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No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

TomC

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Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. If he had not done that he wouldn't be dead.
That seems clear enough to me.
I'm honestly not able to understand what you mean because you've constructed your sentences so poorly that it is impossible to discern their meaning.
Maybe the problem is that you can't understand things that upset your biases?
Like your assumptions about cops and violent perps(who happen to be black)? That's what it looks like to me.
Tom
 

laughing dog

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Assaulting a police officer does not result in automatic death.
Who suggested that it did?

Nobody I know about.
Tom
You wrote "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." If you agree that assaulting a police officer does not result in an automatic death, then you are tacitly admitting your statement of "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." is inaccurate.
 

TomC

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TomC

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Assaulting a police officer does not result in automatic death.
Who suggested that it did?

Nobody I know about.
Tom
You wrote "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." If you agree that assaulting a police officer does not result in an automatic death, then you are tacitly admitting your statement of "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." is inaccurate.
Bullshit. I admitted no such thing.

Mr Lyoya chose extremely dangerous behavior and wound up dead. I also mentioned another guy I know who chose extremely dangerous behavior and wound up dead. It wasn't automatic death. But the kayaker did make the choices and wound up dead.
Tom
 

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Sorry. Shooting someone in the back of the head while they’re face down on the ground isn’t in anyone’s job description.
Unless their job is “murderer”.
 

TomC

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Not his violence.
Yes, it was Lyoya's violence that resulted in his death.
Tom
No, it's because someone placed a gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger.
"Someone"?

You do realize that it wasn't a random stranger, right?
It was someone who is expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us, like Lyoya.
Tom
 

TomC

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Sorry. Shooting someone in the back of the head while they’re face down on the ground isn’t in anyone’s job description.
Unless their job is “murderer”.
Why can't you recognize that Lyoya chose that situation?
Tom
 

laughing dog

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Assaulting a police officer does not result in automatic death.
Who suggested that it did?

Nobody I know about.
Tom
You wrote "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." If you agree that assaulting a police officer does not result in an automatic death, then you are tacitly admitting your statement of "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop." is inaccurate.
Bullshit. I admitted no such thing.
Actually you did. Clearly if assaulting a police officer does not result in automatic death (something you agree with), then clearly Mr . Lyoya did not have to die from assaulting a cop.

Which means your statement "Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop" is false. Mr. Lyoya's assault started a chain of events that resulted in his death, but it was not the cause of his death nor did it necessitate his death.

Your position ignores all the immediate steps between "starting an assault" and Mr. Lyoya's death.

Why can't you recognize the police officer choose to shoot Mr. Lyoya in the back of the head?
 

Elixir

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Why can't you recognize that Lyoya chose that situation?

Takes two to tango. One was a paid professional, the other was drunk while black.
Doesn’t take a genius, Tom.
 

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You do realize that it wasn't a random stranger, right?
It was someone who is expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us,
It was someone whose job is to serve and protect the public (which includes suspects), and to ensure that suspects get due process.

He is "expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us", without them getting hurt, much less killed. Indeed it is his job to risk his life to ensure that all citizens suspected or accused of a crime are given due process, and that all citizens whether or not suspected or accused of a crime are protected against violence from any source, including police, and particularly himself.

That's a very high standard to hold police to, but it's the only standard that prevents them from just being the best equipped violent gang on the streets.

Successful policing uses minimal force. Many police appear to be unaware of this. Policing is a cooperative activity, in which police officers are employed not to hold any special status, but rather to give their full time attention to the duties that ALL citizens are duty bound to perform in defence of their fellow citizens.

If your cops aren't doing this, what you have isn't a police department: It's either a criminal gang in uniforms; or an occupying military power.
 

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Not his violence.
Yes, it was Lyoya's violence that resulted in his death.
Tom
No, it's because someone placed a gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger.
"Someone"?

You do realize that it wasn't a random stranger, right?
It was someone who is expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us, like Lyoya.
Tom
Almost every police officer in existence manages every single day to not shoot an unarmed suspect point blank in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground and the police officer is on top of him.

just this one special officer cannot manage to not shoot point lank in the back of the head an unarmed suspect who is face down on the ground under him.

You are correct: I am extremely prejudiced against police officers shooting into the back of the head, at point blank distance any unarmed suspects who are face down on the ground.

I really don’t care what color anybody is in that scenario.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Looked like "suicide by cop".
Looks like murder by cop.
I don't know about that. I think anytime you get physical with a person that has a gun, the outcome is very likely going to be tragic for the non gun person. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and all that.
Suicide requires intent. This guy was just an idiot.
No.
He was a violent drug addled criminal.

As well as an idiot. But being an idiot isn't why he's dead. It's mostly the violent part.
Tom
Suicide by cop requires actions intended to get the cop to kill the person. I see no intent here, all I see is a drunk idiot panicking because they don't want to go to jail. People sometimes do some incredibly stupid and dangerous things in such panics but that's not the same as suicide by cop.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".
 

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Almost every police officer in existence manages every single day to not shoot an unarmed suspect point blank in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground and the police officer is on top of him.

just this one special officer cannot manage to not shoot point lank in the back of the head an unarmed suspect who is face down on the ground under him.
You depict the situation like Lyoyla is innocently lying on his front sunbathing or something. He’s grappling with an armed police officer. The outcome is hardly surprising. No big loss really, violent criminals often meet a sticky end.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Suicide requires intent.
Not necessarily.

A few years back we were having a huge flood, 100 year flood. A guy up the road was a really smart guy, with a great job, and a tendency towards thrill seeking. He decided to go for a midnight kayak on the flooded river, alone. He told his wife he'd be back in a couple of hours.

It took the authorities 3 days to find his body wedged under a fallen tree. Left his wife a grieving widow, pregnant with two toddlers and no income.

Was he suicidal? Hard to say. But he did die as a result of making some super risky decisions. Whether he chose his own death is hard to say, but he did make the choices that caused it.
Tom
You're describing Darwin-award stupidity, not suicide.
 

TomC

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Almost every police officer in existence manages every single day to not shoot an unarmed suspect point blank in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground and the police officer is on top of him.

Yeah.
Funny how that doesn't make the news.

For every Lyoya, a hundred violent drug addled criminals are taken into custody without injury.
I don't remember any videos going viral showing that.
Tom
 

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Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".
Blind? Did the video show Loyoya holding the taser?
Almost every police officer in existence manages every single day to not shoot an unarmed suspect point blank in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground and the police officer is on top of him.

Yeah.
Funny how that doesn't make the news.

For every Lyoya, a hundred violent drug addled criminals are taken into custody without injury.
I don't remember any videos going viral showing that.
Tom
its less entertaining I guess. Trumpsters do love red meat and bleeding black men.
 

TomC

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You're describing Darwin-award stupidity, not suicide.
It gets hard to tell the difference.

But his risk taking got him a great job and a hot wife and left three kids. He's a Darwin winner, by evolutionary standards.

Lyoya might be as well, all too possible. He might have left more than three kids. I dunno.
Tom
 

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Toni

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Mr Lyoya is dead because he was shot in th
Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. I
Assaulting a police officer does not result in automatic death. The officer chose to shot him in the back of the head.
But you are putting your life at substantial risk if you do so.
I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

I don’t write that lightly or to be glib.
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vicinity of a police officer.
Agree or not, it's just an objective fact.

Anyhow, cops are just another socialist facet of the RW law'n order trope. We all - including black people - pool our money so we can hire them to kill black people who get drunk and violent.
/ :Sarcasm:
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.
That is major league BS. Even more than usual.
The risk of getting shot for "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" is infinitesimal. Regardless of race.
Can you even point to any cases where somebody was shot just for "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" in the last few years? And even if you could find a few, you would have to divide that number by the hundreds of millions of instances of people "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" and it would be a very small probability indeed.
So yes, your statement is BS.

I don’t write that lightly or to be glib.
You definitely do. What you wrote has no relationship with reality. It's pure propaganda.
 
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Derec

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If you shoot someone in the back, that means they are not facing you. Which means at that moment they cannot possibly be a threat to you. That makes it cowardly.
A simplistic and incorrect view.
Handwaved bs
Glad you recognize your prior statement as "handwaved bs".
Somebody not facing you can definitely be a threat to you. Not specifically to Lyoya, but generally, if a perp is armed with a firearm and running away, he or she can easily shoot back at you over the shoulder. It will not be a well-aimed shot, of course, but it will still be a threat to you (a wild shot, if it hits, is as deadly as an well-aimed one) or innocent bystanders.
Some years ago there was a case of a perp fleeing police and shooting over his shoulder. It proved lethal - he hit himself in the neck and died. Stupid games, stupid prizes.
 

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Suicide requires intent.
Not necessarily.
Yes, necessarily. Suicide is intentional death of oneself. Jebus, if Loren Pechtel is saying it isn't suicide by cop...
A few years back we were having a huge flood, 100 year flood. A guy up the road was a really smart guy, with a great job, and a tendency towards thrill seeking. He decided to go for a midnight kayak on the flooded river, alone. He told his wife he'd be back in a couple of hours.

It took the authorities 3 days to find his body wedged under a fallen tree. Left his wife a grieving widow, pregnant with two toddlers and no income.

Was he suicidal? Hard to say. But he did die as a result of making some super risky decisions.
That is negligence death which is not suicide.
 

Gospel

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As well as an idiot. But being an idiot isn't why he's dead. It's mostly the violent part.
Tom
1652967376067.png
Who knows what all caused him to try to deal with the traffic stop by assaulting a cop. But he did choose to do that and wound up dead.
It happens.
Tom

Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. If he had not done that he wouldn't be dead.
1652967345063.png



Only in your imagination does what Lyoya did fit the description of violence & assault. He was resisting arrest, evading arrest, and trying to run away. But let me guess you think my pointing this out is my supporting Lyoya running away or resisting arrest right? I'll save you time. No.
 

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If you shoot someone in the back, that means they are not facing you. Which means at that moment they cannot possibly be a threat to you. That makes it cowardly.
A simplistic and incorrect view.
Handwaved bs
Glad you recognize your prior statement as "handwaved bs".
That is an dishonest characterization.
Somebody not facing you can definitely be a threat to you.
You failed basic reading because I wrote "Which means at that moment..".

Not specifically to Lyoya, but generally, if a perp is armed with a firearm and running away, he or she can easily shoot back at you over the shoulder. It will not be a well-aimed shot, of course, but it will still be a threat to you (a wild shot, if it hits, is as deadly as an well-aimed one) or innocent bystanders....
A shot that is not aimed at you is not a threat to you. Duh.

More importantly, in the context of the discussion, Mr. Lyoya was not armed with a firearm.
 

Gospel

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I wonder how it is someone can be charged with resisting arrest and not assault. Could it be they are not one and the same thing?
I wonder how it is someone can be charged with evading arrest and not assault. Could it be they are not one and the same thing?
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

That must cause a lot of anxiety for the substantial number of black people that are police officers etc.
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.
That is major league BS. Even more than usual.
The risk of getting shot for "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" is infinitesimal. Regardless of race.
Can you even point to any cases where somebody was shot just for "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" in the last few years? And even if you could find a few, you would have to divide that number by the hundreds of millions of instances of people "being in the vincinty[sic] of a police officer" and it would be a very small probability indeed.
So yes, your statement is BS.

I don’t write that lightly or to be glib.
You definitely do. What you wrote has no relationship with reality. It's pure propaganda.
Breonna Taylor, Botham Jean. Legend Smalls survived being hit in the head by a police bullet but fragments remain in his skull. I don't know how the 1 year old is doing now but he was intensive care for a long time.

I don't understand where you get 'propaganda' from my words.
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

That must cause a lot of anxiety for the substantial number of black people that are police officers etc.
Apparently police officers frequently fire their weapons when they are afraid.
 

Gospel

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

That must cause a lot of anxiety for the substantial number of black people that are police officers etc.

Black police officers are no less susceptible to making mistakes than white officers. The last time I got pulled over for just rolling down my fucking window was by a black officer. You yourself acknowledge that the crime rate amongst minorities is higher than that of whites. which in fact makes an officer whether white or black more likely to mistake me for a criminal with ill intentions than they would you.
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

That must cause a lot of anxiety for the substantial number of black people that are police officers etc.
Apparently police officers frequently fire their weapons when they are afraid.
Yeah but isn't it just the white police officers that do that?
 

TSwizzle

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Black police officers are no less susceptible to making mistakes than white officers.
OK, but I don't think I said they weren't.

The last time I got pulled over for just rolling down my fucking window was by a black officer. You yourself acknowledge that the crime rate amongst minorities is higher than that of whites. which in fact makes an officer whether white or black more likely to mistake me for a criminal with ill intentions than they would you.
And you lived to tell the tale. Did the officer not shoot you for some reason?
 

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I agree that any black person is putting their life at substantial risk simply by being in the vincinity of a police officer.

That must cause a lot of anxiety for the substantial number of black people that are police officers etc.
Apparently police officers frequently fire their weapons when they are afraid.
Yeah but isn't it just the white police officers that do that?
Black police officers are more likely to be charged with a crime when they kill somebody be.
 

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And you lived to tell the tale. Did the officer not shoot you for some reason?

:picardfacepalm: No. I wasn't shot, but it would have been nice to roll my window down without having to worry about taxpayers money getting wasted over it.
 

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Black police officers are no less susceptible to making mistakes than white officers. The last time I got pulled over for just rolling down my fucking window was by a black officer. You yourself acknowledge that the crime rate amongst minorities is higher than that of whites. which in fact makes an officer whether white or black more likely to mistake me for a criminal with ill intentions than they would you.
Exactly.

Here's what I see as the big picture problem. YBM, as a demographic group, are notoriously violent. Far more so than the next most violent demographic, YWM, much less other people. As a result, YBM are treated differently by cops in general. Cops are more suspicious, less respectful, quicker to draw a weapon, that sort of thing. It's human nature.

The flip side is this. YBM are consistently treated worse than other people by the police. Law abiding Joe College, pillar of his church youth group, is also treated with abrasive disregard. So even he develops a bad attitude towards cops in general. It's human nature.

It's a vicious cycle.
Add to that the guns and drugs and cut-rate mental health care the USA is known for, as well as the modern culture of entitlement and victimhood and divisiveness, and we've got huge social problems.

Demonizing and defunding the police isn't going to make anything better, quite the contrary.
Tom
 

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Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. If he had not done that he wouldn't be dead.
That seems clear enough to me.
I'm honestly not able to understand what you mean because you've constructed your sentences so poorly that it is impossible to discern their meaning.
Maybe the problem is that you can't understand things that upset your biases?
Like your assumptions about cops and violent perps(who happen to be black)? That's what it looks like to me.
Tom
Maybe the problem is that you won’t write unambiguous sentences. Maybe you don’t want to be called out on your biases the way you are so fond of calling out those who disagree with you so you write gobblety goop to try to hide your bias abs provide plausible deniability when you get called on it.

Only a fool does not recognize that there is an enormous problem with gun violence in the US, or that police are part of it. Too many innocent people are killed by police, including children. Including infants. Disproportionately black.
 

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Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. If he had not done that he wouldn't be dead.

Well, he might be. People who drive with that much alcohol in their system tend to wind up dead, or worse.
Which part of this did you find ambiguous?
Mr Lyoya is dead because he assaulted a cop. If he had not done that he wouldn't be dead.
That seems clear enough to me.
I'm honestly not able to understand what you mean because you've constructed your sentences so poorly that it is impossible to discern their meaning.
Maybe the problem is that you can't understand things that upset your biases?
Like your assumptions about cops and violent perps(who happen to be black)? That's what it looks like to me.
Tom
Maybe the problem is that you won’t write unambiguous sentences. Maybe you don’t want to be called out on your biases the way you are so fond of calling out those who disagree with you so you write gobblety goop to try to hide your bias abs provide plausible deniability when you get called on it.

Only a fool does not recognize that there is an enormous problem with gun violence in the US, or that police are part of it. Too many innocent people are killed by police, including children. Including infants. Disproportionately black.
I try to think and post with nuance. If you find that unintelligible the problem isn't me.
Tom
 

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Not his violence.
Yes, it was Lyoya's violence that resulted in his death.
Tom
No, it's because someone placed a gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger.
"Someone"?

You do realize that it wasn't a random stranger, right?
It was someone who is expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us, like Lyoya.
Tom
We all realize it wasn't a random stranger but a trained police officer. Rational people object to police officers executing suspects.
 

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Black police officers are no less susceptible to making mistakes than white officers. The last time I got pulled over for just rolling down my fucking window was by a black officer. You yourself acknowledge that the crime rate amongst minorities is higher than that of whites. which in fact makes an officer whether white or black more likely to mistake me for a criminal with ill intentions than they would you.
Exactly.

Here's what I see as the big picture problem. YBM, as a demographic group, are notoriously violent. Far more so than the next most violent demographic, YWM, much less other people. As a result, YBM are treated differently by cops in general. Cops are more suspicious, less respectful, quicker to draw a weapon, that sort of thing. It's human nature.
No, that would be failed training for police officers.
Demonizing and defunding the police isn't going to make anything better, quite the contrary.
Trouble is, being critical of police shootings is viewed as "demonizing" the police these days. Any talk of oversight is responded to with anger. We have no fair legal system in place to police the police.
 

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Not his violence.
Yes, it was Lyoya's violence that resulted in his death.
Tom
No, it's because someone placed a gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger.
"Someone"?

You do realize that it wasn't a random stranger, right?
It was someone who is expected to deal with violent drug addled criminals who are a danger to the rest of us, like Lyoya.
Tom
We all realize it wasn't a random stranger but a trained police officer. Rational people object to police officers executing suspects.
"Executing" is a pretty damning charge... but shooting a person, who is on the ground, in the back of the head is galaxies away from "self-defense". And it sounds hard to include the word "justified" regarding such a shooting.
 

Gospel

Unify Africa
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
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Black police officers are no less susceptible to making mistakes than white officers. The last time I got pulled over for just rolling down my fucking window was by a black officer. You yourself acknowledge that the crime rate amongst minorities is higher than that of whites. which in fact makes an officer whether white or black more likely to mistake me for a criminal with ill intentions than they would you.
Exactly.

Here's what I see as the big picture problem. YBM, as a demographic group, are notoriously violent. Far more so than the next most violent demographic, YWM, much less other people. As a result, YBM are treated differently by cops in general. Cops are more suspicious, less respectful, quicker to draw a weapon, that sort of thing. It's human nature.

The flip side is this. YBM are consistently treated worse than other people by the police. Law abiding Joe College, pillar of his church youth group, is also treated with abrasive disregard. So even he develops a bad attitude towards cops in general. It's human nature.

It's a vicious cycle.
Add to that the guns and drugs and cut-rate mental health care the USA is known for, as well as the modern culture of entitlement and victimhood and divisiveness, and we've got huge social problems.

Demonizing and defunding the police isn't going to make anything better, quite the contrary.
Tom

You seem to get it. So you do understand why this guy


was treated the way he was right? Because the police didn't see the tag, they immediately thought foul play, and when they discovered the driver was black that didn't put them at ease at all. In fact, he now needed to bow down to however they wanted to execute the law. The military gear and his explanation didn't help either because YBM dress like that sometimes & always claims they dindu nuffin. Heck YBM in military gear is probably a black nationalist.

Regardless, it's not the officer's fault that YBMs are known to be bad actors so it's not their fault when they become bad actors themselves as a result.

No worries America, still
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