Male and female privileges acknowledgement thread

[Jimmy Higgins]

Men's clothing is sized pretty much proportionally and one size typically equals the same size with a different brand.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My male privilege. I don't have to endure the pain of childbirth. Which is a good thing because when it comes to doctors and hospitals I am the biggest coward of them all.

Nobody has to endure childbirth. I think privilege is more than men can have genetic offspring without enduring the pain of childbirth, and the time it takes and the effects to the body that women have to do to do so. And the parallel privilege is that women can create life from within their very selves.Men will never know what it feels like to have your children literally grow inside you. That's quite a connection to them and from one vantage point can be seen as quite an honour.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That short list of female privilege was a joke. I thought for awhile and the only privilege that I could think of as a woman is that I have a lot more emotional intelligence than most of the men I've known. Emotional intelligence is important for surviving, improving your life and getting along with other people. But, seriously, that list of female benefits was dumb. The only reason that women are doing better in certain fields is because men have dominated them for so long and women are finally having the opportunity to fill traditional male roles.

This seems to run against the spirit of the thread. A guy could respond that it is male privilege that men are more logical and less prone to hysterical mood swings.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

Maybe in Sweden. Not in Canada. In Canada if you interrupt women you are likely to get told you are a misogynist and mansplaining. I've never seen any such thing happen when women interrupt men.

 

[Angry Floof]

The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

Maybe in Sweden. Not in Canada. In Canada if you interrupt women you are likely to get told you are a misogynist and mansplaining. I've never seen any such thing happen when women interrupt men.

I'm curious. What do you actually know about how much women and men talk and interrupt each other?

Of course, everyone starts with their own perceptions, but what other information informs your opinions about men and women talking?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I did mention that it's something we're rarely notice. The only reason I did was because I was thinking about it.

I remember one woman I talked to and asked her about how she felt about a man who interrupted everything she said. They had the same rank. She hadn't noticed. People don't. It's so hardwired.

I encourage you to keep this in mind from now on. I bet you'll start noticing it. Once you keep it in mind it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Initially it was quite jarring. But now 20 years on, having worked in international teams, from all over.. It's everywhere.

I guess the only exception was Israeli teams where everybody interrupted everybody anyway. So it was hard to single out men. But Israeli women in mixed teams stopped. While Isaeli men didn't.

This isn't the only one. There's more quirks of gender. But this one is the easiest to spot IMHO.

WTF?????????

Did you not read the part where I noticed men talking or attempting to talk over women?

Of course you didn't. Why bother with something that contradicted your attitudes?

Another example of a man talking over a woman

You make my point for me. Nobody ever genders it when pointing out Toni talking over people who happen to be men here, when she ignores or mischaracterizes what they say etc. Given the same behaviour it gets gendered when done to her, and not when she does it. That's a female privilege, not a male privilege. And it isn't just her. It happens all over. It is a female privilege to point at the sexism against women while ignoring, engaging in, or laughing at sexism against men, and have society accept and even praise you for it.

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The first one in the list, about being able to interrupt women, dominate conversations and not being judged for it. I remember hearing that in the 90'ies. I took this knowledge with me when I started working. And when I became a manager. It's true. I even tested it.

Maybe in Sweden. Not in Canada. In Canada if you interrupt women you are likely to get told you are a misogynist and mansplaining. I've never seen any such thing happen when women interrupt men.

I'm curious. What do you actually know about how much women and men talk and interrupt each other?

Irrelevant to what I wrote. Why quote me? I don't know who does it more often. I do know that it gets gendered in one case and not in the other.

 

[Angry Floof]

Irrelevant to what I wrote. Why quote me? I don't know who does it more often. I do know when one does it it will get gendered, and when the other does it will not.

I'm just curious, though. You don't seem to know much about how much men and women talk or interrupt each other, yet you talk like you do.

Did you know there's research on this? Are you curious about it at all?

What luxury, dare I say privilege, that you can just blurt out whatever without actually knowing what you're talking about.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I'm just curious, though. You don't seem to know much about how much men and women talk or interrupt each other, yet you talk like you do.

I talk like I do? Where?

Did you know there's research on this? Are you curious about it at all?

I'm not, no. If I was to guess, I would guess that men do it more often. That's a tendency, not a privilege. Women can do it without it getting gendered. That's a privilege.

Women can actually call out sexism against women (even where it isn't) while ignoring or even engaging in sexism against men, and get praised for it. That's a privilege too.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'm just curious, though. You don't seem to know much about how much men and women talk or interrupt each other, yet you talk like you do.

I talk like I do? Where?

Did you know there's research on this? Are you curious about it at all?

I'm not, no. If I was to guess, I would guess that men do it more often. That's a tendency, not a privilege. Women can do it without it getting gendered. That's a privilege.

What research are you referring to here?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What research are you referring to here?

Reality. Have you ever observed a woman interrupt a man and people gasping and shouting at them for talking over a man, in a discussion that wasn't already gendered and where this wasn't done to demonstrate this very point? I'll bet you've seen them doing so when a man interrupts a woman, in many contexts where gender is irrelevant. You don't need to rig up any "research" to show this. Everybody has seen it many times first hand. It is as ubiquitous as the "you should never hit a woman" (but hitting men is ok) white knight mentality.

Both of these come from the cultural bias of seeing women as weak and in need of aid, and men as tough and invulnerable, which creates privileges for both men and women. Women are rarely taken seriously in any sort of physical competition for example (despite many of them outclassing many men), and women are often seen as emotionally weak whereas many are quite tough, and tougher than many men.

 

[Angry Floof]

What research are you referring to here?

Reality. Have you ever observed a woman interrupt a man and people gasping and shouting at them for talking over a man, in a discussion that wasn't already gendered and where this wasn't done to demonstrate this very point? I'll bet you've seen them doing so when a man interrupts a woman, in many contexts where gender is irrelevant. You don't need to rig up any "research" to show this. Everybody has seen it many times first hand. It is as ubiquitous as the "you should never hit a woman" (but hitting men is ok) white knight mentality.

Both of these come from the cultural bias of seeing women as weak and in need of aid, and men as tough and invulnerable, which creates privileges for both men and women. Women are rarely taken seriously in any sort of physical competition for example (despite many of them outclassing many men), and women are often seen as emotionally weak whereas many are quite tough, and tougher than many men.

Sure, I can think of specific instances. Is that what you think "reality" is? YOUR specific instances of experience and that's it? Your personal bubble is an accurate microcosm of the wider world?

So what besides your personal anecdotes do you draw from to make these conclusions?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So what besides your personal anecdotes do you draw from to make these conclusions?

Pretty much everyone else's. I am sure there are some redundant studies out there that will explain this to you if you want to search them out. I see no need to. And we just had a demonstration in this very thread. How often do you hear people complain about womansplaining? You yourself have accused people of mansplaing multiple times on this forum.

 

[Angry Floof]

So what besides your personal anecdotes do you draw from to make these conclusions?

Pretty much everyone else's. I am sure there are some redundant studies out there that will explain this to you if you want to search them out. I see no need to. And we just had a demonstration in this very thread. How often do you hear people complain about womansplaining? You yourself have accused people of mansplaing multiple times on this forum.

My privilege does not extend into talking to men like they're idiots without possible consequences that men don't encounter often enough for it to be a reflex to worry and question yourself before proceeding.

It may look like womansplaining here, but that's because you're not here in person to posture or intimidate or pose any real threat to me personally. I do NOT go around to every dyspeptic misogynist I see in real life and engage them in debates like this. That's not gonna happen. All this is here is a bit more of a level playing field without the immediate physical threat.

And even that depends on the other people in this community around us. I've been stalked, hacked, harassed, my life interfered with from behind the scenes by sociopathic little boys for over ten years. There is much less worry about that here for me in this TFT community. Whether it's rational to feel safer here than other sites or not, I do. That's just another choice I made just to engage you in this. I might not have made the same choice in some other forum or media.

Is this something you've ever had to think about? On the internet, I imagine you're wary and aware of pretty much the same things I am, whatever the specific gender imbalances there might be. So do you engage women in person the way you do here? Is that something you have to think about?

AAAND, one last thing. YES, I am womansplaining.

"Womansplaining" = "woman is talking."

Expect to be womansplained more and more in the future just in general. There is no need to fear womansplaining, JP. I trust you can take it like a man. If you have any complaints, I refer you to your privilege.

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Also, I will confront anyone in real life, face to face, under certain circumstances, but to engage them in a debate like this? No. For many reasons, actually.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

because you're not here in person to posture or intimidate or pose any real threat to me personally. I do NOT go around to every dyspeptic misogynist I see in real life and engage them in debates like this. That's not gonna happen. All this is here is a bit more of a level playing field without the immediate physical threat.

Do you seriously believe that I, a short Asian man and pacifist, will physically intimidate you if we spoke in person? I assure you I would not. I more picture you shouting and shaking your fist at me as I quietly roll my eyes and walk away. It would be like that Hugh Mungus video.

Whether it's rational to feel safer here than other sites or not, I do.

Why wouldn't you? You are deep in your bubble here, surrounded by people who share your views, and you are also a "supermod", whatever that may do for your sense of security and authority.

I am the one in this conversation speaking truth to power. Not you. Let that sink in.

So do you engage women in person the way you do here? Is that something you have to think about?

For the most part yes, but I honestly don't meet such hostile women as you present yourself to be on here, so some of what I write doesn't have to be said.

Also, I will confront anyone in real life, face to face, under certain circumstances, but to engage them in a debate like this? No. For many reasons, actually.

You really think this is debate? No, this is clearly more like therapy for you.

As you just explained, you are afraid to address the misogynists who intimidate you in real life, so you project the worst of all they say and do onto me, so you can vent and lash out in your safe space where you have control. Glad to do this service for you.

 

[Angry Floof]

Do you seriously believe that I, a short Asian man and pacifist, will physically intimidate you if we spoke in person?

There you go. You cannot begin to approach this in any other way but it being about you personally.

Thank you for that demonstration. My post will still there in case you want to review it later from a different perspective.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

because you're not here in person to posture or intimidate or pose any real threat to me personally.

Do you seriously believe that I, a short Asian man and pacifist, will physically intimidate you if we spoke in person?

There you go. You cannot begin to approach this in any other way but it being about you personally.

I wonder why I did that. Maybe it is because you said "you"? You were talking about somebody else?

 

[Angry Floof]

There you go. You cannot begin to approach this in any other way but it being about you personally.

I wonder why I did that. Maybe it is because you said "you"? You were talking about somebody else?

I was using us as examples to explain why it's easier to talk to you and any men as disrespectfully as I please over the internet. If I don't know you, I would probably not want to be in your presence if you're agitated in any way, and even if you're not, most likely. Nothing personal. I would not engage you or any other man I did not know very well personally in an argument on this topic in real life. There's high risk and low benefit. There's no benefit to it. The benefit of doing it here is that there are others reading. No one expects you to change your mind, but others witnessing might not be so attached to their views of women and be able to change their minds.

So do you engage women in person the way you do here? Is that something you have to think about?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am a privileged overweight male in that i am more likely to receive medical care from strangers.
No one's afraid to touch my chest if CPR is necessary.
If in a crash, a lot more of my clothing will be removed to search for any unnoticed wounds.

I do agree you're more likely to receive medical care, but if anything I would think the woman would be more likely to receive CPR--they're on average smaller, it's easier to do. A woman people would be more hesitant at doing the checking that would lead to the decision to do CPR, though.

I don't understand about clothing. An injury severe enough to need field treatment is going to be obvious due to bleeding. You don't need to violate anyone's modesty to discover it. If a layer of clothing hides the injury it can wait for the ER.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The privilege I am most starkly aware of is my first world privilege with my Canadian citizenship. Had my parents not moved here I would have had a very different life and I have seen it first hand. I don't think many living in the west truly appreciate it, especially those who were born in Canada or the USA and have not travelled.

Also with my Canadian citizenship comes universal single payer health care. That's quite a privilege.

Yup, that's the real privilege most of us have--passports from western nations. I definitely agree about most people not appreciating it. My real example about poverty: Kampala, Uganda, 1982. We (and a lot of other groups) were staying in a campground. While the city was ok by day, night was another matter--there was gunfire all night long, at one point I heard what I think was a fairly heavy rocket (sounded like a bigger, deeper version of the model rockets I launched), although I didn't hear it go boom. The government really wanted the tourist dollars, they provided security for the campground at night.

One night a woman slipped into our camp. All our attempts to find a language in common (there were 15 in our group, I know we had a German speaker and I'm pretty sure French and Spanish were also represented, beyond that I don't know) failed so all we have is our best guess as to the situation--and that guess is that she was driven to do so by the cold, she was after the warmth of our campfire. As it was chilly and she was completely naked warmth would have been something rather important to her. It was obvious she was trying to be as inoffensive as possible as there is no question that any of us could have summoned one of the guards with ease. We did not think she was crazy.

And if you want to call that a one-off outlier, Calcutta: The Hindus regard cows as sacred, there were lots of them wandering around the city. No piles of crap, though--there were always kids around with scoops who would very quickly scoop up the shit. Not for sanitary reasons, but to take "home" (not that they actually had a roof or anything) to be dried and used to cook dinner.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When I was a very young woman, there was one guy in a group that I volunteered with. He was older, fairly good looking but not the best looking guy in the group. He was smart, knew what he was talking about and was very, very quiet. He was an exceptional leader who was admired and respected by all. He did not dominate any conversation and in fact he was extremely good at getting others, everyone to speak up, to say their peace. Every single woman adored him and would have gladly gone to bed with him at the slightest invitation. We didn't think him 'weak' or 'less of a man' but very, very sexy. And that was before we knew he played guitar and sang a bit.

Seconded. The best boss I have ever had is a very quiet type. Do your job and most of the people under him would rarely need to talk to him at all. He's just there in the background making the system work and looking for ways to make it work better.