Is there an afterlife?

[Lion IRC]

[moderator’s note: This thread is a derail split from the WSJ lying thread in Secular Lifestyles since this part of the discussion is not about the merits of telling lies to kids but is about whether or not an afterlife exists. The thread in Secular lifestyles assumes it does not because it is... Secular Lifestyles]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

One thing that IS a fact is the actual historical existence of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

Informed, evidenced judgments are not lies.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

One thing that IS a fact is the actual historical existence of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

No, because:

1. Some of us do know that.
2. If we were mistaken, that would not be a lie, since a lie requires intent. For example, if I tell someone that Santa does not exist, it is not a lie even if he happened to exist, because I'm sure that he does not (if Santa existed, it would be an error, not a lie).

 

[Lion IRC]

Some of 'us' atheist parents know for a fact that there is no afterlife???
WOW!
That's going in the quote-mine vault.
Thanks.

 

[Treedbear]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

The atheist parent doesn't know that Krampus doesn't exist for a fact either. What should he tell his kids when they ask?

In Central European folklore, Krampus is a horned, anthropomorphic figure described as "half-goat, half-demon", who, during the Christmas season, punishes children who have misbehaved.

One thing that IS a fact is the actual historical existence of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Therefore the jolly old elf who knows their inner thoughts and can be everywhere at once is a lie.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The atheist parent doesn't know that Krampus doesn't exist for a fact either. What should he tell his kids when they ask?

One thing that IS a fact is the actual historical existence of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Therefore the jolly old elf who knows their inner thoughts and can be everywhere at once is a lie.

This Saint Nicholas guy is as mythical as Jesus if you read his bio. He performed all kinds of miracles, raising kids from the dead and all manner of things. Nothing was ever written of him or by him and the first accounts of his alleged life are centuries old. His alleged bones have mystical powers, lots of good woo associated with the legend of Saint Nick.

That he is the inspiration for Santa is simply accepted cultural legend, not historical fact.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Some of 'us' atheist parents know for a fact that there is no afterlife???
WOW!
That's going in the quote-mine vault.
Thanks.

No, I did not mean to imply that I was a parent. I know there is no afterlife, and if I became a parent, I would still know it (it's pretty obvious to me). And some atheist parents know it, but I'm not one of them.

 

[Lion IRC]

...I know there is no afterlife

...and if I became a parent, I would still know it (it's pretty obvious to me).

...And some atheist parents know it,...

I take it that when you use the word "know" you're using it in the same sense that you think a fundy claims to know that there IS an afterlife.

Reminds me of a former media magnate and atheist Kerry Packer, who had a near death experience. He emphatically "reported" (like a good journalist,)..."There's nothing."
There IS nothing. He experienced what NOTHING feels like.

Sadly Mr Packer finally became a former media magnate (and former atheist) during his second NDE, when he got a little bit too close to that event horizon he called the "nothingness".

In the totally non-preachy, non-proselytising bible, Jesus says anyone who believes can have eternal life. The bible informs us alleges that apparently we have something called a soul.

So, what if belief in the afterlife is like some sort of placebo effect which boosts your soul's 'immune system' strengthening it sufficiently to survive that 'singularity' called death.

In this age of quantum spookiness and wormholes and multiverse theories, (and people claiming that they were born with the wrong physical body,) I'm amazed to hear atheists emphatically declaring that they know with certainty that after death, comes nothing.

 

[Lion IRC]

Technically, the bible doesn't say we have souls.
What we have is a body.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I take it that when you use the word "know" you're using it in the same sense that you think a fundy claims to know that there IS an afterlife.

I use it in the usual sense in English, so I guess, unless they mean something else. But to make it clear with examples, I use it in the sense I say I know 3+5=8, I know my bicycle is in the garage, I know the Earth isn't flat, I know it is not the case that Jesus resurrected or walked on water, I know Boris Johnson is the UK Prime Minister, etc.

It is pretty obvious. But a debate on the matter would take longer than I'm willing to dedicate these days. In any case, even if I were mistaken, it would not be a lie on my part to say that there is no afterlife, because lying requires insincerity.

 

[bilby]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

They do if they understand fundamental physics. Of course, most parents do not understand fundamental physics.

One thing that IS a fact is the actual historical existence of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Perhaps. But he's dead now.

 

[bilby]

Some of 'us' atheist parents know for a fact that there is no afterlife???
WOW!
That's going in the quote-mine vault.
Thanks.

The possibility is ruled out by the Standard Model of particle physics.

This remains true regardless of your failure to understand it.

And has been discussed on these boards several times.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I take it that when you use the word "know" you're using it in the same sense that you think a fundy claims to know that there IS an afterlife.

I use it in the usual sense in English, so I guess, unless they mean something else. But to make it clear with examples, I use it in the sense I say I know 3+5=8, I know my bicycle is in the garage, I know the Earth isn't flat, I know it is not the case that Jesus resurrected or walked on water, I know Boris Johnson is the UK Prime Minister, etc.

It is pretty obvious. But a debate on the matter would take longer than I'm willing to dedicate these days. In any case, even if I were mistaken, it would not be a lie on my part to say that there is no afterlife, because lying requires insincerity.

Saying that our brains will remain conscious forever, and further that that awareness will be transported automatically to some magical realm of agonizing pain or surreal happiness is a classic example of an extraordinary claim. It fails because there is no evidence for same, let alone extraordinary evidence. All we have is personal anecdote. So it's easy to know something like that, as easy as it is to know your height and weight.

Of course I could say I'm eleven feet tall with several invisible heads and that my appearance is just an illusion because I'm an alien from the Orion Constellation. Not too compelling, but still more compelling than tales of aftelives with magical beings.

 

[Treedbear]

Technically, the bible doesn't say we have souls.
What we have is a body.

Depends on which version of the Bible you mean:

Genesis 2:7, NIV: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Genesis 2:7, ESV: "then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

It's a very ambiguous term. But we don't need a Bible to know we have a body. It would seem that you need a soul to acquire immortality, though. But even a person's immortality is controvertial. The early Hebrews taught that mankind was banned from eating from the Tree of Immortality. It was blasphemy to talk of a human soul.

 

[Lion IRC]

Whether or not we are immortal is God's preferential option.

 

[ronburgundy]

Wouldn't it be a lie for an atheist parent to assert that there is no God/afterlife?
The atheist parent doesn't know this for a fact.

Is it a lie to say to your kid "Eat your broccoli, it won't kill you"? Or, "Exercise is good for you." These facts are no more certain that that there is no God or afterlife. Logic states that the a priori probability of God or and afterlife is 1/infinity, or near zero, as it is with any claim prior to supporting evidence. The relevant evidence that exists strongly goes against both claims, so "There is no God" is a likely to be true as any claim that can be made. While the probability of God cannot be said to be zero, it's also not zero for dying from eating broccoli or exercise.

Lying is saying something you know if false. Atheists know with as much rational certainty as anything can be known that God and an afterlife do not exist. So, if them saying so is a "lie" then everything anyone says is a lie.

 

[Lion IRC]

Logic states that the a priori probability of God or and afterlife is 1/infinity, or near zero...

Atheists know with as much rational certainty as anything can be known that God and an afterlife do not exist.

Thanks ronburgundy.
These are keepers. Going straight into my quotemine vault.
#nonstampcollectors #burdenofproof

 

[Rhea]

That’s an interesting reaction. You are pouncing on something that you think is a “gotcha” quote that you state you will use in burden of proof discussions.

But I think you lack understanding of what ron is saying. Maybe I can help you, so that you don’t make a fool of yourself later.


Here’s the thing. There is NO proof of a god. There is abundant proof that all the claims about god by other humans can indeed be disproven. The only thing about a god that cannot be definitively disproven is that one exists who has no interaction with life on earth whatsoever, leaving it functionally non-existant as far as life and life’s decisions go.

So you have pounced on what you think is an atheist claim that definitely no god exists, and you think that violates our known adherence to scientific inquiry. But you completely miss the point that we do not have to make room for things that do not interact at all with us, when we are giving instructions in life to our children.

Therefore, I caution you, don’t file this away under non-stamp collectors or plan to pull it out to show we don’t really care about the burden of proof. Because you’ll just be shown again that all CLAIMS about your god are easy to disprove, and we don’t need to spend any time disproving things that do not interact with us.

There is zero evidence for afterlifes, and much evidence against. Telling our children that there is no afterlife is a strongly reasonable statement, even if it is not absolute certainty. We don’t need absolute certainty when it is known with as much certainty as anything else we can see. It’s enough when talking to other humans or deciding on how to address our lives.

But if you want to enjoy your fantasy that you caught an atheist being inconsistent (even if it is only 1/1,000,000,000 as inconsistent as the folks who brought you the bible, and that numerical comparison doesn’t bother you), then enjoy your fiction.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There is zero evidence for afterlifes, and much evidence against. Telling our children that there is no afterlife is a strongly reasonable statement, even if it is not absolute certainty. We don’t need absolute certainty when it is known with as much certainty as anything else we can see. It’s enough when talking to other humans or deciding on how to address our lives.

There's a difference between an afterlife and pretending/believing in an afterlife. At it's simplest it's a harmless belief with zero risk. As such, such beliefs have been selected for because of a placebo effect. Beliefs in gods/fantasy are more good examples. Human history has countless examples of such behaviors.

These behaviors should not be confused with those things that are real and have consequences, and this is the lesson when it comes to teaching children. If a child says she wants to be with the angels and so kills herself - which has happened - it's not the same thing. Praying to make disease and hurricanes go away is harmless, perhaps even restorative, so long as it is accompanied by rational behavior.

Many of us can remember Walter Cronkite asking the nation to "pray" for the return of the Apollo 13 astronauts. This amounted to a group hug. If the myriad other activities had not been undertaken which resulted in their safe return they would have perished. This is what to teach our kids.

 

[Lion IRC]

Logic states that the a priori probability of God or and afterlife is 1/infinity, or near zero...

Atheists know with as much rational certainty as anything can be known that God and an afterlife do not exist.

ronburgundy is just being helpful and this forum is a good resource for people who want to learn about the things which atheists believe ...claim to know with dogmatic certainty.

perhaps some lurker is interested in learning more about atheism and might enjoy an easy read...

Exactly!