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Making abortion legal only for rape and incest will make rape and incest claims increase?

I can't understand the logic of it being legal for rape and incest but illegal otherwise. Either the unborn is viewed as our equal or isn't. If it is, then this would mean punishing an innocent for what somebody else did.

I agree with you completely on this point, and think that the quick easy way most conservatives are willing to allow for the exceptions just show that their real intent is to control women's bodies, not any genuine ethical issue with the "personhood" of the fetus
 
Ya, they made a bunch of adminstrative hurdles which nobody could manage, so all the potential providers got shut down. That means it's technically "available", if by "available" you mean "there is nobody available to do this". It's like how voter id laws give a simple requirement to get voter ids but then the offices to fill those requirements are only open in minority areas every third Tuesday from 8-11 am.
 
I live in the largest city in my state(give or take a few thousand people). A legal abortion is no longer available in this city, because of the "admitting privileges" rule. Does this qualify as a problem?

If it represented more than a disenfranchising of a small subset of people then it would be a huge problem, yes. My understanding was that this was a technical issue with doctors being required (for safety reasons) to be affiliated with a hospital. the effect was eliminating the ability to have 'abortion clinics' that are run by doctors that do not have an affiliation with a hospital. So it's not that it is impossible to get a legal abortion, but the requirements for a facility to provide the service were increased for safety of the patient.

Is that not the case.. am I totally confused?

You are confused. The law is deliberately designed to coerce women to not get abortions, by eliminating their access to doctor's who could provide them with the health care they need. That can only possibly cause harm to patients. Any women who needs hospital care due to something that went awry at a clinic (which happens less than 0.1% of the time) can get admitted to a hospital, regardless of whether the doctor who was performing the abortion has admission privileges. IF the law makers were concerned about this, they would have passed a law making it clear that all hospitals must admit any patient in need of emergency care due to complications at another medical facility.

Also, it doesn't merely disenfranchise "a small subset of people", but rather millions of women. You are correct in that the new law focuses "on a technical issue" in that they manufactured a pointless technicality in order to make abortions defacto illegal for millions of women, without directly banning them, in order to skirt the Constitution.
 
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Making abortion legal only for rape and incest will make safe abortions harder to get

Ending legal and safe abortion in the US is the goal of the anti-abortion movement and for all their blather about the life of the fetus, they will endanger that fetus, and the mother, to point where both expire, if it means that abortion will be illegal and their morality (which includes having those evil women die and writhe in hell for the sin of fornication.) Rape and incest exceptions are parts of an overall strategy to obstruct and delay abortion until the point of viability is past, a point they are lobbying to lower to the point eventually of conception. Safe Abortion maybe forever legal, but structurally impossible to get.
 
I guess that the incest provision couod work if it were possibke to do a DNA test of the fetus and look that the chromosomes and prove the incest.

Pretty damn invasive.
 
If it represented more than a disenfranchising of a small subset of people then it would be a huge problem, yes. My understanding was that this was a technical issue with doctors being required (for safety reasons) to be affiliated with a hospital. the effect was eliminating the ability to have 'abortion clinics' that are run by doctors that do not have an affiliation with a hospital. So it's not that it is impossible to get a legal abortion, but the requirements for a facility to provide the service were increased for safety of the patient.

Is that not the case.. am I totally confused?

You are confused. The law is deliberately designed to coerce women to not get abortions, but eliminating their access to doctor's who could provide them with the health care they need. That can only possibly cause harm to patients. Any women who needs hospital care due to something that went awry at a clinic (which happens less than 0.1% of the time) can get admitted to a hospital, regardless of whether the doctor who was performing the abortion has admission privileges. IF the law makers were concerned about this, they would have passed a law making it clear that all hospitals must admit any patient in need of emergency care due to complications at another medical facility.

Also, it doesn't merely disenfranchise "a small subset of people", but rather millions of women. You are correct in that the new law focuses "on a technical issue" in that they manufactured a pointless technicality in order to make abortions defacto illegal for millions of women, without directly banning them, in order to skirt the Constitution.

OK, so what is the legal status of this.. is it being challenged? Is there a good resource I can review to follow the progress of this? What state are we talking about, by the way?
 
I can't understand the logic of it being legal for rape and incest but illegal otherwise. Either the unborn is viewed as our equal or isn't. If it is, then this would mean punishing an innocent for what somebody else did.

I agree with you completely on this point, and think that the quick easy way most conservatives are willing to allow for the exceptions just show that their real intent is to control women's bodies, not any genuine ethical issue with the "personhood" of the fetus

You are right that any exemption contradicts the presumption of a full and equal personhood status for the fetus.

However, the anti-choicers could argue that the fetus is fully human with legal rights that prevent their killing except in extreme circumstances, but still not the complete rights a born child has, similar to how children do not actually have the same rights that adults do. Parents are given a level of control over their children akin that is closer to what is allowable towards prisoners than normal adults. Kids are not permitted to be without adult supervision, they have little rights to privacy from the parents, little rights of ownership, they can be treated in ways that would be minor assault or false imprisonment if done to an adult, they cannot vote or drink, etc..
Yet, they are still viewed as just as "human" as adults and have many rights that protect their life and welfare.

It could be argued that a fetus should be a notch below a post-birth child, and also be protected from actions (or neglect) that harms them, but if the mother being prevented from killing would likely cause severe harm to her physically or psychologically, then she would be allowed to terminate it. Note this logic could not apply to born kids because even if caring for them harms the mother, their is always the third option with them of given them to the State or someone else to care for.

Such an argument still greatly undermines the principle of individual rights, of which control over one's body is by far the most important. I'm just pointing out that legal "personhood" can be and really already is treated as a graded variable than a dichotomy.

Personally, I favor free and easily accessible abortions anytime, anywhere, for any reasons. I favor choice for principled reasons based in rights, but also favor society making abortion as easy and attractive an choice as possible, because the mother and society are better off if only fetuses that the mother has no doubts about wanting or being able care for are brought to term.
Rights are important, but they are our invention (neither god nor nature give a fuck if we have them). It is important that all people who act and interact with others in their community have rights and are forced to respect those of others. But fetuses don't meet that criteria, so "No rights for you!" It's important that once rights are granted to a person that they cannot be taken away unless the person act to forfeit them by violating the rights of others (IOW, criminal actions). But since we already give different levels of rights at different stages of development and we decide which species get them, then not giving any to a fetus until it is physically separated from the mother is a perfectly sensible thing to do, especially since rights are about being an individual and fetuses are not physically individuated from the mother.
 
I guess that the incest provision couod work if it were possibke to do a DNA test of the fetus and look that the chromosomes and prove the incest.

Pretty damn invasive.

What it does is gut the rationale of anti-abortionists who claim to be pro-life, especially what they label "innocent life." Any first year Socratic student could quickly dismantle any justification for abortion, based on the relationship between father and mother.

The "rape or incest" exclusion is basically a middle class(bourgeoisie) concern. It addresses the public shame and inconvenience of an unwanted pregnancy. This is a bigger concern to voters than the pro-lifers ever estimate.

The pro-life movement has never really been about sanctity of life. It is about approved sex, vs. unapproved sex. Pregnancy is a punishment for unapproved sex. Anything which relieves the punitive effects of pregnancy, encourages unapproved sex. Pregnancy from rape and incest are given a special class. It's not approved sex, but the mother gets a pass.
 
You are confused. The law is deliberately designed to coerce women to not get abortions, but eliminating their access to doctor's who could provide them with the health care they need. That can only possibly cause harm to patients. Any women who needs hospital care due to something that went awry at a clinic (which happens less than 0.1% of the time) can get admitted to a hospital, regardless of whether the doctor who was performing the abortion has admission privileges. IF the law makers were concerned about this, they would have passed a law making it clear that all hospitals must admit any patient in need of emergency care due to complications at another medical facility.

Also, it doesn't merely disenfranchise "a small subset of people", but rather millions of women. You are correct in that the new law focuses "on a technical issue" in that they manufactured a pointless technicality in order to make abortions defacto illegal for millions of women, without directly banning them, in order to skirt the Constitution.

OK, so what is the legal status of this.. is it being challenged? Is there a good resource I can review to follow the progress of this? What state are we talking about, by the way?


Texas has such laws and the 5th Circuit Court just upheld those laws, overturning a lower court ruling against them. Multiple other States are trying to push such laws through. A district Court in Wisconsin struck down such a law, so it is a matter of whether you live in a GOP controlled State. SCOTUS will eventually hear it, and the outcome could easily hinge on who replaces Scalia. However, Ginsberg is almost certainly going to retire or die in the next 4-8 years (she is 81) and Breyer may too (75). They are the only sure bets to protect abortion rights. If either one of them gets replaced during a GOP controlled White House, not only will these laws stand but outright bans on abortion will be upheld.

BTW, any economic conservative who isn't right-wing Christian would be rational to support free and easy access to abortions. The stats are clear that restricting abortion leads to more kids born into poverty, crime, and absent/poor parenting (no, they don't always go together but they all are related to unwanted or unprepared pregnancies).
That is more and more financial and social costs put on the taxpayer and need for larger and larger government to protect the welfare of those kids and house the disproportionate number of them that will wind up in prison eventually.
Heck, even if your just a racist, it makes sense to support abortion access, because non-white women are almost 5 times as likely to get abortions. Legal abortions have slowed down the unwhitening of America.

As usual, religion in politics is causing harm to progress and the interests and goals of almost everyone, except those whose sole goal is to force their religion on people.
 
If it represented more than a disenfranchising of a small subset of people then it would be a huge problem, yes. My understanding was that this was a technical issue with doctors being required (for safety reasons) to be affiliated with a hospital. the effect was eliminating the ability to have 'abortion clinics' that are run by doctors that do not have an affiliation with a hospital. So it's not that it is impossible to get a legal abortion, but the requirements for a facility to provide the service were increased for safety of the patient.

Is that not the case.. am I totally confused?

You are confused. The law is deliberately designed to coerce women to not get abortions, but eliminating their access to doctor's who could provide them with the health care they need. That can only possibly cause harm to patients. Any women who needs hospital care due to something that went awry at a clinic (which happens less than 0.1% of the time) can get admitted to a hospital, regardless of whether the doctor who was performing the abortion has admission privileges. IF the law makers were concerned about this, they would have passed a law making it clear that all hospitals must admit any patient in need of emergency care due to complications at another medical facility.

Also, it doesn't merely disenfranchise "a small subset of people", but rather millions of women. You are correct in that the new law focuses "on a technical issue" in that they manufactured a pointless technicality in order to make abortions defacto illegal for millions of women, without directly banning them, in order to skirt the Constitution.

And the laws themselves go further - requiring the doctors to affiliate with hospitals that are within a very narrowly defined geographic area, and then giving those hospitals (the boundaries were carefully drawn to only include private religious hospitals) the right to deny the affiliate for religious reasons. I will have to search for the links to the articles, but in one case I read about, the doctor already had admitting privileges at a hospital, but the municipality drew the boundary around his clinic to ensure that hospital didn't count for purposes of the law.
 
I agree with you completely on this point, and think that the quick easy way most conservatives are willing to allow for the exceptions just show that their real intent is to control women's bodies, not any genuine ethical issue with the "personhood" of the fetus

You are right that any exemption contradicts the presumption of a full and equal personhood status for the fetus.

However, the anti-choicers could argue that the fetus is fully human with legal rights that prevent their killing except in extreme circumstances...

It could be argued that a fetus should be a notch below a post-birth child, and also be protected from actions (or neglect) that harms them, but if the mother being prevented from killing would likely cause severe harm to her physically or psychologically, then she would be allowed to terminate it. Note this logic could not apply to born kids because even if caring for them harms the mother, their is always the third option with them of given them to the State or someone else to care for.

Except they really can't in the case of abortions and exceptions.

It is against the law to kill people, but we do make exceptions in some situations of self-defense (and in war). However, in the case of self-defense, the person you are allowed to kill is the person intending to do you harm, not some innocent bystander. So for the abortion exception in the case of rape or incest to be logically or ethically valid, these conservatives are taking the position that the fetus is harmful to the woman, and therefore she has the right to abort it.

If, on the other hand, it is permissible to "kill" the fetus if the fetus is going to cause "severe harm to her physically or psychologically", then that exception cannot logically or ethically be restricted to just rape/incest.

Moreover, a pregnancy from rape/incest is unlikely to be any more or less physically harmful than any other pregnancy, whereas the typical rape/incest exception does not always include the "life of the mother" exception.

The bottom line is that the typical conservative's position on abortion is not ever logically or ethically consistent, which makes it invalid. But when they do express logically consistent views, the sheer horror of their position becomes crystal clear - as Trump demonstrated the other day.
 
You are confused. The law is deliberately designed to coerce women to not get abortions, but eliminating their access to doctor's who could provide them with the health care they need. That can only possibly cause harm to patients. Any women who needs hospital care due to something that went awry at a clinic (which happens less than 0.1% of the time) can get admitted to a hospital, regardless of whether the doctor who was performing the abortion has admission privileges. IF the law makers were concerned about this, they would have passed a law making it clear that all hospitals must admit any patient in need of emergency care due to complications at another medical facility.

Also, it doesn't merely disenfranchise "a small subset of people", but rather millions of women. You are correct in that the new law focuses "on a technical issue" in that they manufactured a pointless technicality in order to make abortions defacto illegal for millions of women, without directly banning them, in order to skirt the Constitution.

And the laws themselves go further - requiring the doctors to affiliate with hospitals that are within a very narrowly defined geographic area, and then giving those hospitals (the boundaries were carefully drawn to only include private religious hospitals) the right to deny the affiliate for religious reasons. I will have to search for the links to the articles, but in one case I read about, the doctor already had admitting privileges at a hospital, but the municipality drew the boundary around his clinic to ensure that hospital didn't count for purposes of the law.

Yes, and this is just one of the invented technicalities. The requirement of a 3 day waiting period after initial consultation with the abortion doctor means that not only must millions of women travel several hundred miles, but they must either make 2 round trips or stay there for 4 days.

Another tactic is changing the building standards of clinics to force them out of business. Texas changed the law to require abortion clinics to have the same specs as a Surgical Center, including that every hallways be wide enough so that two hospital gurneys can easily pass each other (even though this is never neccessary in an abortion clinic). This isn't even a possible modification for the buildings where many clinics were located and prohibitively expensive even if possible. Many clinics closed as a direct result of this.

Then there are laws requiring an Ultra-sound immediately before the abortion. There is zero medical justification for it. It is designed to increase the cost of abortions, and to try and frighten and guilt to women out of the procedure.
 
You are right that any exemption contradicts the presumption of a full and equal personhood status for the fetus.

However, the anti-choicers could argue that the fetus is fully human with legal rights that prevent their killing except in extreme circumstances...

It could be argued that a fetus should be a notch below a post-birth child, and also be protected from actions (or neglect) that harms them, but if the mother being prevented from killing would likely cause severe harm to her physically or psychologically, then she would be allowed to terminate it. Note this logic could not apply to born kids because even if caring for them harms the mother, their is always the third option with them of given them to the State or someone else to care for.

Except they really can't in the case of abortions and exceptions.

It is against the law to kill people, but we do make exceptions in some situations of self-defense (and in war).

It is against the law to kill something that is legally recognized as "a person", which is a purely invented political concept and not a scientific one.
Creating another category of akin to a "proto-person" is no more arbitrary or intellectually suspect that using the vaginal passage as the boundary that defines a person versus a non-person (which is what pro-choicers, including myself, do). Just like we decide to grant rights to persons that non-persons have, "proto-persons" can be assigned rights that approach but do not reach those of full "persons".
Like I said, children already are a third category of personhood given full right-to-life and protection from most clear harms, etc.. but lacking full rights of movement and self-determination, and even rights against what would be assault against and adult. Oh, and fetuses are already a form of proto-person under the law. All laws that regulate what a pregnant women can ingest or treat harm to a fetus by another person as any kind of crime beyond harming the mother, presume some proto-person legal status of the fetus.
So, banning abortions except under some circumstances merely requires expanding the rights already given to these proto-persons to be almost like children, but with specified exceptions.

However, in the case of self-defense, the person you are allowed to kill is the person intending to do you harm, not some innocent bystander. So for the abortion exception in the case of rape or incest to be logically or ethically valid, these conservatives are taking the position that the fetus is harmful to the woman, and therefore she has the right to abort it.

If, on the other hand, it is permissible to "kill" the fetus if the fetus is going to cause "severe harm to her physically or psychologically", then that exception cannot logically or ethically be restricted to just rape/incest.

I was assuming that rape/incest would be added to a "life of the mother" exemption. Most people willing to give the former are already willing to give the latter exemption.
Legislators rarely fully defer to science to make determinations of objective threat or harm (though they should). Also, many laws have notions of "harm" that are purely subjective in their thresholds. They could simply specify rape and incest as the only things deemed to meet a subjective threshold of psychological harm. Hate-crimes make arbitrary and unscientific distinctions that result in differential penalty. Existing laws on child abuse are rife with subjective and not very scientifically grounded assumptions on what meets a threshold of sufficient harm to be abuse. There are forms of contact that if deemed "sexual" are treated as far more "harmful" than non-sexual acts that are objectively more damaging. The law just arbitrarily declares that if it falls into a "sexual" category then it is treated more severely. They can do the same with rape/incest and declare these "worse" than any other reason because it means the potential harm to the mother was the result of a "sex crime", which by arbitrary fiat are declared the most heinous.

The bottom line is that the typical conservative's position on abortion is not ever logically or ethically consistent, which makes it invalid. But when they do express logically consistent views, the sheer horror of their position becomes crystal clear - as Trump demonstrated the other day.

I agree that the actual arguments they use are not consistent, but I disagree that they cannot be. It is a matter of the premises they start with. Granted, those premises may be arbitrary, absurd and unsupportable, but that is true of many laws. The premise that pershonhood rights are not all or nothing but graded is not only already in our laws but should be because it is intellectually defensible and pragmatically sensible. This allows them to grant an almost but less full right-to-life status to fetuses. Then they simply declare that pregnancy-related psychological harm caused by a "sex-crime" is worse and thus more deserving of exemption, because "sex-crimes". That wouldn't make it any less internally incoherent than countless laws supported by the right, the left, and the middle.
 
I can't understand the logic of it being legal for rape and incest but illegal otherwise. Either the unborn is viewed as our equal or isn't. If it is, then this would mean punishing an innocent for what somebody else did.

It makes perfect sense once you realize they're trying to punish sex rather than trying to protect the unborn.
 
Well, if MY choice was a back-alley surgery or an actual doctor while some random schmuck paying for the crimes of our Republican Leaders, i can only hope the guy the police harass will be a Republican.

Maybe i'd make sure to mention he was wearing a 'Trump! For America!' t-shirt during the assault?
Or a Cruz button on his rape-shirt?

I would just make sure my description of the "rapist" matched one of the Republican politicians voting to make abortion illegal.

Just describe Bill O'Reilly as accurately as you can. Maybe enough people will get the same idea that the police will take notice and open a file...
 
It is a great pity that American elections are leading the way in a huge retreat from serious politics (how we are to organise the economy and the political system) into 'cultural' or religious opinions about matters that concern only a minority, upon whose lives the uninformed mass wish to enforce their own prejudices.

I think that a woman's right to a safe and legal abortion when needed is a very serious issue.

So is the right not to be threatened by gun-toting cowboys, and many other things, like being treated free for illness. The problem with the 'States what people have taken for granted elsewhere has been prevented by the political stoppage radiating out from the foreign policy difference with the USSR, so that normal class politics have been hidden. It is impossible, for instance, to set up a proper health service, because that is 'socialism', and the prevention of the deliberate spreading of the means of mass murder can be presented by the NRA and such in terms of archaic Eighteenth Century 'liberty' suitable for land-owning slave masters. Trump is hugely exploiting this situation: when sensible answers are ruled out, hot air and blathering spite can thrive.
 
Man, I wish the Supreme Court would rule on the issue of abortion and just get this done with.
 
I can't understand the logic of it being legal for rape and incest but illegal otherwise. Either the unborn is viewed as our equal or isn't. If it is, then this would mean punishing an innocent for what somebody else did.

It is logically possible to be against abortion and not think the unborn is our "equal," if you mean to say moral agents deserving equal consideration.
 
I can't understand the logic of it being legal for rape and incest but illegal otherwise. Either the unborn is viewed as our equal or isn't. If it is, then this would mean punishing an innocent for what somebody else did.

It is logically possible to be against abortion and not think the unborn is our "equal," if you mean to say moral agents deserving equal consideration.

BTW: the concept for stating that the fetus is the equal of the mother is that up to a certain point, the fetus can't survive without the mother.
 
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