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Male flasher confronted in LA Spa

Politesse

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I find myself constantly flabbergasted at the willingness of males to discount and ignore threats to the safety, dignity, and privacy of females. Seriously. Merager has a lengthy criminal history going back a decade, including several prosecutions for indecent exposure. So far as I can tell, Merager hasn't been engaged in any kind of transition whatsoever.

So I'll toss out the obvious question:
If a cisgender male goes into the female-only section of a nude spa and exposes his genitals, is it indecent exposure?

If a cisgender male goes into a female-only section and ostentatiously, intentionally, exposes their genitals to others beyond what is necessary to use the facility, he would be subject to a potential charge of indecent exposure. But so too would be a cisgender female who did the same thing. Your personal opinion about what you think might be someone's birth assignation of gender might be cannot be the criterion that defines indecent exposure, and indeed it is not. It is not indecent to simply exist, or to use public facilities for their intended purpose.

I note that transgender laws of the kind you usually support would actually require a person with a penis to use the female locker room if they were assigned male at birth but are now post-transition, since trans people who use a room not matching their birth certificate are subject to formal legal persecution in states that have such laws (in which category, thankfully, California does not yet belong). So, what's the deal here anyway? Aren't penises in female locker rooms a natural outcome of strictly legislating who can use which bathroom on the basis of birth assignment, in a world where post-natal physical transformation of apparent sex is common?

Lol, "the kind I usually support"? WTF are you on about? Do you actually even know my position, or are you just making whatever assumptions allow you to stick me into a nice neat box where you can condescend to your heart's content from up there on your high horse?

You say this as though this were the first time we've discussed trans rights on this forum.

Are you saying, here, that you now oppose legislative attempts to police who can use which bathroom, locker areas, and so forth on the basis of their birth assignation? What you would call their "biological sex"?
 

Loren Pechtel

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I find myself constantly flabbergasted at the willingness of males to discount and ignore threats to the safety, dignity, and privacy of females. Seriously. Merager has a lengthy criminal history going back a decade, including several prosecutions for indecent exposure. So far as I can tell, Merager hasn't been engaged in any kind of transition whatsoever.

So I'll toss out the obvious question:
If a cisgender male goes into the female-only section of a nude spa and exposes his genitals, is it indecent exposure?

We have no evidence one way or the other at this point.

Simple test: Look at their closet.

If it's full of female clothes this is a nothing. If it's full of male clothes this is a form of flashing and should be prosecuted. (I won't say "indecent exposure" because I don't believe the concept should exist. There's nothing wrong with the body.)

So... "woman" is defined by how well a person conforms to fashion trends?

Does that make me a "man" because I like boots and loafers, trousers, button-up shirts, and I don't shave my legs and armpits? Oh hey, I'm also good at math, I *must* be a man!!!!

Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.
 

Emily Lake

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Lol, "the kind I usually support"? WTF are you on about? Do you actually even know my position, or are you just making whatever assumptions allow you to stick me into a nice neat box where you can condescend to your heart's content from up there on your high horse?

You say this as though this were the first time we've discussed trans rights on this forum.

Are you saying, here, that you now oppose legislative attempts to police who can use which bathroom, locker areas, and so forth on the basis of their birth assignation? What you would call their "biological sex"?

I t may come as a surprise to you, but given that I have a fully functional brain, I am capable of holding nuanced positions on this issue, depending on the situation and the level of risk that arises in those situations. Public restrooms aren't the same as locker rooms, which aren't the same as prisons. None of that should require me to pretend that sex isn't real or that sex doesn't have a material impact in some areas of life. I shouldn't be expected to deny reality and dismiss science to prove my purity to you.
 

Emily Lake

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Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.

Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.

Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?

High heels. Only women are crazy enough to wear them. Why?! The fuck I know. I’ve never looked at women’s footwear. Most guys don’t. Corset. Yeah, that is another thing. Bra. Pretty feminine. Hard to wear without gear.

Masculine clothing? Probably a derby, or do hats not count?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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For me it would depend on whether they were being obnoxious about it, like those guys in men's locker rooms who practically shove their junk in your face while you're sitting there trying to tie your shoes. But that lady was being just a teeny tad dramatic. "That's traumatizing to see that," really?

But I would agree that trans persons and locker rooms pose a more legitimate issue than with bathrooms.

Is it? Why is a guy not allowed in a woman’s locker room, but a lesbian is? Is it merely the gear?

Also, you may be in the wrong place if guys are shoving their junk in your face. :D
 

Politesse

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Lol, "the kind I usually support"? WTF are you on about? Do you actually even know my position, or are you just making whatever assumptions allow you to stick me into a nice neat box where you can condescend to your heart's content from up there on your high horse?

You say this as though this were the first time we've discussed trans rights on this forum.

Are you saying, here, that you now oppose legislative attempts to police who can use which bathroom, locker areas, and so forth on the basis of their birth assignation? What you would call their "biological sex"?

I t may come as a surprise to you, but given that I have a fully functional brain, I am capable of holding nuanced positions on this issue, depending on the situation and the level of risk that arises in those situations. Public restrooms aren't the same as locker rooms, which aren't the same as prisons. None of that should require me to pretend that sex isn't real or that sex doesn't have a material impact in some areas of life. I shouldn't be expected to deny reality and dismiss science to prove my purity to you.

That wasn't a very specific answer. You can't complain about misunderstood positions if you refuse to do more than imply what your positions on particular issues might be.

Lay it out plainly. What should be the legal standard for who should be allowed or compelled to use a given changing facility, and how should it be enforced?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I t may come as a surprise to you, but given that I have a fully functional brain, I am capable of holding nuanced positions on this issue, depending on the situation and the level of risk that arises in those situations.
Holding nuanced positions, yes. Being capable of expressing what they are, you don't seem as capable.
 

Emily Lake

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Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.

Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?

High heels. Only women are crazy enough to wear them. Why?! The fuck I know. I’ve never looked at women’s footwear. Most guys don’t. Corset. Yeah, that is another thing. Bra. Pretty feminine. Hard to wear without gear.

Masculine clothing? Probably a derby, or do hats not count?

So... fashion then.
 

Emily Lake

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For me it would depend on whether they were being obnoxious about it, like those guys in men's locker rooms who practically shove their junk in your face while you're sitting there trying to tie your shoes. But that lady was being just a teeny tad dramatic. "That's traumatizing to see that," really?

But I would agree that trans persons and locker rooms pose a more legitimate issue than with bathrooms.

Is it? Why is a guy not allowed in a woman’s locker room, but a lesbian is? Is it merely the gear?

Also, you may be in the wrong place if guys are shoving their junk in your face. :D

It is absolutely the gear. A post-op transwoman would likely not get any opposition. Post-op transwomen have been in our locker rooms for quite some time, even though they're rare. It's the current crop of transgender identified males who are non-HRT, non-OP and 100% look like males who feel entitled to parade their junk around in front of women and girls that are a problem.
 

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Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.

Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?

High heels. Only women are crazy enough to wear them. Why?! The fuck I know. I’ve never looked at women’s footwear. Most guys don’t. Corset. Yeah, that is another thing. Bra. Pretty feminine. Hard to wear without gear.

Yes, of course it's the gear.

Masculine clothing? Probably a derby, or do hats not count?

Some guys need to shift it into neutral.
 

Emily Lake

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That wasn't a very specific answer. You can't complain about misunderstood positions if you refuse to do more than imply what your positions on particular issues might be.
I can, however, complain about ASSUMED positions that assign malice or hatred to me for no good fucking reason at all.

Lay it out plainly. What should be the legal standard for who should be allowed or compelled to use a given changing facility, and how should it be enforced?

Public Bathrooms and Dressing Rooms in stores: Use whatever you want, but respect other people's privacy and dignity. Enforced by the store management when it comes to expected comportment, and by law enforcement for criminal violations like peeping and flashing and other inappropriate behavior.

Primary & Secondary Public School locker rooms, showers, and bathrooms: Segregated on the basis of sex. Enforced by school administration. I *might* consider some extremely few exceptions depending on very specific criteria.

Publicly accessible and Post-Secondary school locker rooms and showers: Use whatever other people are going to assume you are, based on what they will see. If you are a pre-op, post-HRT transwoman who passes even relatively well, and you keep your genitals out of view, chances are nobody is going to notice or care. If you are a pre=op, post-HRT transman, keep your boobs covered. It's a common sense approach. Enforcement by the other people using the facilities, in that if you are obviously not passing or are not keeping your other-sex genitals covered, they can ask you to leave and expect it to be honored with assistance from the management. I would expect such facilities to provide a small mixed-sex or family room for people who fall somewhere in the middle, or for actual mixed sex families. Again, law enforcement when inappropriate criminal behavior warrants.

Domestic Violence and Rape Shelters: General expectation would be segregated on the basis of sex, with allowance for post-op trans people. I also support the creation of more mixed-sex, trans-friendly, and male-focused shelters as well, because they're in horribly short supply. I'd be perfectly happy with the same facility having multiple wings with different criteria, so long as there is an area that is sex-segregated (again, with allowance for post-op people). I'm perfectly happy to allow the shelter operators to make case-by-case exceptions to those general expectations if the circumstances warrant it. What I don't want is for female victims to have no access to a male-free space.

Prisons: Strictly sex-segregated with allowance for post-op trans people. Keep the genitals separated. I fully support separate trans-gender wings, and I'd even consider optional mixed-sex wings. What I don't want is a situation in which females are forced to share housing and intimate accommodations with a male against their will, and vice-versa.


I have other views when it comes to other kinds of situations, like political representation, honors, scholarships, etc. Most of those are broadly based around the view that a person born and raised male should not be considered a representative for the experiences and views of people born and raised female. Those criteria are a bit less strict, and are open to discussion. For the most part, I consider those to be general expectations but allow for some exceptions when it makes sense.

Some of my views on those honors are admittedly biased. For example, I absolutely object to Torey Peters being considered for the Women's Literary prize. Partly because Torey is male... but also because the content of their books are so offensively and disturbingly misogynistic and degrading. Same concept for Andrea Long Chu - I refuse to consider that person a "woman" in any way when it comes to the hateful, dehumanizing, objectifying crap that they write. Julia Serano is in the same boat.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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For me it would depend on whether they were being obnoxious about it, like those guys in men's locker rooms who practically shove their junk in your face while you're sitting there trying to tie your shoes. But that lady was being just a teeny tad dramatic. "That's traumatizing to see that," really?

But I would agree that trans persons and locker rooms pose a more legitimate issue than with bathrooms.

Is it? Why is a guy not allowed in a woman’s locker room, but a lesbian is? Is it merely the gear?

Also, you may be in the wrong place if guys are shoving their junk in your face. :D

It is absolutely the gear. A post-op transwoman would likely not get any opposition. Post-op transwomen have been in our locker rooms for quite some time, even though they're rare. It's the current crop of transgender identified males who are non-HRT, non-OP and 100% look like males who feel entitled to parade their junk around in front of women and girls that are a problem.

So it is because you think they are parading it around (floats and ticker tape and all?) that they have to be in a room she finds uncomfortable?
 

Loren Pechtel

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Some garments are androgynous and say nothing about the wearer. Many garments are clearly feminine and will only be present in the closet of a transwoman or crossdresser. A few garments are explicitly masculine and will only be present in the closet of a transman or crossdresser. If you do not find garments of explicit gender the check yields no information. If you find feminine but not masculine it's pretty clear they are living as a woman.

This has nothing to do with fashion. Neither my wife nor I care about fashion, but you would have no problem figuring out whose closet is whose and you wouldn't need to cheat and look at sizes.

Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?

Entirely masculine: Tie.

Entirely feminine: Dress.

Basically masculine: Anything with pockets that would lie over the breasts. That just doesn't work very well on women.

Entirely feminine: Swim suit top.

Also, look at the direction of the closure.
 

Loren Pechtel

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High heels. Only women are crazy enough to wear them. Why?! The fuck I know. I’ve never looked at women’s footwear. Most guys don’t. Corset. Yeah, that is another thing. Bra. Pretty feminine. Hard to wear without gear.

Masculine clothing? Probably a derby, or do hats not count?

A bra is related to anatomy. I can see a pre-op transman wearing a sports bra to minimize the appearance of their breasts. I also omitted underware as I can picture a trans person wearing the garment matching their physiology.
 

Loren Pechtel

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For me it would depend on whether they were being obnoxious about it, like those guys in men's locker rooms who practically shove their junk in your face while you're sitting there trying to tie your shoes. But that lady was being just a teeny tad dramatic. "That's traumatizing to see that," really?

But I would agree that trans persons and locker rooms pose a more legitimate issue than with bathrooms.

Is it? Why is a guy not allowed in a woman’s locker room, but a lesbian is? Is it merely the gear?

Yeah, the whole issue of same-sex-only nudity in locker rooms doesn't hold up because it doesn't guarantee a lack of sexual interest. My impression is homosexuals/bisexuals are a lot more common than trans.

Also, you may be in the wrong place if guys are shoving their junk in your face. :D

Agreed. By the time you're getting to that level it should be illegal regardless of gender. That's a sex act on an unwilling participant.
 

Loren Pechtel

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For me it would depend on whether they were being obnoxious about it, like those guys in men's locker rooms who practically shove their junk in your face while you're sitting there trying to tie your shoes. But that lady was being just a teeny tad dramatic. "That's traumatizing to see that," really?

But I would agree that trans persons and locker rooms pose a more legitimate issue than with bathrooms.

Is it? Why is a guy not allowed in a woman’s locker room, but a lesbian is? Is it merely the gear?

Also, you may be in the wrong place if guys are shoving their junk in your face. :D

It is absolutely the gear. A post-op transwoman would likely not get any opposition. Post-op transwomen have been in our locker rooms for quite some time, even though they're rare. It's the current crop of transgender identified males who are non-HRT, non-OP and 100% look like males who feel entitled to parade their junk around in front of women and girls that are a problem.

Bottom surgery doesn't work too well, plenty of trans people only have top surgery.
 

Emily Lake

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So it is because you think they are parading it around (floats and ticker tape and all?) that they have to be in a room she finds uncomfortable?

More to the point: I do not think that male people are entitled to force women to see their genitalia if we don't want to. Nor are they entitled to look at our naked bodies without our consent.

Are you seriously fucking taking the side of the registered goddamned sex offender on this, Jimmy?
 

Emily Lake

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Which garments are explicitly masculine? Can you name some that are clearly feminine?

Entirely masculine: Tie.
5.How-does-women-wearing-ties-women-wearing-ties-outfit-idea.jpg

Entirely feminine: Dress.
55e69d0e-c94f-11e9-b4e3-f796e392de6b_image_hires_155421.jpg

Basically masculine: Anything with pockets that would lie over the breasts. That just doesn't work very well on women.
women-s-two-pocket-dress-shirt-in-white-black-or-gray-38.jpg

Entirely feminine: Swim suit top.
Mens Swim Tops

Also, look at the direction of the closure.
So... fashion then.
 

Emily Lake

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Yeah, the whole issue of same-sex-only nudity in locker rooms doesn't hold up because it doesn't guarantee a lack of sexual interest. My impression is homosexuals/bisexuals are a lot more common than trans.

It's not about sexual interest. It's about sexual aggression and it's about objectification.

Even a complete fiery raging lesbian isn't going to leer at other women in the locker room, even if she does find them attractive. She's not going to hide cameras so she can get voyeuristic pictures of other women then load them to pornhub. She's not going to physically intimidate another woman to express her interest in them.

I'm going to generalize here and just flat out call it: men do not understand how women interact, or how we feel, and they sure as hell don't understand how women feel around men. Men tend to view women as entities placed in the world for their own sexual gratification. Even when it's not outright ogling a pretty woman, or opining that if a woman leaves the house in a sexy outfit she must want every single man in the world to be looking at her - why else would she dress that way? Even your prior comment with respect to women wearing shirts with breast pockets betrays this - it has nothing to do with breast pockets being inherently somehow masculine as some magical part of their existence - it's because you as a man think they are unattractive on breasts. If I were to make a guess, I'd say they interfere with your ability to appreciate a woman's breasts - with no consideration at all for whether or not she wants you appreciating her body or not.

Add in that entitlement that men tend to have, that expectation what women will conform themselves to the desires, wants, and whims of men... and then throw the rates of sexual assault, rape, and general sex-related misbehavior that women have to deal with and yeah - at the end of the day, I do not want the penises of strangers to be anywhere near me when I'm naked and vulnerable.

And I FFS don't give a crap if some man's fee-fees get hurt because I define my own boundaries and insist upon my right to dignity and the right to refuse to consent to their wants.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So it is because you think they are parading it around (floats and ticker tape and all?) that they have to be in a room she finds uncomfortable?

More to the point: I do not think that male people are entitled to force women to see their genitalia if we don't want to. Nor are they entitled to look at our naked bodies without our consent.

Are you seriously fucking taking the side of the registered goddamned sex offender on this, Jimmy?

I thought youwere taking the sex offenders side. Jinxies!

What is a male people? Can a trans person with unwanted male genitals actually parade them around?

Also, is your whole reason to be in a women’s locker room to avoid seeing men’s genitals? I thought it was the other way around.
 
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