• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
10,605
Location
Slouching towards Bethlehem
Remember last summer when a mass grave containing the remains of hundreds of children was found on the grounds of a former government boarding school for indigenous children in British Columbia, Canada?

In the seven months since this shocking news broke, not one body has been found, and not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question. Contrary to the worldwide media coverage last summer, nothing, in fact, has been “discovered” on the grounds of the Kamloops Indian Residential School.

In a healthy society, this would be a scandal. A story that grabbed headlines for a week and inspired arson attacks that destroyed dozens of churches in Canada turns out to be based on flimsy, unexamined evidence at best, and an outright, pernicious lie at worst.

You might remember the overblown coverage. CNN breathlessly reported on what it called the “gruesome discovery.” The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation appended a warning label to its coverage, saying “this story contains details some readers may find distressing.” The Washington Post declared that news of the mass grave had “dragged the horror of Canada’s mistreatment of Indigenous people back into the spotlight.” Every corporate outlet took it for granted that a mass grave containing hundreds of corpses had indeed been discovered—corpses of children, no less. They reported it as fact.

Politicians quickly fell in line. Canadian Prime Minster Justin Trudeau tweeted that the discovery “is a painful reminder of that dark and shameful chapter of our country’s history.” British Columbia Premier John Horgan said he was “horrified and heartbroken.” The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights called it “a large scale human rights violation,” and called on Canada and the Vatican to investigate.

...
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,080
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
Yup. The OP would have us believe that since not one single soldier has been exhumed from Arlington, no American ever died in any war.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
Yup. The OP would have us believe that since not one single soldier has been exhumed from Arlington, no American ever died in any war.
Metaphorically.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,080
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
Yup. The OP would have us believe that since not one single soldier has been exhumed from Arlington, no American ever died in any war.
Metaphorically.
:rimshot:
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Jarhyn said:
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
If you look at the headlines in the mainstream media at the time, there was no apparent contention: rather, it was accepted that the graves had been found on the basis of the radar evidence.
 

Gospel

Warning Level 9999
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
2,905
Location
Florida
Gender
Masculine
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
From what I recall some articles stated that actual remains of children were found.

For example;
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

While I don't agree with the church burning I can understand why it happened. It's not like the indigenous folks had a wonderful history with the catholic church.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
From what I recall some articles stated that actual remains of children were found.

For example;
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

While I don't agree with the church burning I can understand why it happened. It's not like the indigenous folks had a wonderful history with the catholic church.
So, let's see here:
Thread title: Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada

The caveat of the article: the reason no bodies have been found is that none have been looked for.

Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
 
Last edited:

thebeave

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2001
Messages
3,400
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
They need to start digging at the radar sites to get to the facts of this once and for all. On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
They need to start digging at the radar sites to get to the facts of this once and for all. On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.
I'll point out that the church was burned after the church started gaslighting, ostensibly to prevent even a single shovel-full of dirt from having been excavated from the site in question.

People were and are angry that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for.
 

Gospel

Warning Level 9999
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
2,905
Location
Florida
Gender
Masculine
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,749
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
Yes. How is it that Metaphor's brain comes to produce such behavior. That's the trillion dollar question.
The person who performed the ground-penetrating radar survey, a “conflict anthropologist” named Sarah Beaulieu, said at news conference back in July that the “probable gravesites” could not be confirmed unless excavations were done. Her investigation covered only two acres of the total 160-acre site and, she said, had “barely scratched the surface.”
This is the same thing that is happening in other places of genocide. Metaphor's brain is obviously experiencing an emotional takeover aka nervous breakdown.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
Yes. How is it that Metaphor's brain comes to produce such behavior. That's the trillion dollar question.
Well, the article covers it up. Metaphor is just delivering the article. There are other possibilities than maliciousness. We discussed this in the covid thread.

A better framing might be "why does metaphor keep delivering such articles?"
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,749
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.
The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,592
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
So the OP is sharing an article that has discovered the ugly truth of Canada... a pandemic era discovery hasn't been advanced upon yet with an excavation of the suspected burial site. *cue dramatic music*

Meanwhile, we still have:
As well as other on-going investigations as several other Residential Schools for First Nations.

This might also be a good time to note that digging up unmarked graves: 1) complicated due to integrity of the site and uh... preventing desecration of the remains and 2) costs money.

And just to make things clear, the author of that article is an asshole.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
There are other possibilities than maliciousness.
Ya mean malice.
As in "Never ascribe to malice that which stupidity is sufficient to explain".
-
Hanlon's razor
So you are saying what?
What I'm catching as corollary to all this is that the thread is either malicious or stupid.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,080
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
20,923
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Jarhyn said:
So, let's see here:
Thread title: Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada

The caveat of the article: the reason no bodies have been found is that none have been looked for.

Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
To utter the statement "Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia" is misguided behavior.

No, it is not the case that the remains of 215 children were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.



There was a claim based on interpretation of radar information that 215 unmarked graves of children had been so found. No one has ever excavated the site. A similar procedure was used in Edmonton, where 34 graves were claimed to have been found by radar. In that case, though, they excavated to get to the remains. However, they found
nothing at all.


Source:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-mystery-of-canada-s-indigenous-mass-graves
 

Trausti

Contributor
Warning Level 1
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,736
Location
Northwest
Gender
Who/Whom
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Conspiracy theory that China hyped this bullshit story to punish Canada for criticizing China’s treatment of the Uyghurs. Woke ideology infecting Canadians with self hatred made it a smashing success.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Jarhyn said:
The caveat of the article: the reason no bodies have been found is that none have been looked for.
As par for the course, you try your very best to ignore the most important part.

As usual, I dealt with a part about which I found disagreement, not with one about which I found no disagreement.

You claimed "Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.".

I disagree. As explained, the claim is false. You went on to accuse "To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.", and the allegedly covered-up statement was the false statement that you repeated. Again, I dealt with a statement I disagreed with - because, well, it was false.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
It's interesting that you find so much time and effort and energy caring to obfuscate that evidence exists of hundreds of unmarked graves, as documented and linked to, so much that you call it false.

not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
You are here obfuscating that.

Oooh, havent seen the bodies with your own eyes, haven't dug em up yet, must not be there.

Maybe stick your head further in that sand and you might find them that way?
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
10,605
Location
Slouching towards Bethlehem
The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
The title is misleading without further context, but so were all the original titles when the story first circulated - the ones that implied bodies had been found, instead of implied via a radar technique.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
10,605
Location
Slouching towards Bethlehem
I'm just gonna look right here and say that the fact that if not a single shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question it is apparent that the reason no bodies have been found is not that none have been looked for; that remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.

The title seems misleading insofar as that it seems to imply there are no bodies. That remains in contention at least until many a shovel-full of dirt has been excavated from the site in question.
Yup. The OP would have us believe that since not one single soldier has been exhumed from Arlington, no American ever died in any war.
How does the OP imply that?
 

Trausti

Contributor
Warning Level 1
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,736
Location
Northwest
Gender
Who/Whom
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
The insinuation is that these were Pol Pot type mass graves. But these were simply graveyards where the wooden crosses had disintegrated or been removed. There’s nothing here that the nuns killed anyone. Silly moral panic.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
10,605
Location
Slouching towards Bethlehem
From what I recall some articles stated that actual remains of children were found.

For example;
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

While I don't agree with the church burning I can understand why it happened. It's not like the indigenous folks had a wonderful history with the catholic church.
So, let's see here:
Thread title: Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada

The caveat of the article: the reason no bodies have been found is that none have been looked for.
It is true that nobody has exhumed the site, but that is not the only condition that would lead to no bodies being found. Another is that there may not be any bodies at all.

My memory of the original article is that the bodies were 'found'--that there was no contention. Perhaps the headline title of 'radar technique implies mass grave' wasn't as clickbaity.

Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.

Except that isn't the reality. They were not found.
To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
Then stop doing it.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Warning Level 1
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,736
Location
Northwest
Gender
Who/Whom
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.


Sophie Pierre, former chief of the St Mary’s Indian Band and a survivor of the school itself, told Global News that while the news of the unmarked graves had a painful impact on her and surrounding communities, they had always known the graves were there.

“There’s no discovery, we knew it was there, it’s a graveyard,” Pierre said. “The fact there are graves inside a graveyard shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.”
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.


Sophie Pierre, former chief of the St Mary’s Indian Band and a survivor of the school itself, told Global News that while the news of the unmarked graves had a painful impact on her and surrounding communities, they had always known the graves were there.

“There’s no discovery, we knew it was there, it’s a graveyard,” Pierre said. “The fact there are graves inside a graveyard shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.”
Hundreds of unmarked graves of children in an undocumented graveyard.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.
 

Trausti

Contributor
Warning Level 1
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,736
Location
Northwest
Gender
Who/Whom
Basic Beliefs
Atheist Norse
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.


Sophie Pierre, former chief of the St Mary’s Indian Band and a survivor of the school itself, told Global News that while the news of the unmarked graves had a painful impact on her and surrounding communities, they had always known the graves were there.

“There’s no discovery, we knew it was there, it’s a graveyard,” Pierre said. “The fact there are graves inside a graveyard shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.”
Hundreds of unmarked graves of children in an undocumented graveyard.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.

How were they separated from their families? They were kept at the school and not allowed to leave? The nuns might have been mean, fitting stereotype, but this is all a bunch of nothing.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
20,923
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.


Sophie Pierre, former chief of the St Mary’s Indian Band and a survivor of the school itself, told Global News that while the news of the unmarked graves had a painful impact on her and surrounding communities, they had always known the graves were there.

“There’s no discovery, we knew it was there, it’s a graveyard,” Pierre said. “The fact there are graves inside a graveyard shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.”
Hundreds of unmarked graves of children in an undocumented graveyard.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.

How were they separated from their families? They were kept at the school and not allowed to leave? The nuns might have been mean, fitting stereotype, but this is all a bunch of nothing.
Educate yourself here- Indigenous Canadian Children forcibly separate from parents - or here An Ugly Canadian tradition. Yes, the children were forcibly taken from their families and not allowed to leave.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Let's be clear, graves and remains were found.
Last month the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.


"... we knew it was there, it’s a graveyard,” Pierre said. “The fact there are graves inside a graveyard shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.”
Hundreds of unmarked graves of children in an undocumented graveyard.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

...

How were they separated from their families? They were kept at the school and not allowed to leave? The nuns might have been mean, fitting stereotype, but this is all a bunch of nothing.
The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Gospel said:
From what I recall some articles stated that actual remains of children were found.
Yes, that did happen, and that makes the mistake made back then understandable. But now we know better.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Jarhyn said:
It's interesting that you find so much time and effort and energy caring to obfuscate that evidence exists of hundreds of unmarked graves, as documented and linked to, so much that you call it false.
It's interesting that you make damaging accusations against me that are false and you should know they are false on the basis of the evidence available to you, and yet you are sincere.

First, what I call "false" is your statement:
Jarhyn said:
Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.
I call the statement false because it is false. Now, I get why you would have been mistaken at first, after all major news websites repeated that false statement in the past. However, by the time this thread was started, there was readily available conclusive evidence that it was false.

Second, remember, you used that statement to say that

Jarhyn said:
To utter one statement to cover up another statement when it is known to cover the first statement is fucked up and evil behavior.
making false and disparaging accusations against either Metaphor or me or both. Of course, no one was trying to cover up your statement "Reality: the remains of 215 children, some as young as 3 years old, were found buried on the site of what was once Canada’s largest Indigenous residential school near Kamloops, British Columbia.", since it was obviously false by the time this thread was started, so even if any of us were a caricature villain wanting to engage in fucked up and evil behavior just for the pure pleasure of it, we would not choose to try to cover up that which never happened.

Third, again, I usually post to reply when there is some disagreement, not when there isn't.


Jarhyn said:
They were just not found by excavating dirt.

They were found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found: through observation of their effects on nature, using imaging technologies.

We do not have to exhume a corpse to know it is in the ground.

We have found the bodies, we just have not dug them up and looked at them.
No, they were not found in the same way the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or the planets of distant stars are found.
To be more precise, they were found in the same way that the unmarked graves at Camsell Hospital site were found: using ground-penetrating radar and interpreting some spots as unmarked graves. In the case of Camsell Hospital, some people actually decided to dig up the bodies and look at them. However, it turned out they found zero bodies. That sort of makes the case for the other 215 bodies much, much weaker, on the basis of the evidence available to a reasonable reader, so unless you have some inside evidence on the investigation - which you have not shown at all -, it is not epistemically rational on your part to assess that those 215 bodies have in fact been found, or that they exist in the first place. How about we wait and see what happens if someone chooses to dig, instead of jumping to the conclusion that 215 bodies were found?
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.
Okay, so it is not a good idea to make accusations of other crimes, when the evidence is weak.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way. :unsure:
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.
They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.
Okay, so it is not a good idea to make accusations of other crimes, when the evidence is weak.
The evidence is

we knew it was there... shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

Doesn't seem weak to me, given that everyone knew it was there, to the point where it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone
 

Bullmoose Too

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
170
Location
Ohio.
Basic Beliefs
Awesomeness.
The graves should be exhumed and any corpses found should be put under forensic investigation.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,640
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
I'm not familiar with Canadian laws regarding the recovery of remains, the excavation of suspected mass graves, or any similar laws, rules and regulations, or how much they differ between provinces or whether there is national law and what takes precedence. I am not aware of what the custom, what religious rites, what circumstances the various tribes and bands of First Nations people in Canada have with regards to disturbing remains of their people. I am ignorant of what the implications are concerning the overlap and conflict between such laws and the customs, rites and laws of the various legal entities involved. I imagine it's all very complex. I am fairly certain that at least some of us have had the experience of needing to wait for various local municipalities and governing boards to conduct their studies, examine the various laws and regulations to know that these are very complex issues that do not simply get resolved on the timeline of conservative media and their readers.

Even if it were not currently winter in Canada with a frost line that is deep enough to make any excavation fairly ambitious or even impossible. Even if there were not a pandemic.

Does anyone care that the founder of The Federalist is the husband of Megan McCain? Or that The Federalist's rating for journalistic fairness and bias has moved in recent years from Leans Right to Far Right?

Is it possible that there are issues involved that none of us is sufficiently familiar with to comment with any sort of expertise?
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,749
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
We have been reading articles about Tulsa lately and the 1921 riot in which hundreds of blacks were murdered. Those graves have not been unearthed yet either. Must be fake news too.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
Jarhyn said:
Doesn't seem weak to me, given that everyone knew it was there, to the point where it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone
Did you read the article you linked to?

Look at your link: the person who says they knew it was a graveyard, also says the graves were unmarked because the markings were wooden crosses that deteriorated over time and were removed or burned eventually.
Assuming that she is correct about the above (and if she's not, the evidence of her testimony is indeed very weak), what was the crime here? It does not look like a cover-up of mass-murder. Look at what she says:


According to Pierre, wooden crosses that originally marked the gravesites had been burned or deteriorated over the years. Using a wooden marker at a gravesite remains a practice that continues to this day in many Indigenous communities across Canada.
So, some graves are unmarked in a cemetery because wooden crosses deteriorated over time and/or were removed. That's not at all evidence of the sort of crime the accusations in re. Kamloops were about. On that note, she says:

However, she said the findings at the cemetery near Cranbrook isn’t the same as the other findings at other residential schools throughout the country.

“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

So, you'd have to look at the evidence of the other sites, not the one you linked to.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites
I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Buenos Aires
Basic Beliefs
non-theist
“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites
I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.

I'm going to point out that you are making a false statement about what I am doing, though I do not know whether you realize that. I am saying that the person you cited as providing evidence in the site in question, was not doing so. And yes, she said that what happened in other places - unmarked graves not in graveyards - was horrible. In fact, the same article goes on to say

Hundreds of unmarked graves, many believed to be children, have been found near residential school sites across the country recently, including in Kamloops, B.C., and the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan.
However, they got the Kamloops case wrong: there is some evidence of unmarked graves; there is no conclusive evidence of them, so that they can claim they were "found". And what about the other sites, not in cemeteries? I don't know. I have not seen any good evidence. But you are following the case, right? So, do you have strong evidence from any of them? If so, please post a link.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,062
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites
I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.

I'm going to point out that you are making a false statement about what I am doing, though I do not know whether you realize that. I am saying that the person you cited as providing evidence <unnecessary qualifier>, was not doing so. And yes, she said that what happened in other places - unmarked graves not in graveyards - was horrible. In fact, the same article goes on to say

Hundreds of unmarked graves, many believed to be children, have been found near residential school sites across the country recently, including in Kamloops, B.C., and the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan.
...there is some evidence of unmarked graves...; <No-true-scotsman>. And what about the other sites, not in cemeteries? I don't know. <Argument from Incredulity/Ignorance>.
Of course, you want to downplay the fact that there are bodies buried in the obvious graves to which as you mention, there is evidence.

The op title is misleading:

There is some evidence of unmarked graves, and the only reason we have "not found bodies" that way is because none have been looked for that way.
 
Top Bottom