Jordan Petersen vs Camille Paglia

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a great discussion between two of the most influential thinkers of today.

Yes, I'm aware Jordan Petersen can be dishonest in his methods of argument. I still think he's interesting. Camille Paglia I just have a raging nerd boner. I love her brain. She's the best kind of a feminist IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

 

[untermensche]

He wants to understand the underlying psychology of post-modernism and it's relationship with neo-Marxism and the spread of that into the Universities and the culture.

He wants an interesting bedtime story in other words.

These so-called psychologists that don't understand one thing about human psychology.

They are con men.

 

[J842P]

Here's a great discussion between two of the most influential thinkers of today.

Yes, I'm aware Jordan Petersen can be dishonest in his methods of argument. I still think he's interesting. Camille Paglia I just have a raging nerd boner. I love her brain. She's the best kind of a feminist IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

Where has he been dishonest?

I think he can be a bit myopic with regards to many of his pronouncements, but dishonest hasn't been my impression of him.

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He wants to understand the underlying psychology of post-modernism and it's relationship with neo-Marxism and the spread of that into the Universities and the culture.

He wants an interesting bedtime story in other words.

Huh? Elaborate.

 

[J842P]

But yeah, Paglia is great. I think her criticism of contemporary feminism is spot on - it is essentially a bunch of upper-middle-class white women who want to make the world look like their parent's living room. I think her brand of "Amazonian feminism" is where things should go. Also, her critique of the academy is spot on - the most liberated minds of the 1960's did not go on to graduate school, and the humanities has become a cesspool careerist followers ever since then.

 

[thebeave]

I like both Jordan and Camille. Look forward to watching the video, when I have time. For those who are new to Camille's speaking style, might I recommend you play her speech at 1/3 speed.

 

[untermensche]

He wants to understand the underlying psychology of post-modernism and it's relationship with neo-Marxism and the spread of that into the Universities and the culture.

He wants an interesting bedtime story in other words.

Huh? Elaborate.

It's called extreme skepticism of the claims of psychologists.

They have stories.

Not explanations that can lead to predictions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Where has he been dishonest?

I think he can be a bit myopic with regards to many of his pronouncements, but dishonest hasn't been my impression of him.

He's said the Canadian bill of human rights, C16 was a bill that allowed prosecution for somebody to criticise a persons choice of fashion as hate crime. It's not. The C16 bill just adds gender to the list of things that are admissible to prosecute for when it comes to hate crime. So if you murder a transvestite holding a Nazi flag you will be convicted for murder, as we as a hate crime. Or if you you say "death to all transvestites, lets go a murder them". That can also be construed as a hate crime. Saying that you think that gays and trannies are bad people and wrong is not a hate crime under C16. Jordan Peterson just lied. Also, it's already been added to the territories specific hate crimes list. So all they did was to clean up the law code and make a popular law around the country as a federal law. So it won't even change anything.


He also claims that now he's forced to use the pronoun that somebody wants to have, otherwise he can be charged with a hate crime. Not true. There's no sanction. He's also said that he thinks that these new pronouns is a conspiracy by the marxist left to... do something? He's a bit hazy on what. I think that teenagers wanting to be called this, that and the other is perfectly fine. Teenagers struggle with identity. It's what being a teenager is about. Calling that a marxist conspiracy is absurd.

He's also said that he's been threatened by his university by being fired if he didn't obliged. Not true. They asked him nicely. And just to make it super clear, they wrote three whole paragraphs about they being committed to freedom of speech and academic freedom. Just so there shouldn't be any confusion.

His talk about social justice tribunals is ludicrous.

That said, I think he's just an enthusiastic intellectual, who makes a wee bit too much of an effort to make an impact. He would do good to reign himself in a bit and stick to things that are actually true. He conflates what he worries might happen in the future, with what has already happened.

That said I think he's said loads of clever stuff. I agree with him to a large extent.

 

[barbos]

They seem to agree on everything, at least for the first 26 minutes I've watched so far.
She genuinely despise academia and talks funny.

 

[DrZoidberg]

They seem to agree on everything, at least for the first 26 minutes I've watched so far.
She genuinely despise academia and talks funny.

They agree on everything all the way through. Of course she doesn't despise academia. She's an academic. She despises lazy or stupid academics. That's a big difference. Camille Paglia has been one of my favourite philosophers since the 90'ies. she's awesome. She's an intellectual giant. Jordan Peterson isn't even close to her level. It's still an interesting discussion.

 

[untermensche]

She says people's minds were destroyed by LSD.

I doubt it.

A certain percentage of people will develop schizophrenia.

But LSD is not linked to it.

What is she an expert in?

 

[J842P]

She says people's minds were destroyed by LSD.

I doubt it.

A certain percentage of people will develop schizophrenia.

But LSD is not linked to it.

What is she an expert in?

She is talking about people she knew. She's a cultural, literary, and art critic.

I don't think she means that they all literally all went schizophrenic. Her point was the most interesting minds of that generation did not go to grad school, because most ended up doing a lot of drugs and eschewing traditional academic roles.

 

[untermensche]

She says people's minds were destroyed by LSD.

I doubt it.

A certain percentage of people will develop schizophrenia.

But LSD is not linked to it.

What is she an expert in?

She is talking about people she knew. She's a cultural, literary, and art critic.

I don't think she means that they all literally all went schizophrenic. Her point was the most interesting minds of that generation did not go to grad school, because most ended up doing a lot of drugs and eschewing traditional academic roles.

I think she is merely talking about the difference between the sixties and the seventies, generally speaking.

The sixties was a time of destruction and a lot of the old order was torn down. A lot of old thinking was thrown out.

The seventies was a time of regrowth with things like the woman's movement and concern for the environment beginning.

And she is right.

The kinds of people that tear down the old are not the same kinds of people that build the new.

But they are not lost drug addicts.

The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

 

[sharon45]

She's a cultural, literary, and art critic.

Great, all three are extremely subjective.

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The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

Agreed.

 

[WAB]

She says people's minds were destroyed by LSD.

I doubt it.

A certain percentage of people will develop schizophrenia.

But LSD is not linked to it.

What is she an expert in?

She is talking about people she knew. She's a cultural, literary, and art critic.

I don't think she means that they all literally all went schizophrenic. Her point was the most interesting minds of that generation did not go to grad school, because most ended up doing a lot of drugs and eschewing traditional academic roles.

This is going to be a great thread.

I have to insert something first, because J842P's phrasing is just too hauntingly reminiscent of:

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness,
starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking
for an angry fix,

— Allen Ginsberg, opening lines from "Howl", 1955

 

[WAB]

Great, all three are extremely subjective.

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The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

Agreed.

Seconded, or, um... thirded.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But they are not lost drug addicts.

Just as J842P pointed, out she didn't say they were drug addicts. I think you missed the point Camille was making. She claimed that instead of fighting the real fight, they switched to an easier proxy fight, and a wrong fight. A part of that was to see LSD as something more than what it was. As if it was something that could enlighten the world. It couldn't and didn't.

The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

You're completely misconstruing what Paglia is saying. If you can produce great philosophy outside of the academic system... go right ahead. It's just that Paglia doesn't think there's a coincidence that people turning their backs to academia in the 70'ies coincided with a dumbing down of the political progressive discourse.

No, the academic life isn't the supreme form of life. But it does help if your plan is to have any kind of philosophical break-through or significance. I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-academic thinkers were all basically a bunch of New-Age fluffies spouting endless nonsense.

If you want to get better at something you need the best teachers an people to challenge you. Academia is designed to challenge new ideas as much as possible. It's hard passing through the eye of the needle. That is by design. So that when you do manage to do it it's probably solid. That is why there's authority to academic texts. It's not because we're supposed to. It's simply based on them being more successful. It's an earned respect and authority. Something which the hippies disregarded and ended up producing nothing but pseudo scientific nonsense.

BTW, everybody who has ever managed to make a scientific or philosophic breakthrough was schooled in traditional academia. This is true even for those who became famous after leaving academia. There's a reason for that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

— Allen Ginsberg, opening lines from "Howl", 1955

BTW, I love Allen Ginsberg. The biggest balls in the universe. The world needs more people like him. Who don't give a flying fuck about what the various fan clubs think. I love that guy.

 

[untermensche]

Just as J842P pointed, out she didn't say they were drug addicts. I think you missed the point Camille was making. She claimed that instead of fighting the real fight, they switched to an easier proxy fight, and a wrong fight. A part of that was to see LSD as something more than what it was. As if it was something that could enlighten the world. It couldn't and didn't.

Her "analysis" is on the level of a child.

She uses some incident where some great leader of the Communists disagreed with her to paint them all with the same brush.

She really is very stupid.

The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

You're completely misconstruing what Paglia is saying. If you can produce great philosophy outside of the academic system... go right ahead. It's just that Paglia doesn't think there's a coincidence that people turning their backs to academia in the 70'ies coincided with a dumbing down of the political progressive discourse.

No such thing has happened. Nothing has been "dumbed down".

That again is painting a whole lot with the same brush.

The woman is full of shit.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Her "analysis" is on the level of a child.

She uses some incident where some great leader of the Communists disagreed with her to paint them all with the same brush.

She really is very stupid.

Fun how you sweep away one of Western intellectual thought's most influential thinkers from the last 50 years. I think she used that person as an example of a wider problem. A problem which I remember and agree with. As a teenager I was a communist. I recognise the thinking.

The academic life is not the only life or most supreme life.

You're completely misconstruing what Paglia is saying. If you can produce great philosophy outside of the academic system... go right ahead. It's just that Paglia doesn't think there's a coincidence that people turning their backs to academia in the 70'ies coincided with a dumbing down of the political progressive discourse.

No such thing has happened. Nothing has been "dumbed down".

That again is painting a whole lot with the same brush.

The woman is full of shit.

What planet are you living on? Postmodernism became the dominant school of thought in the 70'ies to the 00'ies. Which is interesting since it's basically literary criticism. Outside that very narrow usage it has very little substance to it. Dumb! Only now is philosophy and sociology regaining some sanity. The result is generations of kids who have no respect for philosophy. Great going guys!

 

[untermensche]

Fun how you sweep away one of Western intellectual thought's most influential thinkers from the last 50 years.

I don't sweep it away. I see how she draws conclusions and can clearly see she is irrational.

She says things like people's minds were destroyed by LSD. Something that is factually wrong.

What planet are you living on? Postmodernism became the dominant school of thought in the 70'ies to the 00'ies.

Fads are all irrational.

Tell me what is important about this idea "Postmodernism"?

Something most people never heard of and have no need of.