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Moving 5% of GDP to labor's share . . . would it hurt the economy?

I've posted this before, but the percent of GDP to profit has not increased if you deduct depreciation in the capital stock and if you deduct the increase in the share going to housing (mortgage interest, rents). Don't forget that GDP does not take into account depreciation in the capital stock, so if you ignore any changes in this aspect, you are missing the bigger picture. Greater depreciation (from two factors: capital investment losing its value quicker or though having greater real value of capital investment per capita) means more must be reinvested just to maintain the country's capital stock.

Imagine the extreme scenario of an economy that consists of one factory worth $10M. GDP is $10M/year. It makes a huge difference to the actual wealth of that economy, and to the owners of the factory in that economy, and the ability to shift money around to other categories if that factory loses $1M in value per year vs $2M in value per year, given a constant level of GDP.

It is absolutely essential to take this into account when discussing this topic.

Here is the paper on the topic (net capital income is capital income minus depreciation):

In the postwar era, developed economies have experienced two substantial trends
in the net capital share of aggregate income: a rise during the last several decades,
which is well-known, and a fall of comparable magnitude that continued until the
1970s, which is less well-known. Overall, the net capital share has increased since
1948, but when disaggregated this increase comes entirely from the housing sector:
the contribution to net capital income from all other sectors has been zero or slightly
negative, as the fall and rise have offset each other.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/projects/bpea/spring-2015/2015a_rognlie.pdf

The question then becomes, who pays for your proposed wage increases? Real estate owners that have zero employees? How does that work?

I thought that we had put this question to bed a long time ago in the 28 year graduate student debunks Piketty thread.

The author of this study unfortunately goes to MIT where the economics department apparently doesn't teach even their graduate students about the Cambridge Capital Controversy, the CCC. This is somewhat understandable, the Cambridge that finally conceded the points was MIT's Solow and Samuelson to Sraffa and Robinson of Cambridge University in England.

The conversity hinges around the question of, what is capital? The neoclassical theory of capital and profit is that profits are the rewards for capital like wages are the rewards for labor. The neoclassical production function, the calculation of the production costs due to the capital investment, in a word the profits, is based on the marginal productivity of the capital. The part of the capital that is needed to produce the last item produced. It is obvious that the neoclassicalists are talking about physical capital, for example, the machinery that produces product, the trucks that transport it.

But this presents the first of many problems. Because the physical capital both appreciates and, at the same time, it also depreciates, its value, especially for the stockholders, is not defined by the initial investment required to buy and install the machinery, but by the profits that the machinery generates.

In other words you have circular relationship. The production function for profits from capital depends on the marginal productivity of the physical capital but the valuation of the physical capital depends in part on the value of the profits.

And, while it may not be obvious in this short discussion, it turns out that any attempt to define and to add together capital to find aggregate capital across the whole economy, for the capital share, or in this age of microfoundations, disaggregating capital to an individual, is not possible without an accepted value of the interest rate involved, which because it has to be a prior value, it has to be a financial factor not related to the physical capital at all.

If the actual interest rate is a financial variable, that is, it changes for financial reasons, the physical interpretation of a dollar-valued capital stock is close to meaningless.

What this means among many other things is that the richer countries didn't get that way because they employed more capital. That richer countries often use less capital and have more services and more labor in their export products than poorer countries, reference the “Leontief paradox.” Rather than through capital investment these countries became rich by learning, by improving technique, by installing infrastructure, through education, and by implementing thorough regulations, a competent IP system and social insurance. None of this has any necessary relation to the production function or to the physical concept of capital, and little to a measure of the financialization of wealth in stock markets.

What this means is that defining ”capital" is a term of art, not of science. Going back to your exhibit, the graduate student who is unaware of the CCC and its implications for his theory, the question has to be asked not only which capital, that is, book value, replacement value or market value, is he talking about that has to be depreciated to correct the income from profits, but which form of depreciation is to be applied? There are as many models of depreciation as there are of capital. There is straightline, mark to market, accelerated for tax purposes, and all favors of graduated ones beyond straightline. So the question is multiplied, it is which "capital" is considered and which depreciation is applied?

And if you apply this standard you have to go back to 1980 and apply the same reduction of profits to that year.

And not to mention that there are a lot of plants still running, producing product and profits, even though their entire physical plant has been depreciated to zero value. But obviously the plant is not worthless, and it may even be worth more than it cost originally.

And his conclusion raises questions beyond these. It is based on the statement that it is valid "only if we count housing" in the nation's capital counted as profit and loss. Housing certainly counts as wealth, but it is questionable if it should be counted as capital because it doesn't contribute to producing products, the real profit and the real purpose of the economy.

Housing is just one of the ways available for storing the money earned from corporate profits. When you suppress wages you discourage investment in businesses because you have reduced demand along with the wages. The money has to go somewhere, part of it certainly finds its way into expensive homes.

A thought experiment. We could all agree that our homes were worth $100,000 more than the current Zillow estimated value. What would be the impact on the economy? Would it be positive or negative? We can agree that wealth would increase for everyone who owns a home. But to cash in they have to sell their house and not buy another. Every house's price has also been inflated by $100,000. A house isn't an investment because you always need a place to live.

What we will have done is to increase the cost of housing for everyone, property taxes would increase, rents would have to go up, it would be harder for the young starting out to buy their first home, fewer homes would be built and the pressure on wages to increase to cover the increase in the cost of housing would be huge. Once again, a macroeconomic paradox, what is good for the individual is bad for the whole economy. In other words the increase in the costs of housing is a negative to the economy.

The important point isn't that there aren't any employees of increased housing valuation, but that increased valuation of housing doesn't produce anything and for the most part hurts the economy.

If there is capital gain taken from the sale of a house it's counted is the individual's capital gain, his income. This paper lumps it together with corporate capital and profits. We could just as easily define it as part of the labor share, resulting in an entirely different conclusion.

This is why most non-neoclassical economists concentrate on the flows of money in the economy and don't worry about accumulations. They look at profits as a flow and don't look at capital gains until they are realized, the house or plant is sold and we have the capital value defined, the selling price, money changes hands, the money flows.

Or when money is created, a loan, or taken out of storage in the bank or T-Bills and invested in a business. Once again, when the money changes hands, when it flows through the economy.

Money that is not moving through the economy is not money in any economic sense. When it is parked in a bank it's not money impacting the economy unless it's loaned out. Unrealized capital gains or losses aren't money either.

The entire reason behind the tortured idea of a regular production function is to prove that capital earns the profits as a legitimate cost of production and not just the surplus left over after accounting for all of the costs of production. There is no reason to have to prove this other than to inflate the importance of investment. To give it an exaggerated role in the economy. To turn the clock back to when capital was limited, when it was land suitable for agriculture, and the capital holders, the landowners, played an important role in the economy. Unfortunately for the wealthy who control financial capital today, capital is just money and the economy doesn't need the money that the wealthy hold because the modern economy can generate any amount of money that it needs.

The question of the OP is should we be increasing wages by decreasing profits, not capital. Wages and profits are flows. If wages go up, profits go down. If wages go down, profits go down. If wages go up and profits go down, the demand in the economy goes up. Reverse them and demand goes down and the available financial capital goes up. But investment in the productive economy goes down because of the diminished demand.

The answer to the question is an unqualified "yes." A reduced labor share limits effective demand. Without added demand there is no reason to invest. The economy is now demand lead. It is not limited by insufficient supply, investment. Supply doesn't create its own demand, not that it ever did. Demand creates supply, that is investment and investment creates savings, not the other way.

We have had record profits in the last eight years. But wages have been going down, deflating, while what little inflation that we have had was due to the increased profits, not to increased wages. Profits are currently dropping because we have hit the effective demand limit. Consumers are spending as much as they and their banks are willing to spend. Unemployment has stabilized but it is because the labor participation rate is historically low.
 
How about from the places the decrease went to and by reversing some policies that helped it happen?

How do you propose to reverse the rise in the share going to real estate?

The question you have to ask is where does the real rise in housing values come from? It doesn't come from a rise in the wages of the 90% of the population whose incomes have in some cases not even kept up with inflation. Housing doesn't produce anything to make a profit. Every house that is built or flipped after a renovation has to finally be bought by someone who makes their money some other way in the economy. The only ones in the economy who have had a rise in income above inflation who could fund a real rise in housing values are the top 10% of earners, the people who are enjoying the benefits of the increased corporate profits.

While we have a broad range of incomes earners who own their own homes in the US the distribution of home valuation between the various income levels reflects the income inequality in the US. This is only reasonable and to be expected since most people fund their homes from their incomes. As I showed in the long post to your capital income depreciation exhibit we don't want housing prices to escalate because it is a negative for the economy as a whole.
 
Nervous nellies, Axulus and Coloradoatheist will be back to you shortly with their "camel's nose in the tent" argument. They really worry a lot that the filthy rich remain filthy rich. I don't think either one of them are filthy rich. They have simply had a little too much free market cool-aide. That 5% would be a lot more than a 5% raise for the recipients and just a 5% drop in profits. It certainly is affordable. Their fear is that when the rabble gets 5% it will develop the same greedy hunger for money the 1% has. That may just take a little time to develop. Actually we need to add environmental restraints to our economy in addition to distributive justice. Environmental adjustment of our society will hurt the 1% a whole lot more than a mere 5% income adjustment. Unlike the distributive issue, the environmental one cannot be bullied out of existence of brought under control without massive changes to our economy.

You have two major arguments there. No. I said the problem might be with the implementation of to address the issue. The economy isn't better off we are just paying more for the same stuff. We could add three 0s to our currency and we are all a 1000 times richer right?

The economy has had real growth over the last thirty five years of movement conservative economic policies, that is Reaganomics. But there are a few problems, the growth in the economy has been ½% to 1% lower a year than under the previous regime of policies, business investment has been lower, the real increases in income have gone to just the top 10%, the amount of money that has gone to the wealthy supposedly for increased investment has been four times the amount of actual business investment, the surplus not used for business investment has gone to building repeated asset bubbles that destabilize the economy, and many of the Reaganomics methods of suppressing wages to increase profits have had long range negative repercussions like fighting poverty in China instead of in our own country, off shoring jobs, and destroying private defined benefit pensions.
 
Why not increase the GDP share to right-handers?

Why should poor unemployed people and independent contractors be punished with higher prices in order to provide an unearned subsidy to wage-earners collectively who are already paid more than the value of their labor?

No, rewarding anyone already overpaid with still higher unearned benefits at the expense of everyone else can only make the economy overall worse off. Rather, those who perform better or improve their service to the society are the class of people who should be rewarded, not an arbitrarily-selected class containing some whose performance is declining and who are becoming more parasitic.

Rewarding better performance is what pays off in net social gain, not rewarding a mob just because it's the largest class and the best at whining and feeling sorry for itself.
 
maybe you could make your next screed at least a little relevant to the op?

kthxbye
 
Can you actually give a real example of the Cambridge controversy, and not just a theoretical position on the a piece of paper?

It's also interesting that Reagan nearly devestated the housing market in many areas because of his tax changes. And the seperation of housing prices and incomes actually started in the 90s. If we want to control real estate income, we could remove the mortgage interest deduction and tax all home sale gains as ordinary income.

And as we argued, profits have been up in only the last few years, so it's the climate right now that's preventing companies from hiring, not demand.
 
Why should poor unemployed people and independent contractors be punished with higher prices in order to provide an unearned subsidy to wage-earners collectively who are already paid more than the value of their labor?
Lumpenproletariat reveals yet again his obsession with how workers are allegedly being overpaid.

Rewarding better performance is what pays off in net social gain,
Whatever counts as "better performance".

not rewarding a mob just because it's the largest class and the best at whining and feeling sorry for itself.
Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.
 
Can you actually give a real example of the Cambridge controversy, and not just a theoretical position on the a piece of paper?

It's also interesting that Reagan nearly devestated the housing market in many areas because of his tax changes. And the seperation of housing prices and incomes actually started in the 90s. If we want to control real estate income, we could remove the mortgage interest deduction and tax all home sale gains as ordinary income.

And as we argued, profits have been up in only the last few years, so it's the climate right now that's preventing companies from hiring, not demand.

Price of home for lower middle class owner and inflation in:
Dad Portland 1940 $2000 ($1);
me Los Angeles 1960 $11000 (2) 2.75 to 1;
me Los Angeles 1970 $17000 ($2.50) 3.4 to 1;
me Los Angeles 1980 $140,000 ($5.50) 12.5 to 1;
me Los Angeles 1990 $265,000 ($9) 15 to 1;
me Los Angeles 2000 $400,000 ($12) 16.7 to 1;
me Speederfundus 2010 $300,000(LA $600,000) ($15.5) 9.1 to 1(17.2 to 1);
me Speederfundus 2015 $600,000(LA $840,000) ($17) 18.3 to 1 (23.7 to 1).

What my data shows is home inflation averages about two times base inflation with it gaining steam from the '70s forward.

This looks quite similar to middle class incomes in reverse. That is middle class incomes were increasing until housing prices began to escalate when middle class incomes stalled. So if we bring housing back into line with about a 1.5 or so to one relation to base inflation, the middle class would probably still be gaining in income. On the other hand salaries came under pressure in the eighties which could also explain drop in middle class income.

Perhaps profit rather than product became the dominant factor in the economy during the seventies or eighties which could also explain both housing and income.

I like this last thought best because it suggests a plan for getting productivity back on track as well as a way to increase tax revenue for more infrastructure.
 
Some good insight into wage inequality:

Earnings inequality in the United States has increased rapidly over the last three decades, but little is known about the role of firms in this trend. For example, how much of the rise in earnings inequality can be attributed to rising dispersion between firms in the average wages they pay, and how much is due to rising wage dispersion among workers within firms? Similarly, how did rising inequality affect the wage earnings of different types of workers working for the same employer—men vs. women, young vs. old, new hires vs. senior employees, and so on? To address questions like these, we begin by constructing a matched employer-employee data set for the United States using administrative records. Covering all U.S. firms between 1978 to 2012, we show that virtually all of the rise in earnings dispersion between workers is accounted for by increasing dispersion in average wages paid by the employers of these individuals. In contrast, pay differences within employers have remained virtually unchanged, a finding that is robust across industries, geographical regions, and firm size groups. Furthermore, the wage gap between the most highly paid employees within these firms (CEOs and high level executives) and the average employee has increased only by a small amount, refuting oft-made claims that such widening gaps account for a large fraction of rising inequality in the population.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w21199

In other words, there are a few firms that are becoming extremely wealthy and profitable and able to pay their workers great wages (Apple, Google, Facebook, for example), and a bunch of other firms with marginal profitability that have not been able increase their their real wages.

If we look at firm productivity, we see growing inequality, with a a sliver of firms vastly exceeding the average growth rate:

Our research shows that the slow productivity growth of the “average” firm masks the fact that a small cadre of firms are experiencing robust gains. OECD analysis shows that the productivity of the most productive firms – those on the “global productivity frontier” in economic terms—grew steadily at an average 3.5% per year in the manufacturing sector, or double the speed of the average manufacturing firm over the same period. This gap was even more extreme in services. Private, non-financial service sector firms on the productivity frontier saw productivity growth of 5%, eclipsing the 0.3% average growth rate. Perhaps more importantly, the gap between the globally most productive firms and the rest has been increasing over time, especially in the services sector. Some firms clearly “get it” and others don’t, and the divide between the two groups is growing over time. - See more at: http://marginalrevolution.com/#sthash.XxzmJ5Au.dpuf

productivity.png


https://hbr.org/2015/08/productivity-is-soaring-at-top-firms-and-sluggish-everywhere-else

In other words, the firms that can afford the biggest increase in wages are already those firms that are paying their workers best. If you try to get those firms to increase their wages further, you'll make inequality even worse (the best paid workers in society get even more money). That also would do nothing to increase median real wages since these workers are already well above that. It is those workers at firms whose productivity is lagging behind whose wages aren't increasing. You try to get those firms to pay much more in wages and they'll have to close their doors.

Also note that when you have a phenomenon like this, you won't see the median wage go up even those average wages could be increasing quite a bit - it's only a sliver of firms that are reaping the profits from massive increases in productivity they are able to achieve, and the top workers at those firms are already reaping the rewards.
 
Can you actually give a real example of the Cambridge controversy, and not just a theoretical position on the a piece of paper?

It's also interesting that Reagan nearly devestated the housing market in many areas because of his tax changes. And the seperation of housing prices and incomes actually started in the 90s. If we want to control real estate income, we could remove the mortgage interest deduction and tax all home sale gains as ordinary income.

And as we argued, profits have been up in only the last few years, so it's the climate right now that's preventing companies from hiring, not demand.

Reagan devastated housing? I wasn't aware of that. I do know he devastated commercial real estate but I don't mind--the price was being propped up by tax dodges. With those dodges removed the price fell back to something more appropriate. The removal of a tax dodge will of course burn those that were taking advantage of it but I don't see that that's an adequate reason to maintain them.

As for controlling real estate income--it's only your primary residence that's tax free--and note that it isn't really that big a change from what came before where you could roll your gains into the next house and then take the one-time deduction when you downsized. In both cases the average person normally doesn't pay capital gains on their primary residence.

As for taxing capital gains as ordinary income--I'm all for it so long as you get to use constant dollars for your basis.
 
Can you actually give a real example of the Cambridge controversy, and not just a theoretical position on the a piece of paper?

It's also interesting that Reagan nearly devestated the housing market in many areas because of his tax changes. And the seperation of housing prices and incomes actually started in the 90s. If we want to control real estate income, we could remove the mortgage interest deduction and tax all home sale gains as ordinary income.

And as we argued, profits have been up in only the last few years, so it's the climate right now that's preventing companies from hiring, not demand.

Reagan devastated housing? I wasn't aware of that. I do know he devastated commercial real estate but I don't mind--the price was being propped up by tax dodges. With those dodges removed the price fell back to something more appropriate. The removal of a tax dodge will of course burn those that were taking advantage of it but I don't see that that's an adequate reason to maintain them.

As for controlling real estate income--it's only your primary residence that's tax free--and note that it isn't really that big a change from what came before where you could roll your gains into the next house and then take the one-time deduction when you downsized. In both cases the average person normally doesn't pay capital gains on their primary residence.

As for taxing capital gains as ordinary income--I'm all for it so long as you get to use constant dollars for your basis.

Several large markets were hurt by the tax law changes regarding the real estate/renter exemptions. But see we are treating it differently so if you have a choice of stocks that earn 5% or housing that earn 5% you put more money in housing because it has a better after tax return than stocks. One of the reasons houses soared, plus people gambling with it in the 2000s. Housing gains could be taxed at the same rate as normal capital gains.
 
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