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Language in Russia and Ukraine - political implications (derail from Russia-Gate in US Poli forum)

Copernicus

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Although I'm certain that people get beaten in Ukraine for speaking both Russian and Ukrainian, a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian or Surzhyk (blend of Russian and Ukrainian) as their native language. Ukrainian is the dominant language in western portions of the country, whereas Russian predominates in the east. It is not a policy of the Ukrainian government to stamp out Russian. Zelensky's Ukrainian sitcom (available on Netflix) is in Russian, not Ukrainian, but he now speaks Ukrainian during public events. In comedy routines during his early career, he played a character that sometimes mocked those who spoke Ukrainian.
 
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Although I'm certain that people get beaten in Ukraine for speaking both Russian and Ukrainian, a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian or Surzhyk (blend of Russian and Ukrainian) as their native language. Ukrainian is the dominant language in western portions of the country, whereas Russian predominates in the east. It is not a policy of the Ukrainian government to stamp out Russian. Zelensky's Ukrainian sitcom (available on Netflix) is in Russian, not Ukrainian, but he now speaks Ukrainian during public events. In comedy routines during his early career, he played a character that sometimes mocked those who spoke Ukrainian.

it is absolutely policy of the Ukrainian government to stamp out Russian. The fact that some in the government don't speak ukrainian at all is no problem for them. Ukrainization is like trumpism in republican party. The base likes it, so they support it even though don't really give a fuck.
 
Although I'm certain that people get beaten in Ukraine for speaking both Russian and Ukrainian, a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian or Surzhyk (blend of Russian and Ukrainian) as their native language. Ukrainian is the dominant language in western portions of the country, whereas Russian predominates in the east. It is not a policy of the Ukrainian government to stamp out Russian. Zelensky's Ukrainian sitcom (available on Netflix) is in Russian, not Ukrainian, but he now speaks Ukrainian during public events. In comedy routines during his early career, he played a character that sometimes mocked those who spoke Ukrainian.

it is absolutely policy of the Ukrainian government to stamp out Russian. The fact that some in the government don't speak ukrainian at all is no problem for them. Ukrainization is like trumpism in republican party. The base likes it, so they support it even though don't really give a fuck.

It is ludicrous to say that Ukrainianization is somehow a bad policy in Ukraine, as if Ukrainian were somehow not desirable in Ukraine, where over 60% of the population is said to speak Ukrainian. Ukrainian is the official language of the country, and it makes perfect sense to promote fluency in Ukrainian, which had been exposed to Russian dominance for centuries. Promoting Ukrainian is not a policy of stamping out Russian. In fact, Russian is still widely used everywhere, and many Ukrainians struggle with it. For example, President Zelensky himself is a native speaker of Russian and struggles to improve his fluency in Ukrainian. Everyone in Ukraine ought to learn and speak Ukrainian, but Russian is never going to die out, given the very powerful dominance of Russia in the region. The linguistic situation there is extremely complex, especially when you take into account the widespread use of Surzhyk. Ukrainians who wish to travel to and live in former areas of the Soviet Union find that Ukrainian is of little or no use to them, but people traveling to Ukraine find Russian extremely useful. Hence, attempts by the government to limit the influence of Russian in Ukraine are not going to be as successful as Ukrainian nationalists imagine. This will not change, and Ukrainians will continue to learn and speak Russian everywhere, but especially in eastern regions, where Ukrainian is a minority language.

I will concede that there are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians who would like to stamp out Russian, but there is (and has been for centuries) an ethnic rivalry between Russians and Ukrainians, not to mention other nationalities. So there are regions where attempts have been made to ban Russian, although those attempts are legally questionable. Article 10 of the Ukrainian constitution protects minority languages, despite efforts in the past two years to pass laws that violate it. What drives those attempts are the same passions that drive ethnic Russians to want to stamp out Ukrainian. Because Russian is still so dominant in the country and the region, those attempts will continue, because Ukrainian really is more under pressure from Russian over its survival than vice versa. Language is an intensely political issue, and it can lead to extreme violent reactions sometimes in ethnic populations that feel themselves under threat. Ukraine is not the only country with such problems. Far from it. And Ukrainian-dominant speakers will continue to feel threatened by the use of Russian.

 Languages of Ukraine
 
Here you go again, giving lecture on Russian-Ukrainian to a .... russian.
There are regular news stories from Ukraine about people beating each other about use of language.
And language itself is not well defined. There is spectrum ranging from pretty much russian all the way to half-polish :)

Constitution this, constitution that. The fact is, they keep trying to ban everything but "ukrainian"
At one point they tried to do just that. Then Hungarian population revolted, so they made a correction of allowing European Union languages. Pretty inventive of them, right? found a way to ban russian without explicitly naming it :) In practice they try to ban Hungarian regardless of their proclaimed policies. They have to, because Hungarian part is pretty much left Ukraine, they all have Hungarian passports, the same way Crimeans had russian passports.

And ukrainian have never been used for anything other than speaking at home. There are no technical literature/books in ukrainian. Education has always been in russian.
You have to invent language and then translate everything into it.
 
Here you go again, giving lecture on Russian-Ukrainian to a .... russian.

And not just any russian, no siree!
This one is totally conversant in and familiar with American English, including idioms and even some regional colloquialisms. Has been active on American social media for at least 15 years and is expert at expressing views to blunt salient criticisms of the Russian government, opening paths of dismissal with whataboutisms, equivocations and both-sidesisms.
Nope, not just any russian.
 
Here you go again, giving lecture on Russian-Ukrainian to a .... russian.
There are regular news stories from Ukraine about people beating each other about use of language.
And language itself is not well defined. There is spectrum ranging from pretty much russian all the way to half-polish :)

Obviously, you don't know much about languages, and you have certainly never studied Ukrainian, which I have. Ukrainian does have some Polish loanwords and expressions, but that is only to be expected, given its importance during in the Polish-Lithuanian Empire (which briefly used Belarussian as a court language). Many Ukrainian nationalists do try to suppress Russian, because they see Russian as a major threat to their culture and national identity. That is little different from the situation in Ukraine during its occupation by the Russian Empire, which banned Ukrainian in schools from 1804 to the Revolution, although the ban was never imposed on western regions of the country. It was the second most widely spoken language in the Russian Empire. Ukrainian was officially recognized as a national language during the Soviet period, but everyone was forced to learn Russian. That was when Russian nationalists saw Ukrainian as a local threat to Russian. (see  Ukrainian language for reference.) You could buy plenty of written materials in Ukrainian during the Soviet period. The language has always been a perfectly well-defined language with its own literature. Your "spectrum" remark is misinformed and could apply just as well to French and Italian, which have blended into each other at the French-Italian border since Roman times. Perhaps a better example would be Norwegian and Swedish, which are clearly separate languages that blend into each other. Russian and Ukrainian produce the same blending effect as you move from Moscow to Kiev. There is no single place where Russian ends and Ukrainian begins, but the languages are very different and well-defined when you consider the literary dialects that dominate in those two separate countries. Ukrainian even has its own standardized alphabet.

Constitution this, constitution that. The fact is, they keep trying to ban everything but "ukrainian"
At one point they tried to do just that. Then Hungarian population revolted, so they made a correction of allowing European Union languages. Pretty inventive of them, right? found a way to ban russian without explicitly naming it :) In practice they try to ban Hungarian regardless of their proclaimed policies. They have to, because Hungarian part is pretty much left Ukraine, they all have Hungarian passports, the same way Crimeans had russian passports.

Yes, Ukraine is going through some serious growing pains when it comes to dealing with minority languages like Hungarian, Moldovan, and Rumanian, but those languages are far less widely spoken than Russian, which poses a major challenge to Ukrainian nationalism. The situation has been made worse by the Russian invasion and annexation of Ukrainian territory. So that has give nationalists a lot of leverage to pass restrictive and unconstitutional laws in the past couple of years. But you need to put such struggles in perspective. Russian is not going away, and it really does pose a threat to nationalists who would like to see a revival of Ukrainian culture and language, now that Moscow no longer controls the country. The problem for Ukrainian nationalists is that Russian is too widespread and too important to be suppressed. They will be even less successful than Russians have been at trying to suppress Ukrainian. That doesn't mean that they won't successfully pass some laws--even ones blatantly unconstitutional--that attempt to suppress Russian. Either they will learn to stop doing that and accept reality, or they will continue to have unnecessary ethnic strife in the country over language policies. Russia, however, is not in any position to lecture Ukrainian or other nationalists on how to deal with their minority languages. Russians are equally guilty of exactly the same behavior, especially under Putin's rule.

And ukrainian have never been used for anything other than speaking at home. There are no technical literature/books in ukrainian. Education has always been in russian.
You have to invent language and then translate everything into it.

You are hopelessly ignorant on this subject. There is a huge technical and artistic literature in Ukrainian. Education was not always in Russian, and the Russian Empire only banned it in schools that were in middle and eastern portions of the country. That ban was unsuccessful at eradicating Ukrainian, so it was lifted during the Soviet period. Ukrainians are now in the process of building up the Ukrainian educational materials that were never promoted under Russian ethnic dominance. However, the fact remains that Russian is a necessary language for Ukrainians simply because of its historical dominance. That doesn't mean that it is wrong for a country to try to support and revive the language that it considers central to its national interest--the literary dialect of Ukrainian. The majority of speakers in Ukraine still consider Ukrainian to be their first language, so that only makes sense.
 
Here you go again, giving lecture on Russian-Ukrainian to a .... russian.

And not just any russian, no siree!
This one is totally conversant in and familiar with American English, including idioms and even some regional colloquialisms. Has been active on American social media for at least 15 years and is expert at expressing views to blunt salient criticisms of the Russian government, opening paths of dismissal with whataboutisms, equivocations and both-sidesisms.
Nope, not just any russian.
Are you calling me amercian troll? thank you!
 
Copernicus, you keep doing it.
There is no technical literature in Ukrainian. There have never been any need for that. Ukraine have been "independent" only for last 6 years, and they suck at it.
It costs money to invent language and then translate Landau-Lifshitz to it.
And people are not dumb, they know that it's more practical to speak russian than only ukrainian, because you can at least emigrate to Russia. Polish is good if not better too.

Ukraine is a failed state and it is on you and EU. You did that.
 
Copernicus, you keep doing it.
There is no technical literature in Ukrainian. There have never been any need for that. Ukraine have been "independent" only for last 6 years, and they suck at it.
It costs money to invent language and then translate Landau-Lifshitz to it.
And people are not dumb, they know that it's more practical to speak russian than only ukrainian, because you can at least emigrate to Russia. Polish is good if not better too.

You really have no idea of the extent of your ignorance on the subject of language. Ukrainians don't need to invent a new language to write technical papers any more than Russians do. Every language on Earth is capable of expressing technical concepts. If they don't have existing words to express a concept, they either borrow from another language or make up a word. You really haven't ever given this much thought, have you?

There are vastly more technical papers written in English than Russian, but that doesn't make Russian inferior to English for expressing technical concepts. Russian scientists and scholars prefer to publish their best work in English for the same reason that everyone does--to give their work the widest possible exposure. Russia has a much larger technical literature than Ukraine for the simple reason that there are far more speakers of Russian than Ukrainian. It has nothing at all to do with the ability of Ukrainian to express technical concepts.

Given that Ukrainian is not all that different from Russian, it is a puzzle to me why you think that it is so inferior to Russian. Perhaps it is just that you have been too long exposed to Putin's nativist rants and lack the intellectual curiosity to improve your knowledge on the subject.

Ukraine is a failed state and it is on you and EU. You did that.

Ukraine is still there even in spite of a debilitating invasion from a neighboring country that has seized a large chunk of their territory. They seem to be holding on pretty well for a failed state, but I don't think you can blame the US and EU for Russia's unprovoked invasion of its neighbor or for any of its other provocations and aggressions against foreign countries. Russia is responsible for its own bad behavior, no matter how many excuses you try to come up with.
 
You really have no idea of the extent of your ignorance on the subject of language.
That's pretty rich.
You are a victim of anti-russian propaganda.

Again, there is zero amount of technical literature in ukrainian, not very little, zero!
Do you understand the difference between "zero" and "very little"?
You have to take a book in russian or english and translate it to ukrainian when there are no ukrainian words to describe most of the terms in it. Russian had centuries to invent and borrow words at a very slow and natural pace.
You can do that for ukrainian but you would have people in Ukraine dying laughing.
Everyone who cares, speak and was educated in russian and is not going to use your new language tomorrow. You would have to wait until they all die, and then wait until all their students die.
The fact that ukrainian is similar to russian makes it harder not easier. People would rather switch to russian than to bother with this nonsense.


It is utter nonsense. There is a video somewhere of ukrainian government meeting. And at the time ukrainian government had a bunch of people from Georgia (don't ask why and not USA Georgia, just Country Georgia). None of the georgians spoke ukrainian, some ukrainians spoke some ukrainian, but everybody in that meeting spoke russian. They started in ukrainian, I think, it clearly went nowhere. So guess which language they switched to?
 
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By the way, another language factoid. I don't know how it is now but during soviet time and decade after, Bulgaria did not bother too much with translating books and simply used russian ones. They all studied russian in school and they all spoke russian rather well. I have met a lot of people from Eastern Europe and USSR (Lithuania, etc) in US.
Some hide the fact that they speak russian, some don't, but they all do, some do so very well. Younger generation obviously is less likely to speak russian.
 
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...cientific+journals&hl=en&as_sdt=0,38&as_vis=1
You really have no idea of the extent of your ignorance on the subject of language.
That's pretty rich.
You are a victim of anti-russian propaganda.

Again, there is zero amount of technical literature in ukrainin, not very little, zero!
Do you understand the difference between "zero" and "very little"?

Why do you do this barbos?

You must know many of us have access to science via Scholar.

Urkranian scientific journals https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...cientific+journals&hl=en&as_sdt=0,38&as_vis=1

The very first article cited in this grab of journals explains how and why some might write stuff like what you post. Basically Ukranian scientific journals have bee added since 1991.


http://National orientation of Ukrainian journals: means-ends decoupling in a semi-peripheral state

snip

Taking Ukraine as an example, this article aims to contribute to the exploration of Scopus-indexed journals from semi-peripheral states. To achieve this aim, an Index of National Orientation of Publications (INO-P) and an Index of National Orientation of Citations (INO-C) were defined for 48 Ukrainian journals based on publications in 2014–2016 and citations to these publications in 2017 in Scopus. The study employs a disciplinary perspective.

snip
 
Wow, I did not know that ukrainian was so similar to english.

Their women are generally more attractive than Russians too. And the way they sound when they speak is so sexy compared with the gruf, manly characteristics of Russian.
So, ya, I agree much more like the cool kids.
 
Wow, I did not know that ukrainian was so similar to english.

Their women are generally more attractive than Russians too. And the way they sound when they speak is so sexy compared with the gruf, manly characteristics of Russian.
So, ya, I agree much more like the cool kids.

I know little about this topic; indeed I'm at a total loss to even know what the topic IS! I trust that someone(s) will kindly post an executive summary of the thread, and especially the recent sub-debate, for the benefit of kibitzers like myself.
 
You really have no idea of the extent of your ignorance on the subject of language.
That's pretty rich.
You are a victim of anti-russian propaganda.

Barbos, your level of ignorance on the subject of language is obvious from the content of what you post and has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Russian propaganda, although I suspect much of your opinion is shaped by anti-Ukrainian propaganda. Your ideas about Ukrainian are utterly misinformed and frankly absurd. You apparently do not speak or read Ukrainian, so how would you even know what the scientific literature is like in Ukrainian? I have been exposed to a wide variety of Slavic languages since the 1960s, and I have seen plenty of technical materials published in the Ukrainian language even since Soviet times. Seriously, what you have been saying is not only wrong, but, to paraphrase the Austrian scientist, Wolfgang Pauli, what you have been saying about Ukrainian is so not right that it isn't even wrong.

Again, there is zero amount of technical literature in ukrainian, not very little, zero!
Do you understand the difference between "zero" and "very little"?

Oh, definitely, but the problem is that you don't. You have to have realized at some point that "zero" was unsustainable hyperbole. Even in Soviet times, there was a technical literature in Ukrainian. I myself worked part time in the Ohio State University library, which was a major repository for Eastern European books. Because of my ability to read Cyrillic, I processed many technical materials that were in Ukrainian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, etc. And that was back in the late 1960s. Back then, Ukrainians did publish mostly in Russian, because there were very few ways to get published in Ukrainian and because the audience was much more limited. Nowadays, Ukrainian journals tend to be published not in Russian, but in English, because Ukraine has closer ties with the West, and academics in all countries tend to prefer to disseminate materials in English. Ukrainian scholars still publish a lot in Russian, because they all speak Russian and there are a lot more journals that simply won't accept materials written in Ukrainian. You can find lots of online references to science and other technical subjects in the Ukrainian language nowadays, but you simply haven't bothered to look. Instead, you seem to have some vague idea that there is something inferior about the Ukrainian language. It is very similar to the kind of jingoistic nonsense about Ukraine that has been spilling our of the mouth of your "benevolent tsar", who infamously remarked that Ukraine isn't even a country. And that was before he ordered the invasion of Ukraine.

You have to take a book in russian or english and translate it to ukrainian when there are no ukrainian words to describe most of the terms in it. Russian had centuries to invent and borrow words at a very slow and natural pace.
You can do that for ukrainian but you would have people in Ukraine dying laughing.
Everyone who cares, speak and was educated in russian and is not going to use your new language tomorrow. You would have to wait until they all die, and then wait until all their students die.
The fact that ukrainian is similar to russian makes it harder not easier. People would rather switch to russian than to bother with this nonsense.

I suspect that most of what you know about Ukraine has come largely from Russian sources and Ukrainian ethnic Russians, who are largely opposed to Ukrainianization. So you have bought into a lot of the biased myths about Ukraine that seem to be floating around Russia, as it struggles with world condemnation for its unprovoked invasion of its neighbor. What drives scientific and scholarly publication has nothing to do with the linguistic properties of Russian or Ukrainian. It has to do with the need to publish and disseminate ideas. Ukrainians face the same problem that Bulgarians, Romanians, Poles, Czechs, and other countries with official languages that aren't familiar to most of the rest of the world. Russian is the eighth most popular language in the world, so it does not face the same issues when it comes to technical publications. That is why most of what you say about Ukrainian "isn't even wrong". You are focusing on the wrong thing when you blame the language for the relatively small (but still existent) amount of technical publications that appear in that language. Nowadays, however, Ukrainian journals tend to publish in English rather than Russian, because the politics inside the country have shifted to a more Western orientation.

It is utter nonsense. There is a video somewhere of ukrainian government meeting. And at the time ukrainian government had a bunch of people from Georgia (don't ask why and not USA Georgia, just Country Georgia). None of the georgians spoke ukrainian, some ukrainians spoke some ukrainian, but everybody in that meeting spoke russian. They started in ukrainian, I think, it clearly went nowhere. So guess which language they switched to?

Oh, what a surprise. Georgian is a Caucasian language--not even in the Indo-European family--and both countries had been absorbed into the Russian-dominated Soviet empire. What do you think this proves? That those languages are somehow inferior to Russian or that it just happened to be a common language that they spoke because of past Russian imperialism? Try to imagine how that might be analogous to the fact that so many international conventions these days are held in English rather than some other language. Could it be because the English Empire was the largest empire that ever existed on Earth? So Russia had a smaller empire. Does that make you feel inferior? Sorry, but your arguments are totally nonsensical at this point. If the Aztecs had spread their empire around the world, we would probably all be conversing in Nahuatl right now.

By the way, another language factoid. I don't know how it is now but during soviet time and decade after, Bulgaria did not bother too much with translating books and simply used russian ones. They all studied russian in school and they all spoke russian rather well. I have met a lot of people from Eastern Europe and USSR (Lithuania, etc) in US.

Yes, that is because Bulgaria and Lithuania, like Ukraine, did not have large empires that included populations that they could force to learn their languages. That is all. Can't you get that through your head? This has nothing to do with whether those languages are more or less able to express technical information. It has to do with how large and successful their armies were at conquering other nations.
 
Copernicus, what's up with your constant calling me ignorant?
Are you trolling me? cause I suspect you know you are talking BS.

Oh, what a surprise. Georgian is a Caucasian language--not even in the Indo-European family--and both countries had been absorbed into the Russian-dominated Soviet empire. What do you think this proves?
Answer the damn question. Guess the language they switched to?

Yes, that is because Bulgaria and Lithuania, like Ukraine, did not have large empires that included populations that they could force to learn their languages.
Yeah, damn Germany forced me to learn german in school, right?
You see this "Russia bad" virtually everywhere, don't you?
 
Oh, what a surprise. Georgian is a Caucasian language--not even in the Indo-European family-- ...
Nitpick: Georgian is a Kartvelian (South Caucasian) language. The "Caucasian language family" generally refers to North Caucasian, a language family completely unrelated to Kartvelian.

It is no coincidence that these small, almost vestigial, language families are spoken in the mountainous Caucasus. Basque is the last vestige of its family and is spoken in the mountains of Northern Spain; Burushaski and the Nuristani branch of Indo-Iranian are vestigial families spoken in the Hindu Kush; and so on. Ancient cultures are relatively difficult to dislodge from mountains.
 
As to Russian vs. Ukrainian, I get the impression that the two languages are partially mutually intelligible, much like Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish.

So it ought to be easy for Ukrainians to borrow words from Russian or else do calques (loan translations). Both are common ways of transmitting technical vocabulary.
 
So it ought to be easy for Ukrainians to borrow words from Russian or else do calques (loan translations). Both are common ways of transmitting technical vocabulary.
You have no idea. These people built a gas pipeline just to fool metering equipment into thinking that they are not importing natural gas from Russia. Borrow words from russian my ass.
 
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