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Leaving your Echo Chamber

 
 
 
J

Jolly_Penguin

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In my opinion, one of the downsides of the internet is that it allows and encourages people to go into echo chambers more than ever before and only listen to those they agree with. I think that this is one of the reasons why we see such stark polarization.

This forum itself is somewhat of a liberal echo chamber, but not nearly as much so as some others I have been to. I've also been to Freeconservatives and other extreme right wing echo chambers. I even wandered into StormFront at one point to see what goes on in their heads. Yes, I will listen to Tommy Robinson and Reza Aslan on Islam. Yes, I will listen to Steven Crowder and the Young Turks and the Humanist Report. I have listened to Black Lives Matter spokespeople when they make rational and calm arguments without screaming. I've listened to both Tim Wise and Larry Elder.

I am a bit of a rebel by nature, so I prefer being in online forums where mine is the minority view, and if too many agree with me I start to feel kind of like I am wasting my time, as I know I'm unlikely to see anything new to me :p

I enjoy seeing arguments from all sides, both because it allows me to see and relate to all sides and it also shows me arguments I may not have considered. There are plenty of GOOD arguments on both the left and the right, and if you don't think that is true, odds are that you have not truly listened to both sides. I myself lean heavily to the left, but I see the good arguments against my positions and think them through before dismissing them or finding them unconvincing to me. And if I have a thought I want to explore, I'll usually take it to a forum where I know people will of the opposite view, but ideally not hostile to the discussion.

Dave Rubin of the Rubin Report is a pretty good place for a liberal to listen to conservatives on youtube. Others, including some far right echo chambers, can also be worth a listen.

So I am curious how you folks perceive yourselves and how often you go out of your way to leave your echo chamber and put yourself deep into one of the opposite orientation. Are we in consensus that diversity of views is a good thing? That there should be no "Safe spaces"? That we should listen to those we disagree with, and that we may learn something from them?

What do you consider the best places to listen to the opposite of a given view you hold? If you are liberal, what is the best conservative channel to listen to? If you are conservative, what is the best liberal one?
 
Contrary to what is claimed by people far to the right, the media tilts right. It is owned by corporations and ultimately presents the world in a way that satisfies these powerful corporations.

The left does not exist in the mass media. It is fringe.

All opinion we hear on television are center to far right.

Nobody questions capitalism. Nobody supports socialism. Universal health insurance is discussed as if it is some strange idea that can't possibly work, yet is working everywhere except the US.

To go anywhere where ideas from the left are even mentioned is to leave the massive echo chamber created by concentrated wealth.
 
Its not hard to find places online that endorse single payer universal health care. You can even find them supporting Universal Basic Income (as I have on this forum). You can find them opposing capitalism in favour of Socialism. You just need to look beyond your immediate surroundings.

Yes, there are some right wing positions that are ingrained in your US media, but there are also some left. Your media is in its essence corporatist and that can lean in both directions on various issues (to the right on the economy yes, but often to the left on social issues). Anyway, let's not get derailed. This thread is not about the US Media. This thread is about leaving your echo chamber.

From your posts I have read, you are obviously socialist in your leanings. Where do you go to get the best arguments against Socialism and for Capitalism? Would you be likely to miss a really good argument against your position?
 
Jolly_Penguin said:
Its not hard to find places online that endorse single payer universal health care. You can even find them supporting Universal Basic Income (as I have on this forum). You can find them opposing capitalism in favour of Socialism. You just need to look beyond your immediate surroundings.

Yes, there are some right wing positions that are ingrained in your US media, but there are also some left. Your media is in its essence corporatist and that can lean in both directions on various issues (to the right on the economy yes, but often to the left on social issues). Anyway, let's not get derailed. This thread is not about the US Media. This thread is about leaving your echo chamber.

From your posts I have read, you are obviously socialist in your leanings. Where do you go to get the best arguments against Socialism and for Capitalism? Would you be likely to miss a really good argument against your position?
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You had neither major presidential candidate supporting it.

And nobody in the corporate main stream media caring.

And today you do not get good arguments from the right. It has become a religion. Nothing is supported by arguments that make any sense.

Take opposition to Universal Health insurance.

Give me the rational arguments against it. What is the argument that having huge amounts of money taken out of the system in the form of profits and high pay to corporate executives makes the system better? What is the argument that having millions without insurance makes the system better?

And not the emotional argument about how there is going to be rationing.

A reasonable argument about how it is worse than what currently exists.

And my leanings are simple.

I am against dictatorship in every form where it is destructive.
 
The best argument I have heard against single payer universal health care (which I strongly endorse) is the pointing out of my fellow Canadians going to the US for medical procedures you simply can't get in Canada here due to the rationing of health care.

We all get covered, but you do not have the option if you have the money to buy the next level up. More of a problem for the rich (or middle class) than for the poor, no doubt.

I, for example, sustained a full muscle tear of my right bicep last February. One of the tendons completely snapped. The other tendon is still connected, so I can still move the arm, but I will forever have a "popeye bump" as the bicep now looks malformed and the strength is down to about 80%.

There exists an operation to re-attach the tendon, if done within a month or two of the injury. This procedure is not available in Canada, because we ration the cost and the arm still functions, so it isn't considered essential. In our single payer system, I did NOT have the option to pay myself to have it done.

In the USA if I had good medical insurance or could afford to pay, I could have had it reconnected and saved it.

Yes, since Canada is so near the USA, I could have just gone to the USA to have it done, and many Canadians do. But that won't be the case if the USA goes single payer. But still, I would gladly give up the right to buy higher level health care if it means everybody gets the basic health care they need.
 
fromderinside said:
The arguments are capital investment makes the best engine of invention. it's false, but, its quite seductive to the information light.
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You can have capital investment in a lot of ways.

Within capitalism top down dictatorial control is legal and considered legitimate.

So we have replaced the dictators of wealth of the 16th Century, the King and his many scattered armies and administrators, with the dictators of wealth of the 21st Century. The multi-national corporations that control governments and also have armies at their command. Armies they do not have to pay a cent for.

We have made dictatorship more efficient.

Not replaced it with freedom.
 
untermensche said:
Contrary to what is claimed by people far to the right, the media tilts right. It is owned by corporations and ultimately presents the world in a way that satisfies these powerful corporations.

The left does not exist in the mass media. It is fringe.

All opinion we hear on television are center to far right.

Nobody questions capitalism. Nobody supports socialism. Universal health insurance is discussed as if it is some strange idea that can't possibly work, yet is working everywhere except the US.

To go anywhere where ideas from the left are even mentioned is to leave the massive echo chamber created by concentrated wealth.
Click to expand...

Cuba which is a poor country has maintained a cost effective universal free healthcare system for years. It's system also focuses on preventative measures rather than retrospective treatment.
 
this thread is getting away from the OP. Despite the fact that untermensche raises good points. I would counter that does this mean that mass immigration is right wing since corporations are pushing it?

Getting back to the OP effect is very real of self selecting.

Also there exist a lot of conscious shills for points of view. I will give an example that is happening now in the anti-SJW youtube freakshow that for some reason (loneliness?) I follow. These folks are pushing back correctly against some SJW excesses, while they also push back against things that SJWs do that are well thought out, measured and reasonable. Also, not just liberal/democratic minded people are criticizing the SJWs - there has been a stealth attempt to co-opt them by very right wing people.

In fact in the past week, "Rage After Storm" a European woman youtuber has pushed some rather intense Stormfront stuff that finally has gotten the anti-SJWs to be aware of the attempts at point of view shilling. So they are going after her, calling her a right wing SJW. This was after a couple weeks of them rightfully lampooning black supremacist Tariq Nasheed.
 
repoman said:
this thread is getting away from the OP. Despite the fact that untermensche raises good points. I would counter that does this mean that mass immigration is right wing since corporations are pushing it?

Getting back to the OP effect is very real of self selecting.

Also there exist a lot of conscious shills for points of view. I will give an example that is happening now in the anti-SJW youtube freakshow that for some reason (loneliness?) I follow. These folks are pushing back correctly against some SJW excesses, while they also push back against things that SJWs do that are well thought out, measured and reasonable. Also, not just liberal/democratic minded people are criticizing the SJWs - there has been a stealth attempt to co-opt them by very right wing people.

In fact in the past week, "Rage After Storm" a European woman youtuber has pushed some rather intense Stormfront stuff that finally has gotten the anti-SJWs to be aware of the attempts at point of view shilling. So they are going after her, calling her a right wing SJW. This was after a couple weeks of them rightfully lampooning black supremacist Tariq Nasheed.
Click to expand...

It's fascinating that you're aware of this at all to be honest. How long until you feel the need to take that avatar down because it gets too real I wonder...
 
I think I might get a version of the avatar that has a brown and black stripe for all the Kekistanis of Color (KOC), like they did for the Pride Flag.
 
repoman said:
I think I might get a version of the avatar that has a brown and black stripe for all the Kekistanis of Color (KOC), like they did for the Pride Flag.
Click to expand...

Maybe ditch the ridiculous looking Frisian-esque hearts?
 
If you were in the market for a new car and had it narrowed down to a particular Toyota and Honda, would you make your decision by watching all the Toyota and Honda commercials you could?

Listening to opinions from both sides is fine if, and only if you are willing to take notes and verify information afterwards. Otherwise, you're just listening to so many commercials. To often, I'm not willing to do the homework so I avoid listening to so many opinions less fragments of those opinions are later misremembered as facts.
What I do find of value from listening to opinions/news from the other side is occasionally there will be something this side did not touch on at all. That's worth doing my homework on, finding the facts and forming my own opinion.

If all you're doing is listening to opinions, you're just listening to so many commercials. It's all well and fine to step outside your echo chamber to see what else is going on in the world. Beyond that, facts will help pull you away from groupthink.
 
TV and credit cards said:
If you were in the market for a new car and had it narrowed down to a particular Toyota and Honda, would you make your decision by watching all the Toyota and Honda commercials you could?

Listening to opinions from both sides is fine if, and only if you are willing to take notes and verify information afterwards. Otherwise, you're just listening to so many commercials. To often, I'm not willing to do the homework so I avoid listening to so many opinions less fragments of those opinions are later misremembered as facts.
What I do find of value from listening to opinions/news from the other side is occasionally there will be something this side did not touch on at all. That's worth doing my homework on, finding the facts and forming my own opinion.

If all you're doing is listening to opinions, you're just listening to so many commercials. It's all well and fine to step outside your echo chamber to see what else is going on in the world. Beyond that, facts will help pull you away from groupthink.
Click to expand...

In the end it's the car which appeals most. One may be more fuel efficient but the other may have other advantages. Listening to opinions of course doesn't always answer anything.
 
An article describing exactly what I am talking about. We need to all find people from opposing world views who we nevertheless respect and feel are leading worthy lives. People we can fundamentally disagree with, and yet respect. The writer of this article calls them "Echo Busters" of our Echo Chambers. I like that term and think I will adopt it.

http://brazenchurch.com/escape-the-echo-chamber/

Who are your Echo Busters?
 
The most reasonable commentary from the right I have found is the Wall Street Journal.

But even that is filled with religious delusion.
 
I think that this is somewhat applicable here:

DD1iWOPW0AAoBMl.jpg

What happens is that any corrections and revisions to these websites are used by the opposing side (lefties use against righties too) and hammered really hard. It can drive a lot of traffic and views to the debunkosphere.

As an example, Salon.com had articles about the humanity and problems of non offending but creepy pedophiles. These articles were taken down slightly before and during the time when Milo Yiannopolous' comments about teen boys and adult men starting getting traction before CPAC. Then Salon hammered Milo. The archives of the old Salon articles made the rounds as well.

 
repoman said:
I think that this is somewhat applicable here:

View attachment 11712

What happens is that any corrections and revisions to these websites are used by the opposing side (lefties use against righties too) and hammered really hard. It can drive a lot of traffic and views to the debunkosphere.

As an example, Salon.com had articles about the humanity and problems of non offending but creepy pedophiles. These articles were taken down slightly before and during the time when Milo Yiannopolous' comments about teen boys and adult men starting getting traction before CPAC. Then Salon hammered Milo. The archives of the old Salon articles made the rounds as well.

Click to expand...


Applicable, but not in the way you mean... I'm pretty sure that's a fake screenshot generated and propagated by an alt-right echo chamber. Irony, amirite?
 
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