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Landscaping and Black Privilege?

Trausti said:
But only if they can blame whitey. If not, don't care.

Since you are now broad-brushing blacks I have to ask what happened to your ideology? You used to only write in terms of averages, but now your post seems to have graduated to full fledged blanket generalizations. How do you justify such language?
 
If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

You are not making any sense, and you are bordering on racist and you don't know it. Not all black people have the same life experience... Some suffer greatly at the hands of others because of their race, and others benefit from their race, and from the proxy treatment they for sharing a race with the former. And also, you do NOT have to look at the sum of all things to realize that something is a privilege. Each advantage and disadvantage exist and do not cancel one another out and cease to exist.
 
If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

You are not making any sense, and you are bordering on racist and you don't know it. Not all black people have the same life experience... Some suffer greatly at the hands of others because of their race, and others benefit from their race, and from the proxy treatment they for sharing a race with the former. And also, you do NOT have to look at the sum of all things to realize that something is a privilege. Each advantage and disadvantage exist and do not cancel one another out and cease to exist.

You are trying to argue privileges, not BLACK privileges. If you want to claim something is a black privilege, wouldn't it have to apply to all black people which is the exact criticism people say about why WHITE privilege is not a real thing? So why is it okay for you to believe in black privilege but not white privilege and why the fuck would that make me racist against white people for asking?
 
You are trying to argue privileges, not BLACK privileges. If you want to claim something is a black privilege, wouldn't it have to apply to all black people which is the exact criticism people say about why WHITE privilege is not a real thing? So why is it okay for you to believe in black privilege but not white privilege and why the fuck would that make me racist against white people for asking?

White privilege IS a real thing. Its just often (but no, not always) an accusation made against people who don't hold it in a given situation.

If you are treated differently and better than me because you are white, then you are benefiting from white privilege. Same goes in a situation wherein I benefit over you because I'm not white.
 
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Why do you automatically assume that it was a "racist incident"? It seems to me more likely to be a generic "get off my lawn situation".

Oh and inherent in your characterization of "black privilege" is that somehow all white people should be held responsible for anything any white people did in history. That is racist in itself.
 
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If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

You are not making any sense, and you are bordering on racist and you don't know it. Not all black people have the same life experience... Some suffer greatly at the hands of others because of their race, and others benefit from their race, and from the proxy treatment they for sharing a race with the former. And also, you do NOT have to look at the sum of all things to realize that something is a privilege. Each advantage and disadvantage exist and do not cancel one another out and cease to exist.

This is an assertion you like to make whenever you cannot make a cogent argument to support your view. Why is that?
 
Yours is a very, very confused argument. If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

I'm a bit confused don. Did someone say there was black privilege involved in the OP story?
 
Yours is a very, very confused argument. If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

I'm a bit confused don. Did someone say there was black privilege involved in the OP story?

Did you deliberately ignore the post that Don was responding to? Or did you simply miss the parts where Jolly wrote speculating about black privilege?

Here's the post that Don was responding to. My highlights:

Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
Please refer to previous discussion of this idea of "black privilege" some are saying in the forum. My problem with the examples has been that if you slap someone in the face and then give them a dollar, that's not a privilege, it's an undefined net thing.
1. No, it need not be looked at only in sum. We all have both privileges and disprivileges. You can look at each benefit or detriment in isolation. You can then blend them all together and speak of overall privilege, but doing so doesn't erase the individual privileges.

2. Privilege is comparative. It means you benefit in a way somebody else does not. It is unjust when granted for something you didn't earn or suffer (both racism and inheritance are fundamentally unjust). Often it is granted by racial or other proxy (identity politics in action).

A person who is slapped in the face and offered a dollar for it is not privileged by that over somebody who was not slapped in the face. But they most definitely are privileged over somebody who was slapped in the face and not offered a dollar for it.

If the reason they are offered the dollar is because they are black and the other person who was slapped in the face is not, so they get no dollar, then yes, that can properly be called a "black privilege". If other black people who were not slapped in the face then also get dollars by proxy, then that is an even more blatant form of it.

That dollar is both a privilege in isolation and a privilege maker in sum as compared to those who are otherwise the same but not granted it.

Perhaps you are merely confused by Jolly's stretch of credulity in his claims?
 
This is an assertion you like to make whenever you cannot make a cogent argument to support your view. Why is that?

I could be wrong, but maybe you see it that way because you can't fathom racism coming from the left, or maybe because you didn't actually pay attention to what I wrote other than the word "racist?"(that's all you responded to). You say that my words are not cogent, but I'm pretty sure you haven't made any attempt to understand them.

I explained what the racism is in the very text you quoted (and bolded). You shouldn't judge people or make presumptions about people because of their race. Nor should you treat them a particular way because they share a race with somebody else who you feel should be treated that way. People of a particular race are not all the same, with the same lived experience and opinions and ideas, despite the constant implication of regressives otherwise.
 
Did you deliberately ignore the post that Don was responding to? Or did you simply miss the parts where Jolly wrote speculating about black privilege?

Here's the post that Don was responding to. My highlights:

Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
Please refer to previous discussion of this idea of "black privilege" some are saying in the forum. My problem with the examples has been that if you slap someone in the face and then give them a dollar, that's not a privilege, it's an undefined net thing.
1. No, it need not be looked at only in sum. We all have both privileges and disprivileges. You can look at each benefit or detriment in isolation. You can then blend them all together and speak of overall privilege, but doing so doesn't erase the individual privileges.

2. Privilege is comparative. It means you benefit in a way somebody else does not. It is unjust when granted for something you didn't earn or suffer (both racism and inheritance are fundamentally unjust). Often it is granted by racial or other proxy (identity politics in action).

A person who is slapped in the face and offered a dollar for it is not privileged by that over somebody who was not slapped in the face. But they most definitely are privileged over somebody who was slapped in the face and not offered a dollar for it.

If the reason they are offered the dollar is because they are black and the other person who was slapped in the face is not, so they get no dollar, then yes, that can properly be called a "black privilege". If other black people who were not slapped in the face then also get dollars by proxy, then that is an even more blatant form of it.

That dollar is both a privilege in isolation and a privilege maker in sum as compared to those who are otherwise the same but not granted it.

Perhaps you are merely confused by Jolly's stretch of credulity in his claims?

Was that about the story in the OP though? It didn't necessarily seem to be. It seemed to be a hypothetical.

Judging by don's opening line, I half thought something had been said about it before this thread.
 
By predominately other black people. See Chicago / Baltimore / Ferguson Effect



Because when young black men kill other black men at Iraq war levels, the liberals don't take to the streets. Doesn't fit the narrative.

but hey, I found this one hypothetical situation in which a white guy got the raw end of the deal, so therefore we should ignore the much larger amount of injustice going the other way and conclude that it is African-Americans who have the unfair advantage in our society. Sweet fucking fuckcakes.

Or maybe there are just assholes in the world. Imputing racism to everything is silly. It's like when religious nuts say the occurrence of bad things is evidence that Satan is active in the world. Satan!

You guys complain about my "parody" posts, but the reality is always far more ludicrous than any of my satire posts.

Just for a challenge, would any conservolibertarians here care to explain to me how the Nazis were the "real victims" of the Jews during the Holocaust from WW2? I mean, that's the logical next step after crying about "black privilege," isn't it?

Who here has made that argument? Who?

Wow. So, you honestly don't se the connection between white politicians making policies that deprive black people of economic opportunities, and which force the opportunities they do have to be conducted absent of any legal protection, and then you criticize them when they settle their grievances in the only way available.

Either you can volunteer your tax dollars for equal educational opportunity, open your business to employ them, or legalize the economic activities that their culture centers around (i.e., end the drug war).
 
No matter how much racism, systemic injustice, etc. that a minority group gets subjected to, there's always a white supremacist conservolibertarian alt-right free speech warrior somewhere claiming that the privileged group are somehow the "real victims."
Under, just because something bad happens to somebody who is black does not mean it happened to him because he is black.
And being white does not give one immunity from being a victim of racism either.
Each case must be judged on its own merits.

Innocent African-Americans are routinely killed for being born African-American,
Really? How about showing some evidence?
If in the US this "routinely" happens show me ten cases from this year where it happened. Should be very easy to find ten cases in the country the size of the US if it happens "routinely".
So show me some cases where
- an innocent black person was killed
- he or she was killed because they were black and not for example because they robbed a store and attacked a police officer like St. Michael of Ferguson.

when African-Americans beg for the killings to stop they get called terrorists and sometimes lose their jobs,
Nobody calls blacks "terrorists" for that. When #BLM is comapred to terrorists is their violent tactics like rioting, arson, etc.
Blocking highways is also a damaging tactic that goes well beyond peaceful protest or voicing one's opinion.

but hey, I found this one hypothetical situation in which a white guy got the raw end of the deal, so therefore we should ignore the much larger amount of injustice going the other way and conclude that it is African-Americans who have the unfair advantage in our society. Sweet fucking fuckcakes.
You ignore every case where white people get disadvantaged or discriminated, inflate claims of blacks getting disciminated and, voila, you get the conclusion that you wanted to get a piori - that blacks are uniquely oppressed in the US.

You guys complain about my "parody" posts, but the reality is always far more ludicrous than any of my satire posts.
Your "parody" posts are getting very tedious. Not to mention that they have been all about knocking down straw men from the beginning.

Just for a challenge, would any conservolibertarians here care to explain to me how the Nazis were the "real victims" of the Jews during the Holocaust from WW2? I mean, that's the logical next step after crying about "black privilege," isn't it?
When you have a rational argument, come back. :rolleyes:
 
Wow. So, you honestly don't se the connection between white politicians making policies that deprive black people of economic opportunities,
Like what for example?
And btw, if a black politician (like say Sheriff of Clayton County, Georgia) deprives white people of economic opportunity (like say by firing all white deputies) how is that ok?

and which force the opportunities they do have to be conducted absent of any legal protection, and then you criticize them when they settle their grievances in the only way available.
Either you can volunteer your tax dollars for equal educational opportunity, open your business to employ them, or legalize the economic activities that their culture centers around (i.e., end the drug war).
I think you live in the 40s or 50s, because this whole paragraph seems stuck in that era. These days blacks have legal protections, have access to employment (in government offices above that of whites due to so-called affirmative action) and education (again, due to affirmative action, over that enjoyed by whites with same grades and scores).

Also, to say that black culture centers around dealing drugs is quite condescending. Not that drug war should not be ended for other reasons.
 
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Please refer to previous discussion of this idea of "black privilege" some are saying in the forum. My problem with the examples has been that if you slap someone in the face and then give them a dollar, that's not a privilege, it's an undefined net thing.

You must have a strawman factory in your basement, given the number of these threads you've started.

No, being given money for actually and personally being wronged is not a "privilege". However, being given money just for kinda sharing some physical features with other people who were wronged is a privilege. This is especially true, when tons of other people actually did get wronged don't get any money because they don't have the "correct" physical features and therefore any wrongs against them are discounted.

Show me an affirmative action policy that states "People who have been personally wronged are especially encouraged to apply." No, they say things like "Minorities and other under-represented groups are strongly encouraged to apply." They mention nothing about being wronged or any actual personal relevant quality of the applicant, only what group that person can be categorized in based upon skin color or ethnic background. And while encouraging more applicants is not itself a privilege, actual AA policies go much further and use race a deciding factor. As all the mountain of data on AA policies at Universities shows, this usually means that people with objectively lower qualifications that predict worse future performance get privileged due to their race over others with greater qualifications. This is the only way we would get the result we do where accepted black applicants have notably lower high school gpas and test scores than white applicants that get accepted. Unless there are zero whites getting rejected, that could only happen if whites are being rejected for blacks withe objectively lower qualifications. Those who belong to certain categories get special privileges, even when that means a person who was not personally wronged gets a privilege at the direct expense of another person who has been personally wronged (such as a white applicant who got better grades despite coming from lower SES, a worse school, an abusive homelife, etc.).

No, it is generally not a net gain in privileges to be black. It is a net loss on average. And yet there are still instances of some blacks getting privileges just for being black, and this coming at cost of direct harm to some whites who have had it no easier and occasionally worse than the black person who got the privilege. On balance this happens less often than the reverse, but those instances do not occur with the deliberate endorsement and backing of government. Every instance of racial privilege is an injustice with individual victims and that erodes the principles of fairness. Injustice is not corrected by additional injustice. And principles of fairness actually most protect people in groups with less power. So, even injustices intended to benefit members of a minority group (aka, affirmative action) actually will cause greater injustices to members of those groups in the long run.

It is true that blacks on average experience a disproportionate amount of injustices and hardships. But the answer to that is not simply treat race as a proxy for hardship, which is what AA does and in itself will cause injustice and hardship. The answer to directly take into account actual hardship with more direct measures of it (e.g., such as parental income: have students submit their parents' tax return if they want to be given special consideration). This will indirectly wind up helping a higher % of blacks than whites (which is all most leftists seem to care about), but will also target that help toward the blacks that most need it while also helping others who need it too. As an added bonus, it won't give white racists the cover for their own discrimination that AA does by having public institutions openly endorsing racial discrimination.
 
It is true that blacks on average experience a disproportionate amount of injustices and hardships. But the answer to that is not simply treat race as a proxy for hardship, which is what AA does and in itself will cause injustice and hardship. The answer to directly take into account actual hardship with more direct measures of it (e.g., such as parental income: have students submit their parents' tax return if they want to be given special consideration). This will indirectly wind up helping a higher % of blacks than whites (which is all most leftists seem to care about), but will also target that help toward the blacks that most need it while also helping others who need it too. As an added bonus, it won't give white racists the cover for their own discrimination that AA does by having public institutions openly endorsing racial discrimination.

It is possible to calculate outcomes in different ways. Counting the small number of adversely affected 'majority/privileged' is one calculation. Measuring the overall state of the nation over a 10-year period is another. Is the USA, or will it be, a better or worse place now because of the affirmative actions taken?

My issue with AA is, does it work, in the way it's intended to? I don't think it's clear that it does/has in the USA from what I read. So there is a case for saying 'look for alternatives' and I think the one you are suggesting is arguably an improvement.

I bet it's complicated though. I would not be surprised if AA worked better in some areas than in others. Over here, we had it for the Police Force. I think it was a good idea for that. University entrances might be a different kettle of fish. I think a case could also be made that AA in favour of women has been overall a good thing over the last 50 years.
 
Did you deliberately ignore the post that Don was responding to? Or did you simply miss the parts where Jolly wrote speculating about black privilege?

Here's the post that Don was responding to. My highlights:

Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
Please refer to previous discussion of this idea of "black privilege" some are saying in the forum. My problem with the examples has been that if you slap someone in the face and then give them a dollar, that's not a privilege, it's an undefined net thing.
1. No, it need not be looked at only in sum. We all have both privileges and disprivileges. You can look at each benefit or detriment in isolation. You can then blend them all together and speak of overall privilege, but doing so doesn't erase the individual privileges.

2. Privilege is comparative. It means you benefit in a way somebody else does not. It is unjust when granted for something you didn't earn or suffer (both racism and inheritance are fundamentally unjust). Often it is granted by racial or other proxy (identity politics in action).

A person who is slapped in the face and offered a dollar for it is not privileged by that over somebody who was not slapped in the face. But they most definitely are privileged over somebody who was slapped in the face and not offered a dollar for it.

If the reason they are offered the dollar is because they are black and the other person who was slapped in the face is not, so they get no dollar, then yes, that can properly be called a "black privilege". If other black people who were not slapped in the face then also get dollars by proxy, then that is an even more blatant form of it.

That dollar is both a privilege in isolation and a privilege maker in sum as compared to those who are otherwise the same but not granted it.

Perhaps you are merely confused by Jolly's stretch of credulity in his claims?

Was that about the story in the OP though? It didn't necessarily seem to be. It seemed to be a hypothetical.

Judging by don's opening line, I half thought something had been said about it before this thread.

Not this incident but this type of incident, for example, the anecdote at Starbucks was used to make the unsubstantiated statistical claim about such privilege and that is also a weird way to call something privilege, given the mixture of harm and compensation.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are to discuss _BLACK_ privilege, then you have to take the whole thing into account not focus on cherry-picking which cherries you want to pick to support your confirmation bias. Being black is being black, it isn't being black when the gofundme page works and not black all other times. So to classify something as black privilege like an ideologue would do requires an analysis of black, not merely some small justice that came about at some point in a small window of time.

You are not making any sense, and you are bordering on racist and you don't know it. Not all black people have the same life experience... Some suffer greatly at the hands of others because of their race, and others benefit from their race, and from the proxy treatment they for sharing a race with the former. And also, you do NOT have to look at the sum of all things to realize that something is a privilege. Each advantage and disadvantage exist and do not cancel one another out and cease to exist.

This is an assertion you like to make whenever you cannot make a cogent argument to support your view. Why is that?

Thank you. As an aside, I am not sure why Jolly is attacking my character. He seems to be assuming things about me that he is saying people shouldn't assume which is a weird double standard.
 
...affirmative action ...

this thread is not about affirmative action or racism or whether the lady was a racist. it's about a bad idea to call a particular class of thing a <insert race> privilege. the class of thing in this instance has a basis of a single anecdote with no statistical or universal (depending on what you think) substantiation, just an anecdote...and further the class of thing has as you point out linkage between "being wronged." So there is no need to discuss affirmative action. On the other hand, THERE IS a need to discuss whether such a thing is a <insert race> privilege because there are people in this thread saying so. Yet you are calling it a straw man. So, again, the anecdote of Starbucks was called an <insert race> privilege but you are claiming that "being given money for actually and personally being wronged is not a "privilege." AA is simply a different topic with a whole host of different issues--to include first and foremost a definition that each side does not agree upon--and discussing AA pushing the scope of this thread to the beyond since that is not what it is about. if you want to argue with someone, I suggest you argue with Derec who used the term to refer to the Starbucks incident or argue with Jolly who disagrees with you about the linkage of being wronged.
 
This is an assertion you like to make whenever you cannot make a cogent argument to support your view. Why is that?

I could be wrong, but maybe you see it that way because you can't fathom racism coming from the left, or maybe because you didn't actually pay attention to what I wrote other than the word "racist?"(that's all you responded to). You say that my words are not cogent, but I'm pretty sure you haven't made any attempt to understand them.

I explained what the racism is in the very text you quoted (and bolded). You shouldn't judge people or make presumptions about people because of their race. Nor should you treat them a particular way because they share a race with somebody else who you feel should be treated that way. People of a particular race are not all the same, with the same lived experience and opinions and ideas, despite the constant implication of regressives otherwise.

I was deliberately responding to how you like to throw around the word racist.

I agree that people should not be judged according to their skin color, perceived race or ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc. However, people ARE judged precisely for these attributes in social situations, in institutional and legal settings and so forth. That is what this entire thread is about: White people getting so bent out of shape at the mere sight of a black person, even a child exhibiting a strong work ethic! that they must call the police for imagined infractions. Which is annoying enough but also considerably more malevolent. It is not a secret that unarmed black children have been shot dead by police within seconds of arriving upon a scene.

But here you are, pretending that we must ignore the absolute fact that black people face considerably more danger at the hands of police officers and white people simply because of the color of their skin. I don't actually think you are stupid so whenever I read such a mess from you, especially asserting that someone is racist for noticing and speaking up about racism! I find I ask myself why it is that you feel compelled to make such ill founded assertion.

But deflect away.
 
I agree that people should not be judged according to their skin color, perceived race or ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc.

So stop doing that. It isn't very complicated.

But here you are, pretending that we must ignore the absolute fact that black people face considerably more danger at the hands of police officers and white people simply because of the color of their skin.

Are you being dishonest or delusional? I didn't write anything about police violence.
 
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