Neil DeGrasse Tyson accused of sexual misconduct (and rape)

[GenesisNemesis]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/arts/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-misconduct.html

In a lengthy Facebook post on Saturday, the well-known astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson disputed accounts that he had behaved inappropriately with three women, a day after the broadcasters of his show “Cosmos” said they were investigating his conduct.

“Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage,” he wrote. “Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant — a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public.”

On Friday, Fox Broadcasting and National Geographic, which air the popular science program “Cosmos,” said they would investigate the allegations, which were first reported on the website Patheos. On Saturday, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where Dr. Tyson directs the Hayden Planetarium, said it was looking into the accusations as well.

Wasn't sure where to put this.

 

[Underseer]

The allegations originally surfaced some time ago. There might even be another thread on this topic.

This video was from September and discusses a reporter talking to one of the accusers much earlier than that.

[YOUTUBE]hMi8hzXXHsM[/YOUTUBE]

I think T1J summed the whole thing up pretty well, except that I'm not as able as he is to separate the art from the artist. If it's something particularly egregious or I don't have confidence that the person actually changed, then I can't enjoy that person's art without thinking about whatever the awful thing is.

 

[Harry Bosch]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/arts/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-misconduct.html

In a lengthy Facebook post on Saturday, the well-known astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson disputed accounts that he had behaved inappropriately with three women, a day after the broadcasters of his show “Cosmos” said they were investigating his conduct.

“Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage,” he wrote. “Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant — a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public.”

On Friday, Fox Broadcasting and National Geographic, which air the popular science program “Cosmos,” said they would investigate the allegations, which were first reported on the website Patheos. On Saturday, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where Dr. Tyson directs the Hayden Planetarium, said it was looking into the accusations as well.

Wasn't sure where to put this.

That's very sad and shocking. He's absolutely one of the most eloquent and charismatic speakers for science in the world. If true, we're going to lose one of our most powerful advocates fighting end the world war on science.

 

[fast]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/arts/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-misconduct.html

In a lengthy Facebook post on Saturday, the well-known astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson disputed accounts that he had behaved inappropriately with three women, a day after the broadcasters of his show “Cosmos” said they were investigating his conduct.

“Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage,” he wrote. “Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant — a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public.”

On Friday, Fox Broadcasting and National Geographic, which air the popular science program “Cosmos,” said they would investigate the allegations, which were first reported on the website Patheos. On Saturday, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where Dr. Tyson directs the Hayden Planetarium, said it was looking into the accusations as well.

Wasn't sure where to put this.

That's very sad and shocking. He's absolutely one of the most eloquent and charismatic speakers for science in the world. If true, we're going to lose one of our most powerful advocates fighting end the world war on science.

Sad, yes.

Shocking, never.

Eloquent, definitely.

Charismatic, absolutely.

Going to lose, I think not. People can compartmentalize, or separate the art from the artist. I don’t wallow in the filth of people’s personal demons once the skeletons in their closets have been put on full display for the world to see. Lethal Weapon is still my favorite movie no matter what Mel Gibson may have done. I can still laugh at a Cosby joke. I can still admire Neil Tyson. Even you seem to have said some positive things about him. That doesn’t go away, and neither do the positive traits of serial killers.

I’ve seen the bad side of people, and when they put on their show to those not in the know, it’s only their lack of knowledge that keeps applause from being boos, yet some of us can still see the good that glows, no matter how darkened bad deeds overshadow them in the eyes of others.

 

[Axulus]

My take on this:

What was described in the two most recent incidents doesn't strike me to the level as needing to be made public or something that should derail his career. The 2009 incident sounds like a violation of personal space rather than any kind of sexual misconduct. NGT seems overly enthusiastic and friendly and he may inadvertently cross personal boundaries in his enthusiasm, kind of a personality thing that he needs to work on. The appropriate way to handle it is to tell him how you felt, why go public with it?

The second one seems to barely even reach the level of sexual harassment. If all of what happened is fully true, it is inappropriate, but at no point did he say anything demeaning to the woman (during the encounter) or demand sexual favors, or touch her inappropriately (the handshake thing, really?). This should also have remained an internal affair and dealt with by the production company, why does this need to be public?

Finally, the drugged rape accusation, while horrific if true, doesn't have any collaborating evidence. It is also old news, something that has been public for over eight years now and apparently not deemed credible enough as the accusation didn't really get any attention. It happened so long ago that NGT does not have any opportunity to present any kind of defense.

The comment thread here also seems to poke holes in her story. The symptoms she describes would not have happened with the drugs available in 1984 without being easily detectable from just one sip of the water she alleges was given to her:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosac...degrasse-tyson-accused-of-rape/#disqus_thread

 

[Underseer]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/arts/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-misconduct.html

In a lengthy Facebook post on Saturday, the well-known astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson disputed accounts that he had behaved inappropriately with three women, a day after the broadcasters of his show “Cosmos” said they were investigating his conduct.

“Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage,” he wrote. “Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant — a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public.”

On Friday, Fox Broadcasting and National Geographic, which air the popular science program “Cosmos,” said they would investigate the allegations, which were first reported on the website Patheos. On Saturday, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, where Dr. Tyson directs the Hayden Planetarium, said it was looking into the accusations as well.

Wasn't sure where to put this.

That's very sad and shocking. He's absolutely one of the most eloquent and charismatic speakers for science in the world. If true, we're going to lose one of our most powerful advocates fighting end the world war on science.

I love deGrasse Tyson and his past work, but he has since inspired a new generation of science popularizers. Maybe none of the new ones are as prominent nor as charismatic as he, but there are more of them. If Tyson's career goes away tomorrow, the job he was doing would be carried on by others.

If the allegations prove to be true and if he doesn't adequately atone for what he did, then part of me will shed a tear, and the other part of me would look forward to seeing what Brian Cox or one of the others would do with season 2 of Cosmos.

 

[Underseer]

My take on this:

What was described in the two most recent incidents doesn't strike me to the level as needing to be made public or something that should derail his career. The 2009 incident sounds like a violation of personal space rather than any kind of sexual misconduct. NGT seems overly enthusiastic and friendly and he may inadvertently cross personal boundaries in his enthusiasm, kind of a personality thing that he needs to work on. The appropriate way to handle it is to tell him how you felt, why go public with it?

The second one seems to barely even reach the level of sexual harassment. If all of what happened is fully true, it is inappropriate, but at no point did he say anything demeaning to the woman (during the encounter) or demand sexual favors, or touch her inappropriately (the handshake thing, really?). This should also have remained an internal affair and dealt with by the production company, why does this need to be public?

Finally, the drugged rape accusation, while horrific if true, doesn't have any collaborating evidence. It is also old news, something that has been public for over eight years now and apparently not deemed credible enough as the accusation didn't really get any attention. It happened so long ago that NGT does not have any opportunity to present any kind of defense.

The comment thread here also seems to poke holes in her story. The symptoms she describes would not have happened with the drugs available in 1984 without being easily detectable from just one sip of the water she alleges was given to her:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosac...degrasse-tyson-accused-of-rape/#disqus_thread

These things often don't have corroborating evidence. That's why most powerful men are able to get away with these things even when they're guilty.

As many in the #MeToo movement have pointed out, our society has a nasty habit of simply assuming that all such accusers in these cases are lying. We need to resist that urge that comes from society's influence on us and wait for the facts to come in. As T1J points out, basic human decency demands that we at least show some modicum of empathy for the accusers instead of immediately dismissing them and their claims. We don't have to conclude that they are 100% right, but at least we can have enough decency to not automatically assume that they are definitely 100% wrong right off the bat.

 

[repoman]

I stand with Neil.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Neil de Grasse Tyson, the rapist

https://gizmodo.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-allegations-of-sexual-m-1830805358

So Neil de Grasse Tyson has been accused of sexual misconduct. What's interesting about it is the stuff he's been accused of. Since when is being creepy anything to get upset about? If men makes a move on a girl and she's completely uninterested, they will come across as creepy. It's going to happen to us all at some point. It's fine. It has to be fine and socially acceptable. But in this case, he was deemed creepy even without making a move.

So here's what he's accused of.

1. Woman wants a selfie of him. She has our solar system tattooed on her arm vanishing in under her dress sleeve towards her shoulder. Neil deGrasse Tyson lifts the sleeve takes a peak if Pluto is there. Since when has touching a woman's arm become taboo? Arms and especially hands are always ok, aren't they? Assuming it's done gently and we haven't been told to stop. Also... she approached him. She had signalled she wanted some sort of physical contact with him. Yet, got offended enough to make a thing of it.

2. He invites an assistant over after they're done shooting for wine and cheese. They've worked a lot together and it was a farewell thing. She found it creepy, even though he did nothing inappropriate. To me it sounds completely normal and the decent thing to do. I've had many assistants in my life and when we're done taken them out for a drink. It's typically how mentoring works.

BTW, I've spoken to many older male leaders of industry and when #MeToo happened they all immediately stopped mentoring young women. This is still the situation, as far as I know. Because just being alone in a room with a young women makes us targets for whatever accusation might pop up in the mind of them. And we know it'll instantly be accepted as truth.

3. A woman he was dating when he was young accuses him of drugging her and raping her while unconscious all based on that she didn't remember what had happened the night earlier.

So these are all clearly nonsense. Yet, a big deal made of them.

Can #MeToo just go away now? I hope we can all agree that at this point it's doing more bad than good? Does anybody still think the current situation was worth it?

 

[southernhybrid]

I read about this yesterday in two major newspapers. As a woman, I'm beginning to think that some women are awfully fragile, when it comes to male behavior. Maybe it's just that women my age have dealt with much crazier behavior from men, so it's hard for us to get upset over something like what happed between Neil and the two women that said he was acting creepy. He's already apologized to the two women that felt he was "creepy".

If the rape charge is true, that would be terrible, but it happened over thirty years ago and there is not any evidence to support the claim of the woman. She didn't report it until 2014. He says they dated for a brief period of time, while she says that wasn't the case. It does sound out of character for someone who comes across as a man of high character and integrity, but we've been fooled before, so I suppose anything is possible. Unless other women come forward, I'm going to side with Neil.

While it's unfortunate that so many women who are sexually assaulted aren't believed, there is a small percentage of women who make up or perhaps have convinced themselves that they were raped, perhaps out of regret for having sex with a particular man. I honestly don't know because it's never occurred to me to make a false claim against a man. Let's just hope that Neil is the one being truthful in this case.

 

[ruby sparks]

Reading in detail, items 1 & 2 seem very likely to have been 'non-sexually innocent', in that he was probably coming on to the women in both cases. So, imo, we're talking 'inappropriate flirting' at worst but not to the extent that it should lead to any serious accusations without going a bit ott.

The alleged rape one is imo the only serious one.

Unless more accusations and/or evidence emerges.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I read about this yesterday in two major newspapers. As a woman, I'm beginning to think that some women are awfully fragile, when it comes to male behavior. Maybe it's just that women my age have dealt with much crazier behavior from men, so it's hard for us to get upset over something like what happed between Neil and the two women that said he was acting creepy. He's already apologized to the two women that felt he was "creepy".

If the rape charge is true, that would be terrible, but it happened over thirty years ago and there is not any evidence to support the claim of the woman. She didn't report it until 2014. He says they dated for a brief period of time, while she says that wasn't the case. It does sound out of character for someone who comes across as a man of high character and integrity, but we've been fooled before, so I suppose anything is possible. Unless other women come forward, I'm going to side with Neil.

While it's unfortunate that so many women who are sexually assaulted aren't believed, there is a small percentage of women who make up or perhaps have convinced themselves that they were raped, perhaps out of regret for having sex with a particular man. I honestly don't know because it's never occurred to me to make a false claim against a man. Let's just hope that Neil is the one being truthful in this case.

Being fragile is fine. We all have a right to be as fragile as we want. But that doesn't mean anything. The problem here isn't women's fragility. The problem is click-journalism and a public who doesn't understand how the incentives of click-journalism work. Journalists will find whatever they can to get people to click their articles. They'll formulate it for maximum impact. The public doesn't go to a newspaper to find articles. They'll find an article pop up on social media. That means that the fact that a news site has a good track-record means less and less to the public. Tabloid-articles, fake news articles and trusted well researched articles, get about as much attention.

Add to that people's wish to get attention. We all thrive on it. And if we can't get it by being good people we'll get it by being bad people. People are awfully predictable that way. Obviously neither of these accusations were newsworthy. None of them should have gone anywhere, nor gotten any attention.

The problem here is that people seem to have lost the ability to judge how newsworthy a piece of news is.

We have no idea how big proportion of the rape accusations are fabricated. There's no way to accurately count it or in any way assess it. Whatever claim you make it will be pure guesswork. And thinking that you know how big proportion might be fabricated is worrying, because it tells us how much effort you've put into learning about this, yet have an opinion.

Her rape accusation is based on that she doesn't remember what happened that night. I'm sorry, but that means absolutely nothing. It should suggest, even to herself, that she doesn't know what happened. Yet, she made an accusation.

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree that this rape charge sounds fabricated, and from what I read about her, it sounds as if she may have some emotional problems. If a lot more women were to come out with similar stories that would give her story credibility.

I know there are some women who have emotional issues and insecurities. It's understandable that they would be easily threatened, but I was referring to women in general when I said perhaps women were becoming too fragile. Why is it necessary to go public with something like the claims of the other two women.

The woman that worked for Neil told him that she thought he was acting creepy and he apologized. That was appropriate, and that should have been the end of it. Taking it to the news wasn't necessary, imo. Women need to learn to be assertive and tell men when they act inappropriately, but what happened in these two cases didn't need to be taken public, especially since the man may lose his career and be thought of as a sexual predator. I felt the same way when a few women charged Al Franken with inappropriate touching. He lost his Senate seat because three women said that after he agreed to take a photo with them, his hand seemed to wander.. Why not just push his hand out of the way? Why not just tell him he's inappropriate and leave it at that? Maybe it's just me, but I would have done just that.


But yeah. Why was this story in both the New York Times and the Washington Post, America's two largest newspapers? If he had been recently charged with rape, that would be newsworthy. Hopefully, this will blow over and Neil deGrasse will be much more careful about how he comes across when he's around women. If other women make more serious charges against him, that would change everything. That's just my opinion. I have no intention of arguing over it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, the first two definitely don't sound like anything. The rape accusation is pretty serious if it can be corroborated.

 

[Gun Nut]

just being alone in a room with a young women makes us targets for whatever accusation might pop up in the mind of them. And we know it'll instantly be accepted as truth.

I don't ride the elevator with women at work if I am the only male there because there are no cameras in our elevator. It has always been the practice to never leave a female suspect alone with a male security professional... but now it is going the other way round too.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree that this rape charge sounds fabricated, and from what I read about her, it sounds as if she may have some emotional problems. If a lot more women were to come out with similar stories that would give her story credibility.

We only have his version. Alluding to mental problems of women victims/fabricators is the oldest trick in the book. Old as dirt. His self image is clearly as a man who is not a rapist. So his subconscious will throw out whatever it needs to do to justify that belief. It doesn't mean she's not crazy, or actually crazy. It means that we know nothing.

The woman that worked for Neil told him that she thought he was acting creepy and he apologized. That was appropriate, and that should have been the end of it. Taking it to the news wasn't necessary, imo. Women need to learn to be assertive and tell men when they act inappropriately, but what happened in these two cases didn't need to be taken public, especially since the man may lose his career and be thought of as a sexual predator. I felt the same way when a few women charged Al Franken with inappropriate touching. He lost his Senate seat because three women said that after he agreed to take a photo with them, his hand seemed to wander.. Why not just push his hand out of the way? Why not just tell him he's inappropriate and leave it at that? Maybe it's just me, but I would have done just that.

I don't agree. It has to do with personality types. Men and women behave differently. How much is learned and innate is a long discussion. But most of it seems to be innate. Being submissive is a common female personality type. These women have a hard time disappointing other people. Telling these to just grow the fuck up and stop being pussies is like telling a depressed person to snap out of it. They're not going to change. And I think all men know that some women are like this. And it's not just the submissive women. All women are a little bit more this way than men are. That's the Big Five test score called agreeableness. It's how important it is to be liked. Men like to work toward progress on some measurable scale more than women. And women like to to be liked by the group.

This means that when men and women interact men will keep to go over the line of what is appropriate. And that has to be fine, because that's not going to change. When women call men on it, even when it's just a hint, they have to pull back and apologise. No, matter what they think. The risk if we say that women should learn to say no, is that we move all the blame over onto women. That's what we call a rape culture.

But yeah. Why was this story in both the New York Times and the Washington Post, America's two largest newspapers? If he had been recently charged with rape, that would be newsworthy. Hopefully, this will blow over and Neil deGrasse will be much more careful about how he comes across when he's around women. If other women make more serious charges against him, that would change everything. That's just my opinion. I have no intention of arguing over it.

But should he though? You read the accounts. Do you really think that he needs to be more careful? I'd say he's just as careful as he needs to be. Life without a little risk, is no life at all. We've got to stop holding our celebrities to impossible standards.

I have an experience comparable to one of these. I remember a party a couple of years ago, a women I used to sleep with had gotten a new tattoo on her leg. It was partly covered up by her skirt. So I admired it and lifted up the skirt a bit. Not much. Just a tiny bit. Later I found out that she was highly distressed by that and thought it was inappropriate. I thought we knew each other better than that, having had slept together. It was an honest mistake on my part. But she proceeded to make a stink about it among our shared friends. Which I thought was a bit odd. But I apologised.

Personally I don't think lifting the skirt was the issue at all. I think she felt a bit sore that I'd rejected her earlier. I was the one who didn't want to sleep with her any more. And I think I hurt her ego. So it was complicated. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that she felt hurt by it. And if I want her in my life I need to respect that.

 

[Axulus]

Now a fourth woman alleges harassment. This time it is legitimate sexual harassment:

Now a fourth woman has told BuzzFeed News her experience of sexual harassment from Tyson. In January 2010, she recalled, she joined her then-boyfriend at a holiday party for employees of the American Museum of Natural History. Tyson, its most famous employee, drunkenly approached her, she said, making sexual jokes and propositioning her to join him alone in his office. In a 2014 email shared with BuzzFeed News, she described the incident to her own employer in order to shoot down a proposed collaboration with Tyson.

https://boingboing.net/2018/12/05/neil-degrasse-tyson.html

His prospects are starting to look dimmer. Such a shame.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now a fourth woman alleges harassment. This time it is legitimate sexual harassment:

Now a fourth woman has told BuzzFeed News her experience of sexual harassment from Tyson. In January 2010, she recalled, she joined her then-boyfriend at a holiday party for employees of the American Museum of Natural History. Tyson, its most famous employee, drunkenly approached her, she said, making sexual jokes and propositioning her to join him alone in his office. In a 2014 email shared with BuzzFeed News, she described the incident to her own employer in order to shoot down a proposed collaboration with Tyson.

https://boingboing.net/2018/12/05/n...o power over her. Again... where's the crime?

 

[ruby sparks]

Great, attention-grabbing but skewed headline for that article though.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson accused of rape and sexual harassment by 4 women.

 

[ruby sparks]

Now a fourth woman alleges harassment. This time it is legitimate sexual harassment:

Now a fourth woman has told BuzzFeed News her experience of sexual harassment from Tyson. In January 2010, she recalled, she joined her then-boyfriend at a holiday party for employees of the American Museum of Natural History. Tyson, its most famous employee, drunkenly approached her, she said, making sexual jokes and propositioning her to join him alone in his office. In a 2014 email shared with BuzzFeed News, she described the incident to her own employer in order to shoot down a proposed collaboration with Tyson.

https://boingboing.net/2018/12/05/n...nd or condemnation, but not for a legal suit.