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Koch-backed study finds ‘Medicare for All’ would save U.S. trillions

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I mean, I can see how the very wealthy people might want to be allowed to jump the queue at triage; Or to get luxury services while poor people can't get treated for genuinely life threatening conditions. But not why anyone else would want to let them.

If I was "very wealthy" I think I'd self-insure and find one of those concierge doctors. That way I wouldn't get the feeling he has one foot out the door during the viisit. If you have the resources to cover medical care why hire a middle man? The packages given to CEO's and other high earners are just window dressing. No medical bills and zero copays is like a coveted trophy. If they really looked at what it cost vs what the benefits amount to it would make more sense to take the cash instead.
 
This is one "think tanks" conclusion.

The question for any program like this is what priority will it be given?

Will Republicans support it or continually try to sabotage it like they do with Social Security and Medicare?

Before Reagan Social Security was not taxed.

Yeah. There's little doubt Medicare-for-all would be cheaper than the current system.

However, I would expect to see what we see with UHC systems elsewhere--a slow erosion of the care provided. With the Republicans it likely would be even worse.

Which is a direct result of shortsightedness among those with access to government, something along the lines of "but I can afford to be healthy so why should I subsidize someone who can't?" Or in easier terms, "fuck you, I got mine!"

It's exactly the same problem we see with the right with education: they don't see an uneducated population as a problem despite the only real difference between a first world country and a third world shithole being exactly the education level of said country, far more than any other factor.

The basic problem is that people vote their short-sighted self-interest. So long as a UHC system does a tolerable job on the routine maintenance stuff (birth control, maintenance drugs for common medical issues) and emergency stuff (most anything you belong in the ER for) most people will be happy. The minority that has medical issues that don't fall into either of these categories (cancer, the quality of life things like joint replacement etc) get outvoted by those who don't.

Hence without some strong check on watering down (something I haven't heard of any UHC system having) the result is an erosion of care for such issues.
 
This is one "think tanks" conclusion.

The question for any program like this is what priority will it be given?

Will Republicans support it or continually try to sabotage it like they do with Social Security and Medicare?

Before Reagan Social Security was not taxed.

Yeah. There's little doubt Medicare-for-all would be cheaper than the current system.

However, I would expect to see what we see with UHC systems elsewhere--a slow erosion of the care provided. With the Republicans it likely would be even worse.

That's the reality. There will be a certain amount of rationing. Not like the horror stories the GOP spouts that come out of their ass. I have a good deal of neck problems. One day a massage therapist came to my place of business, and I went. It was great. I got an email later, turns out my insurance covered further massages without even blinking about it, at hundreds of bucks a pop. That kinda shit will go, or you'll have to pay extra for such privileges. I'm fine with that, actually.

Hundreds of bucks for a massage is overpriced.

And those GOP horror stories would be quite real if we had a UHC system and the GOP in power. They would want it to fail as badly as possible. Just look at what they are doing to the ACA. Their latest tactic of permitting not-so-short-term plans with underwriting requirements is basically resurrecting the old system running in parallel with the ACA, which will of course draw away the healthy ones.
 
There's already rationing. It's currently done on the whim of unelected and medically unqualified insurance company employees. How could letting doctors or even elected officials do it possibly be worse?

How can it make more sense to allocate medical care on the basis of wealth, than on the basis of medical need?

I mean, I can see how the very wealthy people might want to be allowed to jump the queue at triage; Or to get luxury services while poor people can't get treated for genuinely life threatening conditions. But not why anyone else would want to let them.

Currently done by insurance company employees??

We are currently victims of a pretty minor form of this (costs us $80/yr.) Courtesy of the US government, not of an insurance company employee. Fortunately, we are allowed to pay out of pocket.
 
That's the reality. There will be a certain amount of rationing.
With limits to resources, there is always rationing. That is the reality. The question is not whether to ration but on what basis. Republicans, conservatives and libertarians prefer to ration health care via the market process (i.e. prices and consumer incomes). UHC is an attempt to minimize or eliminate the use of the market to ration health care.

Yes, there's rationing now by the insurance companies, a lot of people seem to forget that for some reason.
 
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I mean, I can see how the very wealthy people might want to be allowed to jump the queue at triage; Or to get luxury services while poor people can't get treated for genuinely life threatening conditions. But not why anyone else would want to let them.

If I was "very wealthy" I think I'd self-insure and find one of those concierge doctors. That way I wouldn't get the feeling he has one foot out the door during the viisit. If you have the resources to cover medical care why hire a middle man? The packages given to CEO's and other high earners are just window dressing. No medical bills and zero copays is like a coveted trophy. If they really looked at what it cost vs what the benefits amount to it would make more sense to take the cash instead.

Concierge doctors and health insurance are not mutually exclusive...
 
As that famous saying goes: " There's no such thing as a free lunch!" Maggie Thatcher's also now famous saying also applies. " Sooner or later, socialists run out of other peoples money!" As proven in almost every single failed socialist state.

https://nypost.com/2016/01/31/bernie-and-the-high-cost-of-free-health-care/

Bernie and the high cost of free health care?

How about the high cost of my not free health care. My insurance is $8,000 per year before I use any services. My employer picks up most of the tab but that is my wages; I just never get to touch them. If I put my family on the insurance then it goes to $15,000. That's pretty damned expensive.

If the US went to single payer and I no longer had to shell out $8,000 per year to the insurance company but instead we had our income tax go up to pay for the single payer system, would my income tax go up by $8,000 per year? It doesn't cost the advanced European countries with single payer $8,000 per year per person. What are we doing wrong here?
 
Sooner or later when capitalists gamble, they run out of money. That's why banks step in to help Trumps and governments step in to help banks. Of course when governments fail, capitalists step in to steal everything and then gamble again. It's the circle of life.

Like it or not, most successful democracies world wide are capitalist states, as most other forms are abysmal failures.
 
As that famous saying goes: " There's no such thing as a free lunch!" Maggie Thatcher's also now famous saying also applies. " Sooner or later, socialists run out of other peoples money!" As proven in almost every single failed socialist state.

https://nypost.com/2016/01/31/bernie-and-the-high-cost-of-free-health-care/

Bernie and the high cost of free health care?

How about the high cost of my not free health care. My insurance is $8,000 per year before I use any services. My employer picks up most of the tab but that is my wages; I just never get to touch them. If I put my family on the insurance then it goes to $15,000. That's pretty damned expensive.

If the US went to single payer and I no longer had to shell out $8,000 per year to the insurance company but instead we had our income tax go up to pay for the single payer system, would my income tax go up by $8,000 per year? It doesn't cost the advanced European countries with single payer $8,000 per year per person. What are we doing wrong here?

Like I said before. There's no such thing as a free lunch! How would Americans or Australians as well for that matter like to pay the taxes paid in all welfare states?


https://money.cnn.com/2013/04/01/pf/taxes/top-income-tax/index.html

Had Bernie won endorsement and today was the president of the USA, he wold have either bankrupted America within a couple of years, or would have had to raise taxes to historically high rates.
 
Sooner or later when capitalists gamble, they run out of money. That's why banks step in to help Trumps and governments step in to help banks. Of course when governments fail, capitalists step in to steal everything and then gamble again. It's the circle of life.

Like it or not, most successful democracies world wide are capitalist states, as most other forms are abysmal failures.

Like it or not, most successful states are hybrids.
 
Sooner or later when capitalists gamble, they run out of money. That's why banks step in to help Trumps and governments step in to help banks. Of course when governments fail, capitalists step in to steal everything and then gamble again. It's the circle of life.

Like it or not, most successful democracies world wide are capitalist states, as most other forms are abysmal failures.

Like it or not, most successful states are hybrids.

Hybrids such as governments running some aspects of the economy, like loss making enterprises such as public transport for example yes, agreed, but only private enterprises with public shareholders who receive a return on their shares are what makes or breaks a country.
 
As that famous saying goes: " There's no such thing as a free lunch!" Maggie Thatcher's also now famous saying also applies. " Sooner or later, socialists run out of other peoples money!" As proven in almost every single failed socialist state.

https://nypost.com/2016/01/31/bernie-and-the-high-cost-of-free-health-care/

Bernie and the high cost of free health care?

How about the high cost of my not free health care. My insurance is $8,000 per year before I use any services. My employer picks up most of the tab but that is my wages; I just never get to touch them. If I put my family on the insurance then it goes to $15,000. That's pretty damned expensive.

If the US went to single payer and I no longer had to shell out $8,000 per year to the insurance company but instead we had our income tax go up to pay for the single payer system, would my income tax go up by $8,000 per year? It doesn't cost the advanced European countries with single payer $8,000 per year per person. What are we doing wrong here?

Like I said before. There's no such thing as a free lunch! How would Americans or Australians as well for that matter like to pay the taxes paid in all welfare states?


https://money.cnn.com/2013/04/01/pf/taxes/top-income-tax/index.html

Had Bernie won endorsement and today was the president of the USA, he wold have either bankrupted America within a couple of years, or would have had to raise taxes to historically high rates.

You're kidding, right? Have you not seen what the Bonespurs party has been doing lately. We are well on our way to becoming a bankrupt country.
 
While I support the concept of UHC, I don't think the numbers for Medicare for all are at all realistic, especially not without copays and premiums.

After I saw this OP, I did some extensive reading about the UHC systems in other countries. What I learned is just about every one of them is having difficulty maintaining them, due at least partly to the high cost of all the new technology that has been created in health care in recent years, along with the fact that most Westernized countries have low birth rates and aging populations. Older adults tend to have a lot more health problems compared to younger adults and children. The other countries that have UHC have higher tax rates and less spending on defense than we do. And, while I'm on board for lowering our defense spending, I don't see that as a reasonable expectation considering how the military industrial complex has so much influence on our politicians. And, even if it was cut back substantially, it would not be enough to cover Medicare for all. One more thing. The idea that people with coverage will stop running to the ER hasn't worked out that way. It's a problem in most countries. I guess there are a lot of people who will avoid seeing a doctor until they are desperate enough to rush to the ER. This type of care is far more expensive and apparently, no good solution has been found yet to change that behavior.

Another thing that I learned is that most of the countries that have UHC aso have copays, and often don't cover basic primary care, while they do cover what we might consider catastrophic care, or any care that involves serious illness. Some countries have a fairly substantial VAT to help pay for their UHC. The VAT has a tendency to be a burden on poor people.

Some of the other problems that I see with establishing Medicare for all, especially without premiums and copays, is that obesity has added a lot to the cost of our care. I'm not judging obese people. I consider it a disease of modernity, but obesity is a high risk factor for a variety of serious diseases, some of which can be very expensive to treat. As a former professional nurse, I have learned that Americans, generally speaking, often have unreasonable expectations as to what medical care can do for them. They often expect the most expensive treatments, regardless of how effective those treatments might be. And, there are a lot of physicians who have the idea that they must do everything for the patient, even if the patient is a 90 year old suffering from end stage dementia. I've seen this many times, and it's usually not due to greed, as the providers that I've seen doing this often order tests and procedures that they don't personally benefit from, so that's another part of our medical culture that would have to change.

But, speaking of greed, our current system is pretty much a profit driven one. This wasn't always the case, but starting in the mid to late 80s, I saw almost every aspect of health care become based on profit. How do we change that culture? Medicare doesn't pay nearly as much as most private insurance policies do, so some providers have stopped taking Medicare recipients. I just had a mammogram. Medicare pays 88 dollars for it, but the usual charge is over 300 dollars. That does seem very high but there is a lot of overhead to consider when one has a test or procedure. So, how is all of that overhead maintained if the rate paid is always on the low end?

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but pretending that we can somehow magically change from what we have now without adding a lot to the deficit and with out paying copays and premiums, sounds as absurd as the Christian claim that Jesus is coming again. Perhaps we could have a system like many of the European countries do, based on non profit insurance policies, with some limitations in coverage, while subsidizing those at the bottom of the economic pie, it would eventually become a reality.

Finally, how on earth do you think there will ever be enough support for Medicare for all? Obama had a very difficult time getting enough support from the Democrats for the ACA. Do you honestly think that Congress would be willing to pass free care for all? I hate to say this but I strongly believe that the politicians, including some of my favorites, are being either very dishonest or very unrealistic, when they say they support Medicare for all. So, where do we go from here? The one thing that I plan on doing is voting for Stacey Abrams this fall. She wants to expand Medicaid, which I feel is a good start at helping low income folks have access to care. Most of the women that I worked with prior to my retirement, would be eligible for Medicaid if it is expanded. Overwhelming change is usually done gradually. If the obstructionist Republicans had worked over the years to tweak the ACA, instead of doing everything in their power to defeat it or overturn it, we'd probably have a fairly decent type of coverage for most people by now. Sorry for the long post, but there's a lot to consider when talking about changing our system.
 
Like it or not, most successful states are hybrids.

Hybrids such as governments running some aspects of the economy, like loss making enterprises such as public transport for example yes, agreed, but only private enterprises with public shareholders who receive a return on their shares are what makes or breaks a country.

That isn't true at all. So many tech innovations are initially publicly funded through, for example university research or govt grants, but then for-profit takes over at some point. And even for-profits get grant or welfare. That makes it even more of a hybrid.
 
Profit seems to be a dirty word in these discussions. It's profit that creates employment and the wealth of a nation. Without profit there would be no taxes paid by corporations and their employees thereby no funds to pay for such things as free healthcare and innovations.
 
Profit seems to be a dirty word in these discussions. It's profit that creates employment and the wealth of a nation. Without profit there would be no taxes paid by corporations and their employees thereby no funds to pay for such things as free healthcare and innovations.

Profit doesn't create employment. It pointedly leeches from the employed. You can't have profit without a robbery from those who create value, and humans are wire to seek to create value. there will always be people seeking to turn that which exists into things that they and others want. The only question is how we mete out that which exists.
 
The nice thing about socialist health care is that one of the first insights is that much can be done with preventative care. It's incredibly cheap. Does very often require force. But people are idiots and many things are contagious. I'm all for it.

I've lived both in Sweden and Denmark. Works great
 
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