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Liberty, Freedom & free will. Does nature deny such concepts for humans?

I do know what nature says on this issue. He ,she, or it does not speak to me about it. I don't hear voices.

Our limits is in how our brains are wired as it has evolved.

As this is morality forum, if free will does not exist then can be no crimes. This has been touched on in crime drams regading gnetic predispoitions as a criminal defense.

There is no experiment that can show either case.

Karma is moral causality.

You might note how one of the few people I respect is also being plagued by universalist and shared blame for all crimes etc.

I wish I could chat with him. as I am swollen headed enough for my specialty to think I have the answers he has yet to glean.



I find it strange that you do not hear your DNA and chemical messages.

Try not eating for a couple of days. Your ears, so to speak, perk right up.

Your "As this is morality forum", made me wonder where you see the more moral type discussions.

""if free will does not exist then can be no crimes.""

It demonstrably does, within the bounds of physics and nature of course, so lets ignore this.

Regards
DL
 
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There are two threads about this in Other Philosophical Discussions.

The consensus is that Libertarian free will does not exist, cannot exist, and is in fact a nonsense concept. It is alleged in fact that it has been proposed in this nonsense way specifically so that people can argue against it as a straw man in an attempt to defend their "hard determinism".

The contention here is whether "free" and "will" can make sense at all in some other definition than the one that is clearly ridiculous.

Definitions have been proposed (by me because I'm the only one that gets that deep in the weeds) which allow math to be done on responsibility in particular. While you may dislike this, I am going to replace "free" and "will" with two other more precise terms. Feel free to utter "free" and "will" when you see them in this conversation, as unless you have a mental block around them, they are functionally the same, assuming you can accept my definitions!

First, we replace 'will':

let ••• be "a list of instructions executing against an interpreter unto a requirement".

I'll still use the term "will", just to be clear. But when I use it:

let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

You might say "well that doesn't seem very much like what I think of when I think of a will: as in 'free will'"

And even so, I bet you don't often think "where A and B are sets, and X is any element of a set, for every X in A AND B, X is in B AND X is in A" when you think =.

For it to make sense, we have to have a definition of free, as this also has a LOT of baggage and I'm on the "math" side, where we check those bags, please:

Let some thing be °°° "When a system shall pass through a given configuration or set of configurations at a given point in time"

This creates an interaction: a °°° ••• is then a set of instructions executed against an interpreter whose requirement shall come to pass.

You might then ask "well, how does °°°, •••, and °°° ••• make any use at all? How Can I use these?"

To understand this, we can imagine a scenario: someone (a dwarf, let's say) is in a room, and currently they hold a ••• in their head. That ••• is: open the door, walk down the hall, open another door, enter the hall, find someone there, and hit them (FIGHT!)

It's a list of instructions unto
a requirement (FIGHT!).

We might ask "is this ••• °°°: shall it come to pass that this dwarf actually fight someone?"

In the scenario, the answer is "no, the door is locked". Therefore "they lack the °°° in their ••• to fight, even if they have the ••• to do so."

So, then, something happens. As a result of this, the dwarf has some event happen in them. The failed ••• to fight gets replaced by a process which, frankly, is not important in the moment. In their new state they have a new requirement: Throw Tantrum, and a new ••• happens. We will call this •••(*).

This •••(*) is: "find all apparently accessible places. For each that contains a thing that can be thrown, broken, etc., add it to a list. Select an object from list. Assemble •••(A): Find path to [object], select destructive act, perform destructive act on [object]"

Note that this terminates in something whose requirement cannot easily fail. This means that •••(*) is necessarily °°°.

Now I can say "the dwarf has a •••(A) held by °°° •••(*)"

This is what is commonly understood when someone asks "does he have free will to act?", As really they are not going to be immediately concerned with whether •••(A) is °°°, though that may be contextually understood in some cases. Mostly, they are asking whether •••(*) was °°°.

There are some situations where •••(*) comes from outside rather than inside. That unspecified even that shoved •••(*) in place? Sometimes it's a gun in someone's face. At that point •••(*) is "do what the guy with the gun says" or simply "live", which subordinates the •••(A) to something not held by °°° ••• but rather imposed •••.

In some ways the •••(*) absent the gun is imposed in it's existence but not in it's operation. There is no "fetch other person's will", no abstraction to external influence at that point. So while it was not within their ••• to be needing to throw a tantrum, and so TANTRUM is not a °°° ••• held by requirements internal to the system... But which tantrum they throw is!
I would like to argue with you, but you have to shorten your reply and get more focused on what you are replying to.

"let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

Let that will of mine come to pass.

Our definitions are not far off.

Regards
DL
No, in fact your definition is essentially what I have attached to "free/°°°", not to "will/•••" as in "he formed a will to go to the store. The will was not free: he hit a flat tire on the way there."

Read in more words as "he created a list of instructions with a requirement of ending up at the store. The list failed it's requirement of ending up at the store: he hit a flat tire on the way there."
 
There are two threads about this in Other Philosophical Discussions.

The consensus is that Libertarian free will does not exist, cannot exist, and is in fact a nonsense concept. It is alleged in fact that it has been proposed in this nonsense way specifically so that people can argue against it as a straw man in an attempt to defend their "hard determinism".

The contention here is whether "free" and "will" can make sense at all in some other definition than the one that is clearly ridiculous.

Definitions have been proposed (by me because I'm the only one that gets that deep in the weeds) which allow math to be done on responsibility in particular. While you may dislike this, I am going to replace "free" and "will" with two other more precise terms. Feel free to utter "free" and "will" when you see them in this conversation, as unless you have a mental block around them, they are functionally the same, assuming you can accept my definitions!

First, we replace 'will':

let ••• be "a list of instructions executing against an interpreter unto a requirement".

I'll still use the term "will", just to be clear. But when I use it:

let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

You might say "well that doesn't seem very much like what I think of when I think of a will: as in 'free will'"

And even so, I bet you don't often think "where A and B are sets, and X is any element of a set, for every X in A AND B, X is in B AND X is in A" when you think =.

For it to make sense, we have to have a definition of free, as this also has a LOT of baggage and I'm on the "math" side, where we check those bags, please:

Let some thing be °°° "When a system shall pass through a given configuration or set of configurations at a given point in time"

This creates an interaction: a °°° ••• is then a set of instructions executed against an interpreter whose requirement shall come to pass.

You might then ask "well, how does °°°, •••, and °°° ••• make any use at all? How Can I use these?"

To understand this, we can imagine a scenario: someone (a dwarf, let's say) is in a room, and currently they hold a ••• in their head. That ••• is: open the door, walk down the hall, open another door, enter the hall, find someone there, and hit them (FIGHT!)

It's a list of instructions unto
a requirement (FIGHT!).

We might ask "is this ••• °°°: shall it come to pass that this dwarf actually fight someone?"

In the scenario, the answer is "no, the door is locked". Therefore "they lack the °°° in their ••• to fight, even if they have the ••• to do so."

So, then, something happens. As a result of this, the dwarf has some event happen in them. The failed ••• to fight gets replaced by a process which, frankly, is not important in the moment. In their new state they have a new requirement: Throw Tantrum, and a new ••• happens. We will call this •••(*).

This •••(*) is: "find all apparently accessible places. For each that contains a thing that can be thrown, broken, etc., add it to a list. Select an object from list. Assemble •••(A): Find path to [object], select destructive act, perform destructive act on [object]"

Note that this terminates in something whose requirement cannot easily fail. This means that •••(*) is necessarily °°°.

Now I can say "the dwarf has a •••(A) held by °°° •••(*)"

This is what is commonly understood when someone asks "does he have free will to act?", As really they are not going to be immediately concerned with whether •••(A) is °°°, though that may be contextually understood in some cases. Mostly, they are asking whether •••(*) was °°°.

There are some situations where •••(*) comes from outside rather than inside. That unspecified even that shoved •••(*) in place? Sometimes it's a gun in someone's face. At that point •••(*) is "do what the guy with the gun says" or simply "live", which subordinates the •••(A) to something not held by °°° ••• but rather imposed •••.

In some ways the •••(*) absent the gun is imposed in it's existence but not in it's operation. There is no "fetch other person's will", no abstraction to external influence at that point. So while it was not within their ••• to be needing to throw a tantrum, and so TANTRUM is not a °°° ••• held by requirements internal to the system... But which tantrum they throw is!
I would like to argue with you, but you have to shorten your reply and get more focused on what you are replying to.

"let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

Let that will of mine come to pass.

Our definitions are not far off.

Regards
DL
No, in fact your definition is essentially what I have attached to "free/°°°", not to "will/•••" as in "he formed a will to go to the store. The will was not free: he hit a flat tire on the way there."

Read in more words as "he created a list of instructions with a requirement of ending up at the store. The list failed it's requirement of ending up at the store: he hit a flat tire on the way there."
I was born French but handle English well.

Try either language and I can usually follow.

When I read your ludicrous post # 2, I should have gone with my instincts and ignored you.

Regards
DL
 
The OP drips of this concept, and it is a concept that may roundly be rejected,
The O.P. rejects your rejection.

You win the argument though.

Oh wait. You did not make one.

Regards
DL
If you want the discussion where everyone will argue quite effectively against the concept of libertarian free will, there are already TWO complete threads about that.
 
There are two threads about this in Other Philosophical Discussions.

The consensus is that Libertarian free will does not exist, cannot exist, and is in fact a nonsense concept. It is alleged in fact that it has been proposed in this nonsense way specifically so that people can argue against it as a straw man in an attempt to defend their "hard determinism".

The contention here is whether "free" and "will" can make sense at all in some other definition than the one that is clearly ridiculous.

Definitions have been proposed (by me because I'm the only one that gets that deep in the weeds) which allow math to be done on responsibility in particular. While you may dislike this, I am going to replace "free" and "will" with two other more precise terms. Feel free to utter "free" and "will" when you see them in this conversation, as unless you have a mental block around them, they are functionally the same, assuming you can accept my definitions!

First, we replace 'will':

let ••• be "a list of instructions executing against an interpreter unto a requirement".

I'll still use the term "will", just to be clear. But when I use it:

let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

You might say "well that doesn't seem very much like what I think of when I think of a will: as in 'free will'"

And even so, I bet you don't often think "where A and B are sets, and X is any element of a set, for every X in A AND B, X is in B AND X is in A" when you think =.

For it to make sense, we have to have a definition of free, as this also has a LOT of baggage and I'm on the "math" side, where we check those bags, please:

Let some thing be °°° "When a system shall pass through a given configuration or set of configurations at a given point in time"

This creates an interaction: a °°° ••• is then a set of instructions executed against an interpreter whose requirement shall come to pass.

You might then ask "well, how does °°°, •••, and °°° ••• make any use at all? How Can I use these?"

To understand this, we can imagine a scenario: someone (a dwarf, let's say) is in a room, and currently they hold a ••• in their head. That ••• is: open the door, walk down the hall, open another door, enter the hall, find someone there, and hit them (FIGHT!)

It's a list of instructions unto
a requirement (FIGHT!).

We might ask "is this ••• °°°: shall it come to pass that this dwarf actually fight someone?"

In the scenario, the answer is "no, the door is locked". Therefore "they lack the °°° in their ••• to fight, even if they have the ••• to do so."

So, then, something happens. As a result of this, the dwarf has some event happen in them. The failed ••• to fight gets replaced by a process which, frankly, is not important in the moment. In their new state they have a new requirement: Throw Tantrum, and a new ••• happens. We will call this •••(*).

This •••(*) is: "find all apparently accessible places. For each that contains a thing that can be thrown, broken, etc., add it to a list. Select an object from list. Assemble •••(A): Find path to [object], select destructive act, perform destructive act on [object]"

Note that this terminates in something whose requirement cannot easily fail. This means that •••(*) is necessarily °°°.

Now I can say "the dwarf has a •••(A) held by °°° •••(*)"

This is what is commonly understood when someone asks "does he have free will to act?", As really they are not going to be immediately concerned with whether •••(A) is °°°, though that may be contextually understood in some cases. Mostly, they are asking whether •••(*) was °°°.

There are some situations where •••(*) comes from outside rather than inside. That unspecified even that shoved •••(*) in place? Sometimes it's a gun in someone's face. At that point •••(*) is "do what the guy with the gun says" or simply "live", which subordinates the •••(A) to something not held by °°° ••• but rather imposed •••.

In some ways the •••(*) absent the gun is imposed in it's existence but not in it's operation. There is no "fetch other person's will", no abstraction to external influence at that point. So while it was not within their ••• to be needing to throw a tantrum, and so TANTRUM is not a °°° ••• held by requirements internal to the system... But which tantrum they throw is!
I would like to argue with you, but you have to shorten your reply and get more focused on what you are replying to.

"let 'will' be "shall come to pass".

Let that will of mine come to pass.

Our definitions are not far off.

Regards
DL
No, in fact your definition is essentially what I have attached to "free/°°°", not to "will/•••" as in "he formed a will to go to the store. The will was not free: he hit a flat tire on the way there."

Read in more words as "he created a list of instructions with a requirement of ending up at the store. The list failed it's requirement of ending up at the store: he hit a flat tire on the way there."
I was born French but handle English well.

Try either language and I can usually follow.

When I read your ludicrous post # 2, I should have gone with my instincts and ignored you.

Regards
DL
I use language mechanically, and more so than most, mostly because this is a "hard math" approach I am taking to the concept. When I discuss it, I make every attempt to avoid ambiguities in my speech, and construct sentences that are valid in modal logic.

Your use of "will: shall" is a conflation against "will: the will to do some thing".

They are entirely different usages.

I was born an autistic nerd and I handle English like an autistic nerd, because I'm an autistic nerd.

When you're going to try discussing things that my insanities drive me to care about as such, I'm going to be very precise. "Free will" is one of those things.

What I write about it will be about as dense and easily digested as a math textbook, because I'm engaging in the sorts of discussions had before the practice problems in a math textbook, where concepts are laid out formally, and proven as well as can be done with prior material learned. Moreover, I'm not sure "free will" has ever been broken down into mathematical terms before, ever.

You initiated a discussion of free will, whether it is a lie of nature.

Libertarian free will is paradoxical and there are some 50? Pages discussing how and why over in "Other Philosophical Discussions", much of it far less dense than I bring to the table and also admittedly far sloppier.

The only reason to avoid it would be religious attachments to "libertarian free will", whichever side of "hard determinism/hard libertarianism" you attach yourself to.

I will assure you though with the concept of free will I would offer, you keep your free will, even in a perfectly deterministic universe, which the universe seems very much to be.
 
modal logic
A purely subjective term inserted to confuse.

You fail your math test and show a second class logic trail.

I will take a quick look at your offerings and get back if required.

Regards
DL
Hey man, I'm doing a lot of lifting here.

It's been a while since I've had a class or even academic environment to correct some terminologies. I want to approach it as a math and I damn well will.

As I said, you could use free* or will* instead of little dots. I'm flexible on notation as long as we're all clear when we are saying "will:shall" and when we are saying "will:list of instructions unto a requirement"

We can even discuss whether "list of instructions unto a requirement" makes sense as an expansion of the term "will*".

I selected these definitions after testing them in a variety of sentences. Modal logic is the discussion of whether a sentence is true or false, hence my use of the term "modal logic".

I can say in modal logic "he had the free* will* to kill people, thus we must constrain his will*s more carefully in the future such that they may not be free*, lest some of our own will*s could not possibly remain free*."

Just try hammering my definitions into that sentence and it makes sense, and is also true assuming the predicate observation is true (that he killed someone of his own free* will*). I did that in my other post which you ridiculed.

The point here is to allow these terms to be used in a "modal logic" yes? That's the usage of the term as far as I know.
 
Hear my DNA? I hear it all the time.

It tells me to get an erection when I see an attractive woman.

It tells me to eat when I am hungry.

It tells me when my bladder is full.

Ween I work out it tels my heart to beta faster.
 
modal logic
A purely subjective term inserted to confuse.

You fail your math test and show a second class logic trail.

I will take a quick look at your offerings and get back if required.

Regards
DL
Hey man, I'm doing a lot of lifting here.

It's been a while since I've had a class or even academic environment to correct some terminologies. I want to approach it as a math and I damn well will.

As I said, you could use free* or will* instead of little dots. I'm flexible on notation as long as we're all clear when we are saying "will:shall" and when we are saying "will:list of instructions unto a requirement"

We can even discuss whether "list of instructions unto a requirement" makes sense as an expansion of the term "will*".

I selected these definitions after testing them in a variety of sentences. Modal logic is the discussion of whether a sentence is true or false, hence my use of the term "modal logic".

I can say in modal logic "he had the free* will* to kill people, thus we must constrain his will*s more carefully in the future such that they may not be free*, lest some of our own will*s could not possibly remain free*."

Just try hammering my definitions into that sentence and it makes sense, and is also true assuming the predicate observation is true (that he killed someone of his own free* will*). I did that in my other post which you ridiculed.

The point here is to allow these terms to be used in a "modal logic" yes? That's the usage of the term as far as I know.
I don't care.

I will argue simply and clearly and without trying to add bot like confusion.

I will let you argue with others with your own chosen language and terms.

Regards
DL
 
modal logic
A purely subjective term inserted to confuse.

You fail your math test and show a second class logic trail.

I will take a quick look at your offerings and get back if required.

Regards
DL
Hey man, I'm doing a lot of lifting here.

It's been a while since I've had a class or even academic environment to correct some terminologies. I want to approach it as a math and I damn well will.

As I said, you could use free* or will* instead of little dots. I'm flexible on notation as long as we're all clear when we are saying "will:shall" and when we are saying "will:list of instructions unto a requirement"

We can even discuss whether "list of instructions unto a requirement" makes sense as an expansion of the term "will*".

I selected these definitions after testing them in a variety of sentences. Modal logic is the discussion of whether a sentence is true or false, hence my use of the term "modal logic".

I can say in modal logic "he had the free* will* to kill people, thus we must constrain his will*s more carefully in the future such that they may not be free*, lest some of our own will*s could not possibly remain free*."

Just try hammering my definitions into that sentence and it makes sense, and is also true assuming the predicate observation is true (that he killed someone of his own free* will*). I did that in my other post which you ridiculed.

The point here is to allow these terms to be used in a "modal logic" yes? That's the usage of the term as far as I know.
I don't care.

I will argue simply and clearly and without trying to add bot like confusion.

I will let you argue with others with your own chosen language and terms.

Regards
DL
"Bot like confusion" is exactly what gets you out of "wishy washy philosophy" and into "logic annd math".

If you want to argue "simply" there is no way you can be clear with such things. It's either "simply and muddily" or "mechanical and correct", I'm afraid.
 
there is no way you can be clear with such things
Good teachers speak the language of the student before dragging them to their higher linguistic levels.

You are centered on and chat for yourself instead of the student you perceive.

Carry on alone.

Regards
DL
 

Liberty, Freedom & free will. Does nature deny such concepts for humans?​


For someone who rejects the supernatural, seems like we are back to nature as god with an intent.

Evolution is what it is. Evolution does not deny or enable anything. Evolution is blind.
 
there is no way you can be clear with such things
Good teachers speak the language of the student before dragging them to their higher linguistic levels.

You are centered on and chat for yourself instead of the student you perceive.

Carry on alone.

Regards
DL
As I said, there are a few discussions on it in Other PD with more accessible language, and various approaches taken. I encourage you to check those out.

I gave you definitions, and invited you to try simple exercises of word replacement, too. But suit yourself.
 

Liberty, Freedom & free will. Does nature deny such concepts for humans?​


For someone who rejects the supernatural, seems like we are back to nature as god with an intent.

Evolution is what it is. Evolution does not deny or enable anything. Evolution is blind.
Intent?

Your crap attitude is showing.

Try Inadvertent and grow your little mind.

Regards
DL
 
there is no way you can be clear with such things
Good teachers speak the language of the student before dragging them to their higher linguistic levels.

You are centered on and chat for yourself instead of the student you perceive.

Carry on alone.

Regards
DL
As I said, there are a few discussions on it in Other PD with more accessible language, and various approaches taken. I encourage you to check those out.

I gave you definitions, and invited you to try simple exercises of word replacement, too. But suit yourself.
Shall do.

Regards
DL
 

Liberty, Freedom & free will. Does nature deny such concepts for humans?​


For someone who rejects the supernatural, seems like we are back to nature as god with an intent.

Evolution is what it is. Evolution does not deny or enable anything. Evolution is blind.
Intent?

Your crap attitude is showing.

Try Inadvertent and grow your little mind.

Regards
DL
I ran this through my Star Trek Universal Translator. It interprets your post as ' I have no response to your citique'.
 
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