- Joined
- Oct 22, 2002
- Messages
- 38,794
- Location
- Frozen in Michigan
- Gender
- Old Fart
- Basic Beliefs
- Don't be a dick.
Never understood why christians are so against abortions. Have they never read the bible?
In cultures where we track that thing, yes. In some cultures, the actual day of birth is not celebrated. The birthday is associated with the nearest Saint's Day, and they celebrate then.People tend to celebrate their birthdays on, well, there birthdays,
Well, yes. The opposite of arbitrary would be birth. There are things you can do to a fetus that you cannot do to a baby. Because they are on opposite sides of an event which includes significant changes to the individual. Umbilical, breath, the ability to piss on daddy...To say "arbitrary" has a connotation about it that seems to be of lesser value somehow.
There's no great physical significant change between the end of the band and the next day outside the band.You appear to recognize the target I'm aspiring to shoot for by speaking of bandwidth, yet there's no denying your point about there being no great significance between an actual date and some time just before or after it.
Humans like lines. That's why we celebrate birthdays so much. Yesterday you were too young to drink responsibly, today you have everything you need to do so.The usage of arbitrary that seems to allow both reason and lack of is what keep me reeling over it.
Why would they? People have been telling them what's IN the Bible since before they could read. They're all really sure they already know everything important in there.Never understood why christians are so against abortions. Have they never read the bible?
Why would they? People have been telling them what's IN the Bible since before they could read. They're all really sure they already know everything important in there.Never understood why christians are so against abortions. Have they never read the bible?
It's not me who loses.
Never understood why christians are so against abortions. Have they never read the bible?
My beliefs don't change with the zeitgeist
...unlike QLD politics
My beliefs don't change with the zeitgeist
...unlike QLD politics
Your zeitgeist tells you to worship an alien supernatural skycreature that allegedly killed every human on the planet, but you have a problem with women making a choice to terminate the existence of a zygote or an embryo in their own own bodies? Talk about fucked up priorities, and what religious belief does to some people.
My beliefs don't change with the zeitgeist
...unlike QLD politics
Your zeitgeist tells you to worship an alien supernatural skycreature that allegedly killed every human on the planet, but you have a problem with women making a choice to terminate the existence of a zygote or an embryo in their own own bodies? Talk about fucked up priorities, and what religious belief does to some people.
The idea that QLD politics is subject to frequent or whimsical changes is hilarious. Our state is infamous for its conservatism and backwardness.
The old joke is that during daylight saving in NSW, they have a sign at the border that says "Now entering Queensland - Please turn your watch back twenty years".
My beliefs don't change with the zeitgeist
...unlike QLD politics
Your zeitgeist tells you to worship an alien supernatural skycreature that allegedly killed every human on the planet, but you have a problem with women making a choice to terminate the existence of a zygote or an embryo in their own own bodies? Talk about fucked up priorities, and what religious belief does to some people.
The idea that QLD politics is subject to frequent or whimsical changes is hilarious. Our state is infamous for its conservatism and backwardness.
The old joke is that during daylight saving in NSW, they have a sign at the border that says "Now entering Queensland - Please turn your watch back twenty years".
"...When the bill was passed, dozens of people in the packed public gallery broke out into loud cheers and applause, with several women crying and hugging each other."
Men cheering that they can get women pregnant and avoid being fathers.
Women crying and hugging because men tell them to "get rid of it"
The idea that QLD politics is subject to frequent or whimsical changes is hilarious. Our state is infamous for its conservatism and backwardness.
The old joke is that during daylight saving in NSW, they have a sign at the border that says "Now entering Queensland - Please turn your watch back twenty years".
Yeah, I was a bit nonplussed about that statement as well. I don't associate Queensland with "dynamic". Last time I checked, you bastards don't even have to go to a mechanic every year to get your car's rego renewed! That's why I like going there on my holidays. Everything is on pause and everything is cheaper.
So no woman would ever get an abortion on her own initiative?"...When the bill was passed, dozens of people in the packed public gallery broke out into loud cheers and applause, with several women crying and hugging each other."
Men cheering that they can get women pregnant and avoid being fathers.
Women crying and hugging because men tell them to "get rid of it"
Yup. You can drive your car until it falls apart. Lots of people do.
It's an arbitrary line, like deciding when gray stops being black and starts being white.What magical event happens at 22 weeks that removes a QLD woman's right to have an abortion without getting someone's permission?
It's an arbitrary line, like deciding when gray stops being black and starts being white.What magical event happens at 22 weeks that removes a QLD woman's right to have an abortion without getting someone's permission?
On the late end of pregnancy, it would be when a fetus becomes able to survive outside the womb. But "preemies" often need a lot of care.
On the early end of pregnancy, it would be when an embryo starts looking like a tiny baby, thus becoming a fetus.
Visible Embryo Home Page has lots of nice pictures and descriptions of growth stages.
- 0 - 1d: Egg cell fertilized
- 1 - 3d: First divisions into a mass of cells
- 4d: Ball of cells that gets an outer layer and an inner layer
- 5 - 6d: This ball sticks to the womb lining
- 7 - 12d: The outer layer starts making the placenta, while the inner layer gets an inward dent. At that dent, it gets an additional layer that becomes the embryo and the amniotic sac. The rest of the layer becomes the yolk sac.0
- 13d: the embryo starts out as a disk, and it gets a "primitive streak" where cells move inward and through it. The embryo now has three layers: ectoderm (makes the skin and nervous system), mesoderm (makes the heart and muscles and urogenital system), and endoderm (makes the gut).
- 17 - 19d: embryo starts getting elongated and infolded with the endoderm on the inside.
- 19 - 21d: somites (muscle blocks) start to appear.
- 23 - 25d: embryo starts getting a baby-like shape, though still very undeveloped. Its heart has started beating, but its eyes are still forming, and it has a tail.
- 25 - 27d: embryo starts getting upper limb buds.
- 31 - 35d: eyes start taking shape, lower limb buds appear.
- 37 - 42d: brain takes shape.
- 51 - 53d: the embryo starts to move on its own, tail now gone.
- 56 - 60d: end of the embryonic period: fingers and toes formed, and bones are getting mineralized, though the eyes are still on the sides of the head
- 10w (70d): face has human appearance, and the fetus looks much like a baby, but the fetus has the size of the outermost segment of an adult thumb.
- 14w: external sex organs now clearly visible
- 20w: bone marrow starts making blood cells, testicles start descending
- 24w: sensory responses start: sight, hearing, touch.
- 26w: lungs become capable of breathing air
- 28w: brain surface starts getting folded
- 32w: immune system starts to develop
- 36w: lots of body fat
- 40w: ready to be born
Well, plainly put, they should. Most people are mostly right most of the time, and it is ridiculous to think that an idea or model that was produced when the species was more ignorant will somehow be more refined than one produced when the species was less ignorant. so while the rest of us get less ignorant over time, you will not. You will literally be left in the past. Notable examples of such include: slavery, flat earth theory, astrology, the fluid theory of disease (hooray leeches), etc.My beliefs don't change with the zeitgeist
...unlike QLD politics
But if it can live on its own, then that complicates the issue, because instead of abortion one could have premature birth.Although, those delineations shouldn't actually have much to do with when abortions are allowed. The question of whether it's an embryo, fetus, or human is largely irrelevant, but unfortunately pro-choicers sometimes get dragged into making that the issue.
The issue is that until "it" (by any name) is outside of the mother's body it is part of the mothers body, and therefore she must have final say in whether it remains part of her body and how she wants to remove it. Rights to control one's own body is the most fundamental of all human rights on which all others depend.
(me on embryonic and fetal development snipped for brevity)
But if it can live on its own, then that complicates the issue, because instead of abortion one could have premature birth.Although, those delineations shouldn't actually have much to do with when abortions are allowed. The question of whether it's an embryo, fetus, or human is largely irrelevant, but unfortunately pro-choicers sometimes get dragged into making that the issue.
The issue is that until "it" (by any name) is outside of the mother's body it is part of the mothers body, and therefore she must have final say in whether it remains part of her body and how she wants to remove it. Rights to control one's own body is the most fundamental of all human rights on which all others depend.