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More attempts to add more misfortune to bad fortune

Loren Pechtel

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

Many states will take away your professional license if you're not paying your student loans. In general it's a reasonable enforcement mechanism but it means those who legitimately fall behind (for example the woman in the article who couldn't work for some years for medical reasons) are screwed.

I still think student loan repayment should be capped based on some percent (or a sliding percent) of your income above the poverty line.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

Many states will take away your professional license if you're not paying your student loans. In general it's a reasonable enforcement mechanism but it means those who legitimately fall behind (for example the woman in the article who couldn't work for some years for medical reasons) are screwed.

I still think student loan repayment should be capped based on some percent (or a sliding percent) of your income above the poverty line.

Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

Many states will take away your professional license if you're not paying your student loans. In general it's a reasonable enforcement mechanism but it means those who legitimately fall behind (for example the woman in the article who couldn't work for some years for medical reasons) are screwed.

I still think student loan repayment should be capped based on some percent (or a sliding percent) of your income above the poverty line.

Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

Many states will take away your professional license if you're not paying your student loans. In general it's a reasonable enforcement mechanism but it means those who legitimately fall behind (for example the woman in the article who couldn't work for some years for medical reasons) are screwed.

I still think student loan repayment should be capped based on some percent (or a sliding percent) of your income above the poverty line.

Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.

The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
 
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Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.

The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
Education is worthless if it harms you financially? First, that is so pathetically sad. Second, how long does one wait before one knows whether one is financially worse off or are you under the myopic delusion that investment must pay off immediately?
 
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What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.

The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
Education is worthless if it harms you financially. First, that is so pathetically sad. Second, how long does one wait before one knows whether one is financially worse off or are you under the myopic delusion that investment must pay off immediately?

Universities have no monopoly on knowledge. Want to learn about 18th century French literature?; don't need a university for that. Math, science, literature, history, etc. Unless you're learning practical knowledge - like nursing, engineering, etc. - you're wasting time and money. Recall your time at university, if you learned anything at all it's because you spent the time to open the book and do it. That's why schools have "dead weeks." But you do not need an overpriced university that puts you into debt to do that. The notion that a university education is an investment may have been true a few decades ago, but now that anybody can go this isn't the case. Otherwise, there would be no student loan crisis.
 
Many people have already been abusing their student loans for decades.

While true, it's no excuse for universities to treat students like limitless ATM.
Is anybody forcing these people to attend?

Hey, I'm usually all about personal responsibility. But every part of our culture imposes on young people that they have to go university. And young people - having once been one myself - are stupid and gullible. Universities are taking advantage of young people, and it's harmful in the long term. Young people saddled with debt are less likely to invest, start business, etc. The government should not be aiding this swindle with our tax dollars. (I'm not against universities just of the view that they lost sight of their purpose in pursuit of $$$ and easy jobs.)
 
Universities have no monopoly on knowledge. Want to learn about 18th century French literature?; don't need a university for that. Math, science, literature, history, etc. Unless you're learning practical knowledge - like nursing, engineering, etc. - you're wasting time and money.
You can learn practical knowledge on your own - there is no monopoly on practical knowledge. I wouldn't want to have attended to by a nurse who learnt all on his/her own, but that is an issue of quality - something that is true for any profession or area.
Recall your time at university, if you learned anything at all it's because you spent the time to open the book and do it.
Wrong. I had some wonderful professors who showed me many different ways of thinking about the world. They challenged me to think about things I would probably not have thought about (at least at that age).

That's why schools have "dead weeks."
I'm not sure what you mean by "dead weeks" which explains why I think that comment is a non-sequitur. I
But you do not need an overpriced university that puts you into debt to do that. The notion that a university education is an investment may have been true a few decades ago, but now that anybody can go this isn't the case. Otherwise, there would be no student loan crisis.
Investment is simply postponing current consumption in the expectation/hopes of a future return, so your response does not make much sense to me, and it certainly did not answer my question, so I will repeat a truncated version of it "how long does one wait before one knows whether one is financially worse off after investing?"
 
Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.

The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.

I've been in my current position for about 14 years now. Over the course of that time, I have earned wages plus benefits in excess of $1Million.

I needed my university degree to get my job.

I think it was a worthwhile investment.

As far as being able to learn anything I would need to know via the internet: actually no true.

As far as the internet being an adequate source of information--much less guidance? Hardly. You run into all kinds of idiots who don't know what they are talking about and have a particular political agenda they want to sell...
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

Many states will take away your professional license if you're not paying your student loans. In general it's a reasonable enforcement mechanism but it means those who legitimately fall behind (for example the woman in the article who couldn't work for some years for medical reasons) are screwed.

I still think student loan repayment should be capped based on some percent (or a sliding percent) of your income above the poverty line.

Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

The worthless degrees usually don't have professional licenses.

This is about the modern trend of finding ways to punish without going through proper procedures.
 
The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
Learning on your own, you are restricted to your own biases. A good instructor and the class will take you out of your comfort zone, challenging you to think about a topic in ways you would not have were it just you and the book.
 
The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
Learning on your own, you are restricted to your own biases. A good instructor and the class will take you out of your comfort zone, challenging you to think about a topic in ways you would not have were it just you and the book.

A good textbook accomplishes pretty much the same thing.
 
Referring to the OP, what a stupid moronic thing to do!

In Australia, if memory serves correctly, while at uni you accumulated a HECS debt which are your course fees. You can then apply to the government for an allowance to support you while you study, provided you were either an adult or living away from home. When you finish your degree and get a job, you indicate on your Tax File Number Declaration that you have a HECS debt, and so an extra sum is taken out of each pay to pay it off. It’s not a lot extra, and only kicks in when you earn a certain amount.

If you don’t have steady work, but earn enough through the year, your tax refund goes towards it.

AFAIK, you cannot ‘fall behind’ on it, though it will accumulate interest at a marginal amount.

Aussies on here, please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I did when I went to uni in the 90’s.
 
The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it. A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.
Learning on your own, you are restricted to your own biases. A good instructor and the class will take you out of your comfort zone, challenging you to think about a topic in ways you would not have were it just you and the book.

A good textbook accomplishes pretty much the same thing.
And how does one know how to find a good textbook?
 
Well, that's insane and abusive. What, perhaps, we ought to do, is to hold the universities and other schools that charge so much for their worthless degrees accountable to assist in student loan repayment or forgo further public assistance / funding. Or maybe they could use their expansive endowments to lower tuition? Universities have become Club Med with all these well-paid sinecures for lazy do-nothings. Enough of that shit.

Also, revocation of a license should only occur in the event of falsity, abuse of license, or failure to pay license fee.

What degree to you believe to be worthless?

Universities are for education, not job training. None hold guns to students' head and force them to study...anything at all. Nor are universities controllers or even perfect predictors of marketplaces or job markets. As far as predicting the value of subjects or coursework? I remember my father being really upset that I was taking courses in French and Shakespeare in college. Yet those courses actually helped me land jobs at very critical points in my life. I did not take them to gain employment skills but because they interested me and I loved them. I was surprised to find I could actually land a job based on that coursework. Actually, I enjoyed those jobs more than the one I hold now which pays much more and which is in a field which I chose as a major because it also interests me and I love the field. Just not this job.

I actually work in a pretty technical field. At university, I gained a lot of background and theory and yes, some practical experience plus some research experience. My actual job? I was trained on the job, as is everyone who works in my work unit and actually all of the many thousands of employees who work for the same enterprise. Including those with Ph.D.s and M.D.s.

The degree is worthless is you'd have been financially better off never getting it.

Your warped notion of value is refuted by every basic economic theory. That would make 99.99% of products people pay for "worthless".
The value or worth of something is subjective. Most University degrees are not primarily designed to increase your net worth, except maybe a business degree. Some degrees primarily about becoming more knowledgeable no matter the economic benefit of doing so. And even most "career" oriented degrees are not about making more money, but about acquiring the minimal qualifications for a career you desire, which for most people is a decision not primarily driven by maximizing income.

Plus, the fact that a person doesn't land a job in that field they were trained in is not a reflection on whether the University gave them what they paid for, which is never a guarantee but merely an opportunity. The school cannot be responsible for market fluctuations that alter how many jobs in various fields are available, nor for other factors that determine success in the field of study, from the student's own innate abilities to the amount of effort the student puts into their education.

As for your "well-paid sinecures" comment, it is utterly baseless and factually wrong. Most University faculty work much harder than you likely ever have or will. On average, these Ph.Ds with 8-10 years college education work over 60 hours per week, with an average salary under $60k. That's equal to a job that pays $17 per hour with typical 1.5 overtime pay.

Pay of University profs is far lower than what people with their same degrees make in the private sector.
Graduate students that go into private industry have twice the starting salaries of those that become University professors. My wife and I both graduated students who entered private industry and immediately made higher salaries that either of us were making after 20 years in the field and tenured full professorships.

Perhaps if you paid attention during your education, you wouldn't make such obvious false statements.

A degree is just a piece of paper. The knowledge paid for at universities can be obtained practically for free elsewhere. Great, you've a got a degree in blah, blah, blah, drowning in debt. The guy who chose a skilled trade is debt free, driving a nice car, and working on the second remodel for his home. If a university is not about training, then there is little reason to pay money for what you get. Most anything can be self-taught. We've got these things called the internet, libraries, etc. But if there are institutions profiting off of this at public expense, those institutions ought to pay their fair share.

Your complete false nonsense in this post was self-taught off the internet, so obviously self-teaching and the internet are often not very good avenues for learning. The internet actually makes it far harder to be self-taught. There is many times more false information on it than accurate and telling the differences often requires that you already have a learned expertise in the area. Even online "courses" and lectures not tied to Universities are highly unreliable, and the more "free" they are, the less reliable they are. That's because they exist by the same economic model as for profit news media and click bait sites, which are incentivized to ignore standards of reason and accuracy in favor of hype and whatever gets the most views. Even with TED talks, the best ones are those given by respected academics, who are academics and earned their respect via the University and formal education system. And most of the books in the library and sound science papers on the internet only exist because of Universities.
 
Referring to the OP, what a stupid moronic thing to do!

In Australia, if memory serves correctly, while at uni you accumulated a HECS debt which are your course fees. You can then apply to the government for an allowance to support you while you study, provided you were either an adult or living away from home. When you finish your degree and get a job, you indicate on your Tax File Number Declaration that you have a HECS debt, and so an extra sum is taken out of each pay to pay it off. It’s not a lot extra, and only kicks in when you earn a certain amount.

If you don’t have steady work, but earn enough through the year, your tax refund goes towards it.

AFAIK, you cannot ‘fall behind’ on it, though it will accumulate interest at a marginal amount.

Aussies on here, please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I did when I went to uni in the 90’s.

Yeah, that's how I would like to see student loan repayment handled.

- - - Updated - - -

Learning on your own, you are restricted to your own biases. A good instructor and the class will take you out of your comfort zone, challenging you to think about a topic in ways you would not have were it just you and the book.

A good textbook accomplishes pretty much the same thing.
And how does one know how to find a good textbook?

Well, one way would be to go to the closest university, find the class that teaches what you want to learn, then go to the bookstore and see what books are being used for that class.
 
Well, one way would be to go to the closest university, find the class that teaches what you want to learn, then go to the bookstore and see what books are being used for that class.
And you feel that just reading the text book(s) would be sufficient? Most of my colleagues go way beyond the text book in terms of content and challenging the students.
 
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