Muhammed Ali has passed away

[marc]

We will never get anywhere regarding race relations unless we start treating black racists the same we do white racists. I.e. we need to shun them, not celebrate them.

Well I wouldn't celebrate you, but you're actually asking us to shun you?

Can we just ignore the "Westboro Baptist at a funeral" type derail in a remembrance thread?

 

[Derec]

Well I wouldn't celebrate you, but you're actually asking us to shun you?

Unlike Clay, I am not a racist. For example, I do not think black people are literally demons. Also, I have never advocated racial separation.

 

[Derec]

Can we just ignore the "Westboro Baptist at a funeral" type derail in a remembrance thread?

I have failed to see any sort of disclaimer to that effect in the OP. This is a discussion forum, not the funeral. And old dead people are usually out of pubic life for years before their death. What better time to discuss their life, good and bad, than when they die and are talked about again?

 

[Derec]

So you are obtuse then. You take the wrong side of literally every issue.

Or maybe it is you who does.

You might be able to rationalize your sense of moral superiority but you're going to offend literally every forward thinking person when you do this.

So in order to be a 'forward thinking person' according to rousseau, one not only has to have a positive opinion of MA, but also be "offended" if somebody expressed a negative opinion of him?
And why should MA be beyond criticism? Is it his skin color or his religion that should make him beyond any criticism according to the regressive left?

And in my experience you're objectively wrong a lot of the time anyway.

I may be, but then again so are you.

 

[rousseau]

Or maybe it is you who does.

You might be able to rationalize your sense of moral superiority but you're going to offend literally every forward thinking person when you do this.

So in order to be a 'forward thinking person' according to rousseau, one not only has to have a positive opinion of MA, but also be "offended" if somebody expressed a negative opinion of him?
And why should MA be beyond criticism? Is it his skin color or his religion that should make him beyond any criticism according to the regressive left?

And in my experience you're objectively wrong a lot of the time anyway.

I may be, but then again so are you.

If your arguments make people hate you, you should probably re-consider your opinion, or at least don't voice it.

 

[Derec]

[MA talking shit, failing basic arithmetic]

Wow! What a load of bullshit! - "I've been in jail for 400 years"
No, you have not Cassius. Oh, you mean your ancestors? As in slavery? That does not work either. First African slaves came to what became the US in 1619. Slavery was abolished in 1865. Between are only 246 years, not 400.
- "You my enemy"
As in America?
As to wanting freedom and justice, how did he not get that? I see no evidence he was treated any worse than anybody else who refused to register for the draft. Quite the opposite! And does he think he would have been treated better in Communist Vietnam?
Also, did the brain cells storing the word "are" completely check out by that time?

The tragic thing is that if a white person said that there would be no question that he or she is racist. But when a black person says it they automatically get a pass.

In the 60s/70s we took a decidedly wrong turn at Albuquerque regarding race relations and we have been on the wrong track ever since. The glaring double standards and "black people can't be racist" nonsense are among the fruits of this wrong turn.

- - - Updated - - -

If your arguments make people hate you, you should probably re-consider your opinion, or at least don't voice it.

Do you hate me?

And it's quite ironic that white people would hate somebody for disliking somebody who hates them just because of their skin color. Un-fucking-believable!

 

[laughing dog]

Wow! What a load of bullshit! - "I've been in jail for 400 years" ....

That was rhetoric not historical analysis. Your comments are pretty ironic, given the mountains of rhetorical crapola you have posted. this is pretty iro

The tragic thing is that if a white person said that there would be no question that he or she is racist. But when a black person says it they automatically get a pass. .....

Are you sure about your hobby horse?

 

[Derec]

This was rhetoric not historical analysis.

Call it what you want, it's still very wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

This was rhetoric not historical analysis.

Call it what you want, it's still very wrong.

Not as rhetoric or metaphors.

 

[Ford]

Call it what you want, it's still very wrong.

Not as rhetoric or metaphors.

Yeah, but if you understand it as rhetoric and a metaphor, you might be able to see where Ali was coming from, and that doesn't help when you're trying to craft a narrative of Ali as the bad guy.

When he spoke of being a slave for 400 years, the pugilist formerly known as Cassius Clay wasn't being literal or speaking of himself. He was speaking for the black man in general. Being an international sports sensation he was given a level of access to the media that someone who grew up black and poor in America was not usually afforded, so he used it to full advantage.

Faced with the truth that this country had indeed oppressed black men (and women, and children) for centuries, the racist (who insists he's no such thing) has to unpack the whole grim reality and attack it in parts in order to justify his disdain for Ali.

Was it exactly 400 years? No...therefore, to the racist, there was no oppression.

Did slavery last 400 years? Well if you count from the landing of the first colonists in the early 17th Century (ignoring the fact that slavery was a thing before then) and stop counting at the end of the Civil War, then it was only a mere 245 years, and that's not so bad, says the racist.

And the 100 years between the end of the Civil War and the passage of the Civil Rights Act? Why, that wasn't slavery at all! Says the racist, ignoring the century of institutional discrimination and Jim Crow.

That's how you get to the idea that Ali was a "black racist." Take his correct premise - that black people have been oppressed for centuries in this nation - systematically nit-pick it to the point where you can deny the obvious truth, and then take Ali's true statements out of context and claim he hates white people.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec,

Did you ever meet Ali?

I did. He used to come to the restaurant I worked at when I was in my early 20's... he always sat in my station when he was in. He was already clearly suffering from Parkinson's by that time, but he was a very nice man. Always polite and gentle and funny... not what I would expect out of a boxer.

You will never change your opinion, I know. Mostly, I think, because Ali was a black man, and well... it appears to me that the only black men you like are dead black men.

Mohammed Ali is dead. We know that makes you happy. So perhaps now you could just ignore this thread and leave the rest of us - including me who actually knew the man - in peace.

 

[Ford]

Did you ever meet Ali?

I did. He used to come to the restaurant I worked at when I was in my early 20's... he always sat in my station when he was in. He was already clearly suffering from Parkinson's by that time, but he was a very nice man. Always polite and gentle and funny... not what I would expect out of a boxer.

I never did, but living in Phoenix and being part of "the media" I know a lot of people who got to interact with him at fundraising events related to his charities. My Facebook feed was peppered with friends remarking on their time with the Champ. Like you said, polite, gentle, and funny.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

He was the greatest of his time. An athlete, not merely a fighter. I am sad for his family.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm starting to get the feeling that Derec is covertly trolling the forum at this point. No way someone can be that obtuse in their mid-thirties.

I think you have the right of it.

They say to only speak good things about the dead.
Mohammed Ali is dead? Good!

In addition to speaking against the grain in a memorial thread, and in addition to speaking against tradition by badmouthing someone in the memorial thread....

On top of all that, A PUN.

There is no limit to how low he will stoop in order to get attention.

 

[Derec]

Did you ever meet Ali?

Can't say I have.

I did. He used to come to the restaurant I worked at when I was in my early 20's...

When was that?

he always sat in my station when he was in. He was already clearly suffering from Parkinson's by that time, but he was a very nice man. Always polite and gentle and funny... not what I would expect out of a boxer.

As I admitted, I never met him. Certainly not in the latter stages of his life when he supposedly mellowed out. But in his earlier life, when he was in full command of his mental faculties (such as they were), he was quite racist. Calling white people devils, comparing us to venomous snakes, saying that god made races separate as an argument against racial mixing. That last one is something David Duke could have signed.

Mostly, I think, because Ali was a black man, and well... it appears to me that the only black men you like are dead black men.

Not because he was a black man, but because he was a radical and a racist. Again, black racists get a pass which pisses me off. People should be judged on same standards regardless of race.

Mohammed Ali is dead. We know that makes you happy. So perhaps now you could just ignore this thread and leave the rest of us - including me who actually knew the man - in peace.

This is a discussion board. The thread was not marked as a memorial only thread thus discussion should be assumed to be fair game. We can differ as to our opinions about the man but please don't insult me by saying that my negative views on him are because he was a black man. Being a black man does not necessitate him joining a racist, black supremacist organization such as NoI.

 

[Derec]

On top of all that, A PUN.

Unpardonable sin surely.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, but if you understand it as rhetoric and a metaphor, you might be able to see where Ali was coming from, and that doesn't help when you're trying to craft a narrative of Ali as the bad guy.

He's still a bad guy even if he were better in basic arithmetic.

When he spoke of being a slave for 400 years, the pugilist formerly known as Cassius Clay wasn't being literal or speaking of himself. He was speaking for the black man in general.

Again, that does not work as slavery in North America only existed between 1619 and 1865. Slavery in the Arab world existed much longer, but he would never admit that, seeing that he rejected Christianity because it was the "white man's religion" and adopted Islam.

Being an international sports sensation he was given a level of access to the media that someone who grew up black and poor in America was not usually afforded, so he used it to full advantage.

And boy did it work on self-hating whites on the left!

Faced with the truth that this country had indeed oppressed black men (and women, and children) for centuries, the racist (who insists he's no such thing) has to unpack the whole grim reality and attack it in parts in order to justify his disdain for Ali.

Nobody is denying that slavery existed and was bad. Just not 400 years of it in North America (Arab world is again a different thing which just underlines Ali's hypocrisy in adopting Islam). Nobody is denying that there was racial prejudice against blacks even long after slavery was abolished. But two wrongs do not make a right. Nobody is glorifying white racists of the period and black racists should not be glorified either.

Was it exactly 400 years? No...therefore, to the racist, there was no oppression.

The difference is not merely a rounding error; it's substantial.

Did slavery last 400 years? Well if you count from the landing of the first colonists in the early 17th Century (ignoring the fact that slavery was a thing before then) and stop counting at the end of the Civil War, then it was only a mere 245 years, and that's not so bad, says the racist.

Does one have to be a racist to recognize glaring errors? If Cassius Clay were right with his 400 years, slavery is not due to be abolished for another 3 years (1619+400=2019)! That's not a minor error.

And the 100 years between the end of the Civil War and the passage of the Civil Rights Act? Why, that wasn't slavery at all! Says the racist, ignoring the century of institutional discrimination and Jim Crow.

No, it was not slavery. Something can be bad without being as bad as slavery. And again, in the Arab world slavery continued. When Cassius Clay aka Mohammed Ali made his pilgrimage to Mekka (1972), Saudi Arabia had abolished slavery for only 10 years (1962).

That's how you get to the idea that Ali was a "black racist."

Calling white people racists and venomous snakes is a big hint. As is his rant against racial mixing. Not to mention him joining the rabidly racist Nation of Islam.

Take his correct premise - that black people have been oppressed for centuries in this nation - systematically nit-pick it to the point where you can deny the obvious truth, and then take Ali's true statements out of context and claim he hates white people.

One can be against black people being oppressed (I am against that too) without at the same time believing that white people were created by an ancient black scientist named Yakub. That being the official dogma of NoI.

 

[laughing dog]

On top of all that, A PUN.

Unpardonable sin surely.

Given it was a bad pun and in poor taste, pretty close to an unpardonable sin.

 

[Keith&Co.]

On top of all that, A PUN.

Unpardonable sin surely.

Just the topping on the lump of shit that's your contribution to the thread, Derec.

But, hey, at least everyone's talking about you.

 

[Thomas II]