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Mass shooters aren't crazies

Loren Pechtel

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I'd like to think there's something fundamentally wrong with someone willing to gun down 50 people, and no part of their conscience stops them before they do that, but I think you might actually be right: the average person is actually just fucked, and when there's enough of them, and enough of them that are angry, shootings are an inevitable by-product.
 
Well, that all sounds pretty fucking crazy to me. Just because people feel that there are rationale behind their decisions doesn't mean that those decisions aren't therefore batshit insane.
 
Mass shooters aren't crazies
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...l-illness-often-fuel-mass-shooters/?tid=ss_fb

Rather, it's the result of extremist views + a feeling of being wronged.
Which raises the question, why aren't extremist views considered crazy? They're contagious; and the infectious memes are parasites, not symbionts.

From the link within your link:

"Stone maintains a database of more than 300 killers, most of them shooters of four or more people. He essentially breaks mental illness into two categories. In the first category are those with schizophrenia, delusions and other psychoses that separate them from reality and who are suffering from serious mental illness and could be helped with medical treatment. In the second are those with personality, antisocial or sociopathic disorders who may exhibit paranoia, callousness or a severe lack of empathy but know exactly what they are doing.

In a paper published last year, Stone found that just about 2 out of 10 mass killers were suffering from serious mental illness. The rest had personality or antisocial disorders or were disgruntled, jilted, humiliated or full of intense rage. They were unlikely to be identified or helped by the mental-health system, reformed or not."​

Cue the trope of the insane psychiatrist: Stone is being schizophrenic about whether personality, antisocial and sociopathic disorders count as mental illness. But the truth is simpler and uglier: the psychiatric profession has a habit of acting as if "mental illness" meant "that which we've figured out how to treat".

Rousseau is right: there's something fundamentally wrong with someone willing to gun down 50 people, at least when they're innocent bystanders chosen merely because the someone wanted people to die. The link says,

"What are they? Psychopathic. Angry. Revenge-seeking. Jilted. Antisocial, not delusional.

[Most mass shooters aren’t mentally ill. So why push better treatment as the answer?]"​

The notion that someone can be a "psychopath" and not be "mentally ill" is delusional. The proper question is [Most mass shooters don't have anything we know how to cure, so why push better treatment as the answer?]. The follow-up is "Why pretend they aren't crazy just because we decided not to treat them?". When a guy with a brain tumor gives up on chemotherapy and goes into hospice to die, that doesn't make us pay lip-service to the fiction that cancer isn't a disease.
 
I'd like to think there's something fundamentally wrong with someone willing to gun down 50 people, and no part of their conscience stops them before they do that, but I think you might actually be right: the average person is actually just fucked, and when there's enough of them, and enough of them that are angry, shootings are an inevitable by-product.

I wouldn't say the average person is fucked. These are people who see negative things, whether intentional or not, as much bigger than they really are.
 
Well, that all sounds pretty fucking crazy to me. Just because people feel that there are rationale behind their decisions doesn't mean that those decisions aren't therefore batshit insane.
It's a spectrum. There was a study that found out that people sense of fairness is more important to them than losses. I think people evolved to be irrational when it comes to sense of fairness and "to not take it anymore". In that sense mass shooters are pretty normal.

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I'd like to think there's something fundamentally wrong with someone willing to gun down 50 people, and no part of their conscience stops them before they do that, but I think you might actually be right: the average person is actually just fucked, and when there's enough of them, and enough of them that are angry, shootings are an inevitable by-product.

I wouldn't say the average person is fucked. These are people who see negative things, whether intentional or not, as much bigger than they really are.
Like H1-B problem which seems bigger than it actually is :)
 
It's a spectrum. There was a study that found out that people sense of fairness is more important to them than losses. I think people evolved to be irrational when it comes to sense of fairness and "to not take it anymore". In that sense mass shooters are pretty normal.
How does a "sense of fairness" decide to take its owner's unfair losses out on random strangers who didn't have anything to do with what happened to him? A normal sense of fairness might well make people want to not take it any more and shoot the individuals responsible for hurting them; but a sense that decides shooting fifty people in a mall is what's going to balance the accounts is a pretty abnormal sense of fairness.
 
It's a spectrum. There was a study that found out that people sense of fairness is more important to them than losses. I think people evolved to be irrational when it comes to sense of fairness and "to not take it anymore". In that sense mass shooters are pretty normal.
How does a "sense of fairness" decide to take its owner's unfair losses out on random strangers who didn't have anything to do with what happened to him? A normal sense of fairness might well make people want to not take it any more and shoot the individuals responsible for hurting them; but a sense that decides shooting fifty people in a mall is what's going to balance the accounts is a pretty abnormal sense of fairness.
If you can rationalize your problem from some specific people into society then random people are to blame.
 
Simply lumping all mass killings together or even all mass shootings together will inherently obscure any systematic trends because it averages over several completely different types of events, where the methods, psychology, and motives of the killings have little in common.

Define any concept broadly enough (and thus make it useless) and you will find little systematic variance in it. Just consider the extreme example of "There is no less STUFF happening now than in the past."

A person who mows down 20 strangers with the primary goal of mass murder is engaged in a completely different type of act than aperson who kills his wife and her lover in a jealous rage, or happens to kill two people during a robbery, or when 3 gang members shoot 2 rival gang members in a drive by. All of those events are treated as though they are identical events by all the analyses in the OP. Yet only the first event is what most people think "mass shootings" refer to, and is the only event where a largely indiscriminate "mass" of people are shot at for the purpose of killing them rather than in the context of another crime. Should OJ be analyzed as though his actions were the same as the Orlando shooter or the Newton, CT shooter?

When stricter (thus more meaningful and valid) criteria are used to categorize events as similar, trends emerge and show an increase in mass shootings over time.

Mother Jones used critieria related to the first type of incident, where those shot at were not specifically selected, it occured in a "public place" (didn't occur in a private residence), and at least 3 people were killed. There is a strong trend of more such events in the last decade. There are more in the last 5 years than prior 5 years, which in turn had more than the 5 years prior to that. In the last 10 years, 8 of them had 3 or more such events. In the 23 years before that, there were only 4 years with 3 or more such events.

bialik-flowers-king-san-bernadino-mass-shootings-3.png


The FBI data show similar increasing trends in "active shooter" situations, which uses criteria with have high overlap with the Mother Jones criteria and include Newton, Orlando, and San Bernadino, but would not include OJ simpson, most gang wars.


bialik-flowers-king-san-bernadino-mass-shootings-4.png



Note that the OP link implicitly shows a similar trend when it acknowledges that the number of deaths per event is increasing. That is because in real mass shootings of the type above there are more deaths than the majority of gang shootings or crimes of passion with more than one victim that the OP analyses wrongly categorize as "mass shootings" (which qualify in only the most technical but meaningless sense of the term).
 
It's a spectrum. There was a study that found out that people sense of fairness is more important to them than losses. I think people evolved to be irrational when it comes to sense of fairness and "to not take it anymore". In that sense mass shooters are pretty normal.

No, there's a difference between "I'm going to act stupidly and irrationally in response to this unfairness" and "I'm going to fun down a roomful of people". It's a spectrum, to be sure, but there's a crazy end to that spectrum.
 
Simply lumping all mass killings together or even all mass shootings together will inherently obscure any systematic trends because it averages over several completely different types of events, where the methods, psychology, and motives of the killings have little in common.

Define any concept broadly enough (and thus make it useless) and you will find little systematic variance in it. Just consider the extreme example of "There is no less STUFF happening now than in the past."

A person who mows down 20 strangers with the primary goal of mass murder is engaged in a completely different type of act than aperson who kills his wife and her lover in a jealous rage, or happens to kill two people during a robbery, or when 3 gang members shoot 2 rival gang members in a drive by. All of those events are treated as though they are identical events by all the analyses in the OP. Yet only the first event is what most people think "mass shootings" refer to, and is the only event where a largely indiscriminate "mass" of people are shot at for the purpose of killing them rather than in the context of another crime. Should OJ be analyzed as though his actions were the same as the Orlando shooter or the Newton, CT shooter?

When stricter (thus more meaningful and valid) criteria are used to categorize events as similar, trends emerge and show an increase in mass shootings over time.

Mother Jones used critieria related to the first type of incident, where those shot at were not specifically selected, it occured in a "public place" (didn't occur in a private residence), and at least 3 people were killed. There is a strong trend of more such events in the last decade. There are more in the last 5 years than prior 5 years, which in turn had more than the 5 years prior to that. In the last 10 years, 8 of them had 3 or more such events. In the 23 years before that, there were only 4 years with 3 or more such events.

bialik-flowers-king-san-bernadino-mass-shootings-3.png


The FBI data show similar increasing trends in "active shooter" situations, which uses criteria with have high overlap with the Mother Jones criteria and include Newton, Orlando, and San Bernadino, but would not include OJ simpson, most gang wars.


bialik-flowers-king-san-bernadino-mass-shootings-4.png



Note that the OP link implicitly shows a similar trend when it acknowledges that the number of deaths per event is increasing. That is because in real mass shootings of the type above there are more deaths than the majority of gang shootings or crimes of passion with more than one victim that the OP analyses wrongly categorize as "mass shootings" (which qualify in only the most technical but meaningless sense of the term).

cr;jq - excellent, thank you
 

I disagree.

The Orlando shooter - despite being described as an "ISIS inspired" shooter - perfectly fits the pattern described in the artile:

Instead, massacre killers are typically marked by what are considered personality disorders: grandiosity, resentment, self-righteousness, a sense of entitlement. They become, says Dr. Knoll, " 'collectors of injustice' who nurture their wounded narcissism." To preserve their egos, they exaggerate past humiliations and externalize their anger, blaming others for their frustrations. They develop violent fantasies of heroic revenge against an uncaring world.

Whereas serial killers are driven by long-standing sadistic and sexual pleasure in inflicting pain, massacre killers usually have no prior history of violence. Instead, writes Eric W. Hickey, dean of the California School of Forensic Studies, in his 2009 book "Serial Murderers and Their Victims," massacre killers commit a single and final act in which violence becomes a "medium" to make a " 'final statement' in or about life." Fantasy, public expression and messaging are central to what motivates and defines massacre killings.

What these findings suggest is that mass shootings are a kind of theater. Their purpose is essentially terrorism—minus, in most cases, a political agenda. The public spectacle, the mass slaughter of mostly random victims, is meant to be seen as an attack against society itself. The typical consummation of the act in suicide denies the course of justice, giving the shooter ultimate and final control.

Many other perpetrators pay obsessive attention to previous massacres. There is evidence for a direct line of influence running through some of the most notorious shooters—from Columbine in 1999 to Virginia Tech in 2007 to Newtown in 2012—including their explicit references to previous massacres and calls to inspire future anti-heroes.
 
I like how the "extremely overvalued belief" is defined and the example of anorexia given. Are our politicians aware how different this is from the delusional and what we define as mental illness? Has "keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill" just become a political football? I cannot believe that they are not aware that these people reside on this side of sanity. These three articles paint an ugly picture of individuals consumed by a singular belief and the only way to get people to listen is to go bigger and bolder than the last.
The media turning away is our best course.
Why make a statement if no one is listening?
 
All kinds of delusional thinking is accepted and encouraged.

Religions of all kind encourage it.

And the US is one of the most fundamentalist nations on earth.

Millions upon millions actually believe these ancient fables are real.

Massive delusion is all around us.
 
It's a spectrum. There was a study that found out that people sense of fairness is more important to them than losses. I think people evolved to be irrational when it comes to sense of fairness and "to not take it anymore". In that sense mass shooters are pretty normal.

No, there's a difference between "I'm going to act stupidly and irrationally in response to this unfairness" and "I'm going to fun down a roomful of people". It's a spectrum, to be sure, but there's a crazy end to that spectrum.
Well. Road rages are surprisingly common, yet they are completely stupid and irrational. I think there is a reason for this.
 
No, there's a difference between "I'm going to act stupidly and irrationally in response to this unfairness" and "I'm going to fun down a roomful of people". It's a spectrum, to be sure, but there's a crazy end to that spectrum.
Well. Road rages are surprisingly common, yet they are completely stupid and irrational. I think there is a reason for this.

Yes, and while there's a continuum going from being slightly annoyed to giving someone the finger to yelling at the person to grabbing a gun from your glove compartment and gunning down four or five people in the area, there is a point on that continuum where you pass the line into the insane. Having causative factors which help lead into insane behavior doesn't make those behaviours less insane.
 

ISIS is after the publicity also. Make it so terrorists get very little news coverage and the benefit of such attacks will go way down.

- - - Updated - - -

All kinds of delusional thinking is accepted and encouraged.

Religions of all kind encourage it.

And the US is one of the most fundamentalist nations on earth.

Millions upon millions actually believe these ancient fables are real.

Massive delusion is all around us.

I suggest looking in a mirror for an example. You filter everything through your US-must-be-bad filter.
 
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