speakpigeon]

Do you think there is a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?
EB

 

[AirPoh]

Do you think there is a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?
EB

"Quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?" What does that mean?

 

[untermensche]

Pain is a subjective experience.

Science understands what kinds of things can cause a brain to create the experience of pain. It understands how the creation of the experience of pain can be attenuated with drugs and naturally occurring molecules.

But how any experience is created is unknown.

And how the thing that experiences pain is created is unknown too.

The brain creates the experience.

The mind experiences.

How an experience in a mind exists is totally unknown.

Saying a brain does it is as helpful and saying a small intestine digests and wanting to understand digestion.

 

[Politesse]

Do you think there is a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?
EB

Well, you can certainly watch it happening, little theory needed; the subjective experience of pain is very individual, but the body's pain response is quite well documented. You can find a fairly nice review on the subject here. The process is certainly complicated, but not beyond scientific review.

 

[Bronzeage]

The quality of mercy is not strained. I'm not sure about the quality of pain, but the mercy model suggest that mercy is not weakened when applied more broadly.

This is certainly not applicable to pain. Anyone who has stepped on an upturned nail and felt it penetrate the skin, understands it to be a painful experience. However, we should all be familiar with the image of a "bed of nails." Instead of one nail, there are hundreds. While it may not be the most comfortable place to take a nap, it's not likely to require a trip to the emergency room and a tetanus shot.

 

[DBT]

Pain as a warning signal generated by a brain conveying the message that something is wrong, damage being done to the hand when touching a hot surface, for example. First the signal of damage, then the reaction, intense sensation of pain, perhaps a reflex withdrawal of the damaged hand, the realization of the cause of distress, the stove was hot, tissue/nerve damage caused by excessive heat.

 

[steve_bank]

I suppose if you are into pain you will want the highest quality of pain.

 

[no-one-particular]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

 

[steve_bank]

When you go into the hospital with pain you are asked to rate it on a scle of 1 to 10. Doasfe is increased until you say it is on the lower scale, assuming you are being honest. It is entirely subjective.

Nagging pain
shooting pain
throbbing pain
pain in the ass
pain in the neck
aching pain

There are no objective defintions, but we all come to know what they ,ean.

Scientifically it is all chemistry in the brain.

How emotions and feelings work at the neural net level is TBD.

 

[fromderinside]

Animals have evolved systems for sensing and experiencing pain, noxious/harmful stimuli, impinging on the individual. There is a physical basis for pain. Form many organisms this system includes neural tissues processing up to and down from the central nervous centers. Humans, for instance, are known to subjectively experience pain as well as demonstrate signs they are sensing and experiencing physical pain given the activities carried out by other systems in concert with sensory and other neural processing of pain.

One of my Dissertation committee members back at FSU was Dr. Dan Kenshalo who specialized in tactile sense theory including pain. A student and associate there, Alan Chatt, isolated EEG evidence of pain response at the sensory cortex in Macquacs in about 1975. Also Dr. Kenshalo was editor of a publication in which the following article by Dr. Melzack, co author of Pain Gate theory with Dr. Wall. https://www.researchgate.net/public...es_proceedings_Springfield_Illinois_Charles_C

Later I got into pilot and operator workload work where a scale Cooper - Harper Scale was developed to recruit estimates of subjective workload from trained individuals. this scale has now been adapted for Pain at many institutions across the world for gathering information on subjective pain experience.



So, yes there is both theory and method for physical basis and subjective basis for pain experience in humans and some other animals. Pain stimuli can both be noxious/tissue damaging and mechanical physical energy applied to tissue which have been measured by some (not included). My favorite test as a student was to apply a hot soldering iron to the back of a Limulus Crab and witness it's pain response in the form of driving it's tail down lifting its body up from a surface.

Pain works, in many ways, similarly to sensation of hot and cold which are known to lead to physical reactions, sweating and shivering, in proportion to the difference is surface temperature from core temperature.

Since there are many things referred to as painful I limit my assertions to only those forms of pain induced by thermal or pressure to the skin by direct stimulation. So radiation, joint, temperature induced, and other indirect or radiated forms of stimuli are not as yet fully understood with respect to changes in subjected tissue from whence pain signals arise as chemical effects.

 

[untermensche]

Pain is only an experience.

The patient with diabetic neuropathy and a huge wound has no pain.

There is no pain therefore.

No matter what activity is found.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Animals have evolved systems for sensing and experiencing pain, noxious/harmful stimuli, impinging on the individual. There is a physical basis for pain. Form many organisms this system includes neural tissues processing up to and down from the central nervous centers. Humans, for instance, are known to subjectively experience pain as well as demonstrate signs they are sensing and experiencing physical pain given the activities carried out by other systems in concert with sensory and other neural processing of pain.

One of my Dissertation committee members back at FSU was Dr. Dan Kenshalo who specialized in tactile sense theory including pain. A student and associate there, Alan Chatt, isolated EEG evidence of pain response at the sensory cortex in Macquacs in about 1975. Also Dr. Kenshalo was editor of a publication in which the following article by Dr. Melzack, co author of Pain Gate theory with Dr. Wall. https://www.researchgate.net/public...es_proceedings_Springfield_Illinois_Charles_C

Later I got into pilot and operator workload work where a scale Cooper - Harper Scale was developed to recruit estimates of subjective workload from trained individuals. this scale has now been adapted for Pain at many institutions across the world for gathering information on subjective pain experience.

View attachment 19408 View attachment 19409

So, yes there is both theory and method for physical basis and subjective basis for pain experience in humans and some other animals. Pain stimuli can both be noxious/tissue damaging and mechanical physical energy applied to tissue which have been measured by some (not included). My favorite test as a student was to apply a hot soldering iron to the back of a Limulus Crab and witness it's pain response in the form of driving it's tail down lifting its body up from a surface.

Pain works, in many ways, similarly to sensation of hot and cold which are known to lead to physical reactions, sweating and shivering, in proportion to the difference is surface temperature from core temperature.

Since there are many things referred to as painful I limit my assertions to only those forms of pain induced by thermal or pressure to the skin by direct stimulation. So radiation, joint, temperature induced, and other indirect or radiated forms of stimuli are not as yet fully understood with respect to changes in subjected tissue from whence pain signals arise as chemical effects.

That's not any valid scientific explanation of the quality of pain.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

It's rather funny to see so few people voted.

Don't you all know the answer to this simple question?

Go on, try it. I'm sure you can make up your mind and thereby know what you want to vote.

Or maybe not.
EB

 

[steve_bank]

It's rather funny to see so few people voted.

Don't you all know the answer to this simple question?

Go on, try it. I'm sure you can make up your mind and thereby know what you want to vote.

Or maybe not.
EB

Reading your OPs like this one is both funny and entertaining as you ask the same fundamental question about mind and perception, getting the same answers.

 

[fromderinside]

That's not any valid scientific explanation of the quality of pain.
EB

First I don't subscribe to dualistic notions such as qualia. So when I read what is the quality of pain I first find physical measures which to relate existing systems linking to articulated response, subjective reports. Its what we do in psychophysics. Works pretty well too.

So any philosopher who tries to pull a fast one is faced with either understanding how we have learned to measure feeling and sense or blathering something like there is no explanation for qualia which is true since qualia don't actually exist. Instead one needs to get in to motivation and emotion, two very slippery areas where constant sidetracking is ongoing, since those who think of subjective as a state rather than from the observer are always trying to interject their 'thing' from which a state can exist.

Enjoy.

 

[Speakpigeon]

FDI is on my "ignore" list, can anyone tell me if he says anything interesting?
EB

 

[untermensche]

The idea of "qualia" is a redundant useless idea.

The idea of experience already fully contains the notion that all experience is different and every experiencer is different and an experience has qualities.

What needs to be explained is the phenomena of experience.

What needs to be explained is how something that can experience a thought is created and how a thought is created.

Within that you will find all the knowledge of "qualities" as well.

 

[Speakpigeon]

For the few people who maybe don't understand English too well, I may specify that the quality of pain that I'm asking whether there is a scientific explanation for is that pain is painful. I would have thought saying this should be unnecessary but apparently I was wrong. I think most people are very familiar with the fact that pain is painful and I think that's the quality they think of as the main quality of pain. You really have to be a hardcore materialist to misinterpret what I meant by "quality of pain".

So, do you think there is any scientific theory that explains the painfulness of pain in terms of the physical universe?
EB

 

[untermensche]

Pain is an experience.

All experiences have qualities. It is inherent to them.

The quality is not something separate from the experience.

We will never know anything about qualities until we know how something that experiences is created and how the things it can experience are created.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Do you think there is a scientific theory that explains the quality of pain in terms of the physical universe?
EB

Well, you can certainly watch it happening, little theory needed; the subjective experience of pain is very individual, but the body's pain response is quite well documented. You can find a fairly nice review on the subject here. The process is certainly complicated, but not beyond scientific review.

Thanks, that's a good summary of what scientists talk about when they talk about pain: "Pain is fundamentally and quintessentially a psychophysiological phenomenon."

I would have thought pain is fundamentally and quintessentially a painful experience. Tell me if you disagree.

"Perception of pain occurs when stimulation of nociceptors is intense enough to activate Aδ fibers, resulting in a subjective experience of a sharp, prickling pain. As stimulus strength increases, C fibers are recruited, and the individual experiences an intense, burning pain that continues after the cessation of the stimulus."

No doubt these people know their stuff. I didn't find any explanation of the painful quality of pain, though. Why is it pain is experienced as painful rather than as sugary or blue. Or not at all. Why do we need to have this painful experience at all. And, crucially, how do you end up with this painful experience if you start with electrons and protons?

Your paper comes out with a blank on all these questions. Nobody will be surprised except fromderinside.
EB